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pelliott
Oct 10, 2002, 5:36 AM
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I have a partner who insists on girth hitching his wired stoppers when he sets up a top rope. I have told him that I won't be climbing on his top ropes if he plans on continuing this practice. What do the rest of you think? Am I being too picky?
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krustyklimber
Oct 10, 2002, 5:57 AM
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No you are not...
Perfect practice, makes perfect sense.
His way has too many flaws to list.
Jeff
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tanner
Oct 10, 2002, 6:22 AM
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I wouldn't dick around with saftey. If somthing Is in place to protect me I want to do every thing I can to make it work its best.
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tigerbythetail
Oct 10, 2002, 7:27 AM
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Girth hitching slings (nylon) around wire cable? Scary. In a fall or high load situation there is a very good chance the cable will cut the nylon. Don't be cheap and use a biner if that's what is needed.
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crux_clipper
Oct 10, 2002, 9:09 AM
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Why use a girth hitch? Its just so much easier to clip a biner. Your right to say you climb on his topropes. Safety come first. If your not comfortable in a situation, just back away.
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astone
Oct 10, 2002, 12:00 PM
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Most stopper manufacturers specifically warn against girth hitching slings through a stopper's cable. It is a bad idea indeed. It gets even scarier with the thinner wires.
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tradguy
Oct 10, 2002, 12:17 PM
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I've seen some nuts/stoppers that have the wire of the clipping loop encased in some sort of plastic, and if he was girth hitching those, it might not be quite as bad, but it's still a poor practice. Does he say why he does it this way? Does he just lack extra biners or something? Have you explained to him the problems with that setup?
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fo_d
Oct 10, 2002, 12:31 PM
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Yeah, that was my partner that started this thread. you see, he likes to play tit for tat and ever since I complained about the way he belays me on lead, hes been pecking away at anything he can, and now we take the battle into a public forum.
So let me say a few words in my defense: after leading this route I set up a TR system with 3 pieces of pro and equalized them for the TR (the webbing was needed to so my cordalette* would make it to the edge) the problem was that after the lead I was short on small lockers so on one of the 3 pieces I hitched the webbing around the wire, I have done this before and unless I find good cause not to (or when I always have enough lockers on hand) I probably do it again. just a few things to remember about this situation:
this is a static load and would probably take days or maybe weeks of constant loading and unloading to do any damage to the webbing.
Its one of 3 pieces, the other 2 were not set this way. its called redundancy
I understand this is not ideal, but dangerous? I dont think so, We are not talking about doing this with a piece placed on lead and I'm a little suprised some people were so quick to jump in and proclaim it dangerous.
Les
P.S. If I do find out this is the worst thing in the world to do and that I've been placing many people in danger, I'll change my ways, but I'll be damn if I'll tell pelliott bucause I wont be climbing with him anymore.
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atg200
Oct 10, 2002, 1:22 PM
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that is a horrible thing to do les. you may as well not bother placing the piece because if the other two fail the webbing will likely just cut anyway. use a regular biner and if you can't even spare that for a toprope go buy a few more biners - they aren't that expensive.
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jumaringjeff
Oct 10, 2002, 1:30 PM
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One of the first things I learned about wired pro is to never connect anything to them directly except for a biner.
Also, planning ahead can save you from situations like this. I usually rack 2 lockers and 3 or 4 ovals for anchor use only.
-jj
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cragchica
Oct 10, 2002, 1:44 PM
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In that scenario, any 'biner - locker or not - is better than no 'biner at all. If you insist on extra safety (though this doesn't seem to be the case) use two standards with opposing gates. I have never finished a pitch without at least a couple extra 'biners. Even if you do have to borrow one from a cam or other piece of pro, for safety's sake, you might as well use it.
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jamison
Oct 10, 2002, 2:44 PM
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f,
I believe that it is dangerous and should not be done. However, in the situation you described (using it as one of the three anchors). It is probably better than nothing.
On the other hand, if the sling is loaded, it might be damaged slightly without failing. Only to fail another time when it is the primary sling.
So I would agree with the original post in that it is not a good idea. I would say use it as the third anchor with a bit of slack, but then you increase the chance for it to get cut if it loads.
Buy extra ovals. They are cheap.
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tradklime
Oct 10, 2002, 2:47 PM
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If for whatever reason you want to attach a sling directly to a wire or bolt hanger, etc., do not girth hitch it. Double the runner up through the wire loop. Still not a recommended practice though.
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petsfed
Oct 10, 2002, 2:53 PM
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Since the force is distributed equally on that runner, it will have a constant force applied to it, and the runner will be cut. Not in months or weeks or days, but hours. Less if anybody falls. If you double up on the carabiners (a good idea even with locking biners) you should be all right.
I would earnestly suggest to both of you that you find different partners if this "belay" thing started this and you're still harping on each other. Take some time off maybe, climb with other people. The climbing partnership is not unlike a romantic relationship in that you need to communicate and respond to your partner for it to survive. Just don't get all mushy or anything, unless you're actually dating, in which case, whatever.
Edited for literacy, spelling, and for being a jerk. Apologies all.
[ This Message was edited by: petsfed on 2002-10-10 08:50 ]
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pelliott
Oct 10, 2002, 5:02 PM
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Yes. There has been a lot of misunderstanding in this relationship. I was offended originally when Les questioned my belaying but I got over it. Evidently he did not. I mentioned this thing purely for safety and I intended it to remain anonymous. Les is the one who jumped in and confessed.
I am truly sorry if I have hurt Les's reputation on this site. He has been a great partner and I have nothing but respect for his dedication to the sport of climbing. I have enjoyed climbing with him. Evidently he does not want to continue the relationship. I guess I will move on.
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wlderdude
Oct 10, 2002, 5:05 PM
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I don't want to take sides, but when it is part of a three piece equalized anchor, I don't think it is really that unsafe. That is of course assuming that there is a knot of some kind such that if that loop DID break that the other loops would not be damaged.
The point that I think the point fo_d was amking is that he had 2 pieces, but in order to add the third (A VERY GOOD PRACTICE), he had had to use the webbing to cable. If there was another way to do it, such as non locking biners or even a rap ring girth hitch set up, man that was a bad call.
When I was testing some nuts I made, I looped some webbing around the cable to see what would happen. It was plastic coated 3/32" cable, so the diameter was 1/8". The webbing broke at the cable, but it took an awful lot more than I thought it would to break it. The webbing had strained to the point where it was obviously worn all over the length of it. Maybe if the steel were not coated it would have sliced right through it, I don't know.
The point is that that piece would have absorbed a lot of energy had a significant fall happened, even if it did break. Think of it as a screamer. Did it add redunacy? yes. Was it better than not placing the nut? yes.
Do I ever plan on doing it, NO! I will haul all the gear I think I will ever need up with me so I never have to do that!
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curt
Oct 10, 2002, 5:51 PM
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I agree with wlderdude. There is a difference between what is RECOMMENDED and what is SAFE. In the case given here, I do not think the set-up was unsafe--assuming an accurate description was given. Here is my reasoning:
This was for at Top Rope set-up. Therefore, the force of a fall on the anchor system (unless a lot of slack was intentionally left in the belay) should be pretty small. If you have a climber weighing 150lbs., for example, the maximum load on the anchor will be around 300lbs + or - a little bit. If the anchor was equalized, which it sounds like--because a cordelette was used, then the force on eac of the three pieces would only be around 100lbs. A nylon sling, in good condition, is certainly not going to cut over the wire of a nut under 100lbs. of force.
That said, I am not recommending this, only pointing out that in this situation it was probably safe to climb on.
Curt
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jds100
Oct 10, 2002, 5:58 PM
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That setup is dangerous for TR or anything else. If it was an emergency, so be it, but that one emergency should teach you to make sure that you have enough gear from now on, that you should never have to use that setup again. When you say that you "have done this before", that would scare me off.
[ This Message was edited by: jds100 on 2002-10-10 10:59 ]
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danl
Oct 10, 2002, 6:07 PM
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Ok this wasn't the smartest thing in the world to do but better than nothing I agreee with the analysis that it probably would have held. Hind sight being 20/20 I would say the smartest thing to do would have been to set it down climb one piece pull the peice and scavenge a biner from that piece.
I also find it hard to believe that you had not a single biner left over at this point. although it is possible
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tradguy
Oct 10, 2002, 6:17 PM
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Another possibility - place a cam or a slung hex, where you could girth hitch soft cord/runner to soft sling.
Also, you could take the biner off your chalkbag or nut tool, assuming you hadn't already used these.
Another possibility would be to girth hitch around the HEAD of the nut after it was set - kind of like slinging a chockstone. I've never tried that before, but it seem like it should work.
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drector
Oct 10, 2002, 6:24 PM
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I think that if you are not willing to defend every action when climbing then you should not be doing it (setting anchors, belaying, etc...). If you cannot defend your practice by saying it is "by-the-book" and safe then you should reevaluation your style/technique or come up with a darned good explanation as to why you are risking the life of your partner. I do believe that there are good explanations but it had better be darned good. It is totally acceptable for any partner to question the other guys actions.
Girth hitching a nut? Maybe you should have left your belay biner up there? Nut tool biner?
Did you climb up a second time on top-rope and fix it now that you had good gear? Probably not so I would question that too.
And the guy didn't mention names so it's not really an issue that someone is taking this out on a public forum. It was a legitimate question.
Dave
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wlderdude
Oct 10, 2002, 6:37 PM
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Something to remember.
The Second is the one who usually carries the nut tool.
Many of us use light little key chain biners for our chalk bags. I think a girth hitched sling is safer than using one of these!
Some people do not have biners coming out of their ears.
(I always have too many for what I am climbing, though.)
If the anchor is considered "unsafe" because the of this sling, wouldn't down climbing (to clean pro) be one of the last thing you would want to do on it?
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fo_d
Oct 10, 2002, 6:41 PM
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BTW, its not what I would call an emergency, I could have dumped some pro and used those biners or even had one sent up from my belayer.
Anyway I've gone too far to prove a point that I really should not be tring to prove, I hung my old riding mower from a #10 smilie (I think i have to replace the nut now) on the tree out back and I've let it swing there while I slept. But even if I prove it can stand up, you all are right, its a bad thing to do so I'll back off on this now and go cut the mower loose before the kids get home and it breaks and fall on one of them.
As for pelliott.....FO&D.
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tradguy
Oct 10, 2002, 6:49 PM
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I carry a nut tool as a leader (in addition to the one carried by my second) because every once in a while I get a piece stuck in a position where it doesn't seem quite right, but I can't fish it out by hand, and I want to reposition it or switch it out for the next larger/smaller size, and still want to pull the stuck piece to use higher up. Also, if the second drops his/her nut tool, we'd have a spare. Plus, if we're on multi-pitch we don't have to worry about forgetting to swap over the nut tool if we swing leads. This is somewhat off topic for the current discussion, though.
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danl
Oct 10, 2002, 7:22 PM
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wlderdude :
"If the anchor is considered "unsafe" because the of this sling, wouldn't down climbing (to clean pro) be one of the last thing you would want to do on it? "
That set up is not "unsafe" but it is not as safe as it could be. yes you want to down climb and reclimb off this anchor to retrive a biner if you have none on you. Hell you're setting up a top rope and youre about to lower off it anyway. Better to down climb and reclimb so as not to load the anchor. Plus the person just lead it. It is better to do this and risk your own saftey than to risk the safety of your partner by conciously placing them in a less than ideal situation that you could have remedied.
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