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tommyf
Oct 8, 2002, 4:30 AM
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This is Mark Magnuson, Jenny Lake Subdistrict Ranger at Grand Teton National Park, Wyoming thoughts on new climbers. I think he hit the nail on the head. What do you think? " Most climbers used to come from a tradition of hiking, camping, and outdoorsmanship, he says, but the "majority" of new climbers now learn to climb in a gymnasium and have "less respect for the medium." Some have been involved in accidents that could have been prevented with prior technical knowledge and planning. This shift in experience and ethics is damaging to the climbing community as a whole.
http://www.lnt.org/Newsletter/NewsltrMagnusonGTNP.html
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topher
Oct 8, 2002, 4:44 AM
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i agree, i hate when people say that they want to learn in a gym first and that its safer there. wussies!! any way i learned to climb, because i hiked and camped and it was a natural thing. but i say what ever. gyms are fun (for about 3 houres) and if it gives me a place to stay in shap on a rainny day all the better
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brianthew
Oct 8, 2002, 5:11 AM
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I'd agree to that too...I'll admit, I learned climbing in a gym (I live in the city w/o a car, what do you expect?) but I've also done extensive camping and backpacking all my life, observing LNT. But I think this applies to all outdoor activities...for example people train for long hikes in thier high-rise stair wells and gyms, but they don't always learn the outdoorsmanship despite thier fitness. It just shows the difference between knowledge and wisdom, I think.
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coldclimb
Oct 8, 2002, 5:42 AM
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Same here. I see several people at the gym each time I go that I would really not want out on the rocks in the real climbing environment. They are a minority, but they are still there. The kind who ask you "Are you any good?" just as you are getting on your first problem, and then comment on how you have effed-up technique. Then they turn around and belay by walking backwards and forwards while letting out too much rope, then telling the leader to hold on while they take in the 20 feet of slack they have out. These kinds of "climbers" are the type who give our sport a bad name. These guys don't have any respect for me, how much more would they give an inanimate wilderness?
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tanner
Oct 8, 2002, 5:51 AM
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I Agree. Climbing for me has always been an outdoor thing. When I was young my favrite toys where the tree's and the rock in my back yard. I Only became interested in "technical" climbing because I liked the though of being able to climb to the top of steep cliffs and mountains. Not because It is a popular recreation activity. I just like being out side. Thats why I like the sports I DO. I learned to climb out side. 2 years ago I started using a rope and protective gear. Before that I would climb in my running shoes on Sub 5.6 climbs because I wanted to get to the top of them.
Now ropes make it more fun
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frogman976
Oct 8, 2002, 4:10 PM
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My old man is an avid outdoorsman and was a great climber till his back started going out on him, so naturally I became a climber, but he always beat it into me and my brother that without respect for the rock and others trying to enjoy the very same thing, you are a fool who doesn't deserve to be there. Gym climbing is decent when the rock is too wet to climb on, or if you just can't get away. I am going to be an avid gym climber soon. Moving from SOCAL to Chicago soon. Bummer, anyone have any tips on local climbing, outdoors prefferably? Respect is the key word here. Without it, surrender your chalk bag cause you'll hurt yourself or someone else.
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xcel360
Oct 8, 2002, 4:34 PM
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I now feel obligated to defend myself, so here goes. I completely agree with everyone. Climbing is an outdoor activity. I've always lived in or near woods, and from the time I could stand I would climb anything I could find, be it trees, rocks, mountains, hills, flagpoles...anything. I then took up hiking, backpacking and camping, and have done so all my life. I have a great respect for the outdoors and climbing brings me all that much closer to it. But I have since decided to move to Florida a year ago so I could surf (literally) my way though school. Well that was about one of the dumbest thing I ever did and at the end of the semester I'm moving. I miss the woods, the mountains and the outdoors. Unfortuantly I only get to climb in the gym because that's all thats available to me. So don't go around knocking all gym climbers (not saying that you were), just remember that for some of us, this is all we have. Road trips are pretty much out of the question for now, so gym climb is what I do. I still love the outdoors, and consider myself an outdoorsmen due to my experience. Just can't get to it right now. I see what the original poster meant, and that a lot of people are getting into this activity all wrong, and I agree with that. But not all of us can go to crags whenever we want. Ok I'm rambling incoherently to myself now so I'll stop.
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frogman976
Oct 8, 2002, 4:47 PM
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excel360, I am totally going to be in your shoes soon. I am in the Navy, moving from my hometown of Temecula, CA to Chicago, IL to be a drill instructor. I love to climb, I love the outdoors, but my climbing days outdoors are going to be severly limited to a few gym climbs throughout the months ahead. I have a 3 year minimum tour of duty, so I will be scouring the area for climbs to get beat down on. So, your defense is acceptable, hey, climb it anyway you can get it bro. Cheers.
[ This Message was edited by: frogman976 on 2002-10-08 09:49 ]
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climbingfoo
Oct 9, 2002, 7:45 PM
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I agree. There are some serious disregards for the great outdoors among some new climbers. I've also meet plenty of college kids who's never even car camped... how sad...
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old_school
Oct 9, 2002, 8:06 PM
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You can't hate someone for learning in a gym, just try to help them gain respect for the out doors.
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mother_sheep
Oct 9, 2002, 9:06 PM
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To some extent I agree but for the most part I disagree. Maybe I'm just hangin out with the right crowd but I don't know too many climbers that aren't concerned with impact issues, regardless of where they learned to climb. Lets face it, more and more people are climbing these days. Obviously that is going to result in a greater negative impact to climbing areas but I don't believe that us newbies who rooted ourselves in the gym in an effort to learn in a safe and controlled environment, have any less respect for the medium than anyone else. Plus I'd like to add that I love to climb. For me a real climb is when I can out there on something outdoors and super exposed. I enjoy the entire experience, right down to the camping and hiking to get to the rock. That is not something I can do everyday so I am so thankful that I at least get to jump on a wall in a gym. I think that the idiots mentioned in the column need to exercise some common sense. If that can't do that, they shouldn't be climbing at all and that's all there is to it.
[ This Message was edited by: tracyroach on 2002-10-09 14:14 ]
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spider-woman
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Oct 9, 2002, 9:48 PM
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The aspect of being outdoors is one of the primary factors that got me climbing. I love hiking, Mountain biking, etc. I love it when you finish a route and you can look over the canyon above the trees. Gyms are nice, but outside is nicer. I think all climbers should be aware of the outdoors and have basic survival skills. They should also have a strong apprieciation for nature as well.
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lilred
Oct 9, 2002, 10:09 PM
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I both agree and dissagree. I myself can be classified and a "new climber" as I've only been on the rock 2 years. However, I have always had a love for the outdoors/trailrunning/fishing etc etc...
I started out on plastic, and for the first part of climbing, I did if for the whole social aspect. But I grew out of that stage, and now I go to the gym, train like the dickens, and on the weekends crank with my tickless completiong as the goal.
I think that the newer climbers get into it because it is the "in" thing to do. Many of them do not last, as they are interested in the "image" of it all...The climbers who are interested in more than image turn out to be the true climbers that last.
Timelessnes, movement, energy
-Meghan
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curt
Oct 10, 2002, 2:10 AM
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I agree with the original post here completely. Perhaps some of those disagree, have misinterpreted Mark's (the Ranger) comments. In my opinion, by "not having a healthy respect for the medium", he was not referring to littering, etc. He meant not having a (healthy) respect for the medium. That is why his following statements refer to rescues that could have been avoided.
I think his (Mark's) original point was that climbers who are learning the sport in a gym, rather than through outdoor activities, need to some how acquire the additional outdoor skills to remain safe--before venturing out into the mountains.
Then again I could be just putting words into Mark's mouth--but that is my take on what he meant.
Curt
corrected for spelling on 9/10/02
[ This Message was edited by: curt on 2002-10-10 09:51 ]
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lox
Oct 10, 2002, 4:40 AM
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Quote:I've heard of "gym rats" (although at this point I am one, alas *dramatically throws arms in the air*) starting up a climb that had a rating they could do at the boulder rock club, and then had to direct aid up because they couldn't free past the first bolt.
The first part of this sums up the modern majority of climber's viewpoint. One cannot imagine the community before gyms, because even those of us who have been climbing 10+ years have had our perception permanently altered by gyms.
This guy is an idiot.
A gym doesn-t have to build respect for the medium because it builds respect for the movement, and it takes a special kind of person to become an active member of the climbing community, regardless of their climbing background.
And secondly... WHERE DID A GYM CLIMBER LEARN TO DIRECT AID ???
That doesn't make much sense.
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petsfed
Oct 10, 2002, 3:00 PM
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Direct aiding a bolted climb is not all that difficult, assuming of course that the bolts are near to each other. However, being that my argument is hearsay only (eg "I heard about...") I don't think its particularly valid, so I'm retracting it, always in hindsight.
Spew and chew Scoggins strikes again.
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quickclips
Oct 10, 2002, 3:43 PM
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I'd have to agree also. I grow up camping and everything outdoors. And some of the people who just come out don't play by the "leave no trace rules" and leave trash and damaged areas.
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thr3ee
Oct 10, 2002, 4:46 PM
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As someone who spent the better part of my youth living on a mountain and enjoys all types of outdoor activities (hiking, camping, mt. biking, trial running, climbing), I agree with the sentiment about climbing and outdoorsmanship. However, I do not totally agree with many of the opinions expressed about gyms and those who climb in them. Climbing gyms, properly used, are a great place to learn and *can* actually help introduce people to proper climbing ethics so long as they are not rushed to move outdoors too soon.
Here's something to think about. Some of the same people who berate gym climbers and their lack of "real" climbing knowledge may inadvertently be encouraging the very behavior they are trying to stop. So often I hear people belittle those who climb in the gym and claim that they *must* climb outside if they don't want to be just a poser. The message that comes across is "hurry up, get outside, climb on some real rock, don't waste your time in the gym!"
Instead, perhaps, we should encourage people to stay in the gym longer. We should let them know that moving to outdoor climbing is a serious endeavor and should only be attempted with the assistance of an experienced partner or even a qualified guide. People DIE outside! The gym is a fun place to practice technique and get in shape. People should enjoy it for what it is and if some of them want to stay in the gym, feel safe and have fun should be they applauded rather than denigrated. I think that we should treat gym climbing as a valued activity in its own right and emphasise that it is a different (albeit related) beast to climbing on real rock.
I don't encourage everyone who rides a stationary bike or runs on a treadmill to head out to Moab or hop on a gnarly trail run. However, if they express an interest in doing either, I would emphasize that they should start on easy terrain, learn the ropes and go with someone who is experienced first.
-Steve
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