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blueeyedclimber
Oct 15, 2007, 2:54 PM
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Generally speaking, at the end of the traverse, I will belay of my harness and redirect through the anchor to keep the force down in case of a fall. Well, this weekend, I did a climb and thought there was a good chance my second would fall on the traverse. It was a bolted anchor and instead I attached with sliding x and belayed off the anchor, with the thought that it would still equalize pretty well in the event of a fall. Using an autolock off the anchor I felt I would be in better position (and more comfortable) to help my second.
She did fall, and was hanging in front of a blank wall. I walked her through the prussiking process and she did it and finished the climb.
So, any thoughts?
Josh
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stymingersfink
Oct 15, 2007, 3:11 PM
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Protect the traverse with your second in mind. If you think they'll likely fall, protect often and keep a snug belay when they're coming up.
OTOH, sounds like a nice opportunity to share in some skills instruction, and nobody got too frustrated or hurt. Well done.
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toejam
Oct 15, 2007, 11:05 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: Generally speaking, at the end of the traverse, I will belay of my harness and redirect through the anchor to keep the force down in case of a fall.
I would think that the pulley effect from redirecting through the anchor would increase the force on the anchor more than the extra foot or so of rope would reduce it. Don't have the math though, need someone like RGold to solve that one. Its not really a factor 1 fall is it, since there is also a pendulum to consider...
If I'm worried about forces on my anchor I go straight off the harness without redirect.
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ja1484
Oct 15, 2007, 11:23 PM
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Thoughts on what? You didn't seem to have any trouble.
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 16, 2007, 12:26 AM
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toejam wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: Generally speaking, at the end of the traverse, I will belay of my harness and redirect through the anchor to keep the force down in case of a fall. I would think that the pulley effect from redirecting through the anchor would increase the force on the anchor more than the extra foot or so of rope would reduce it. Don't have the math though, need someone like RGold to solve that one. Its not really a factor 1 fall is it, since there is also a pendulum to consider... If I'm worried about forces on my anchor I go straight off the harness without redirect.
Sorry, by down, I meant direction of pull...not force on the anchor. You see, when belaying after a traverse, if the second falls, then the force on the anchor will be pulled sideways. With a pre-equalized anchor, this will put the force onto one piece, perhaps in a direction that the piece cannot guard against. With bomber bolts, that are more or less multidirectional, this allowed me to belay off the sliding x and maintain decent equalization.
Josh
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 16, 2007, 12:28 AM
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ja1484 wrote: Thoughts on what? You didn't seem to have any trouble.
Yes you're right. I guess I wanted to hear how other people set themselves up for the same or diferent anticipated scenarios.
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microbarn
Oct 16, 2007, 1:19 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: stymingersfink wrote: Protect the traverse with your second in mind. If you think they'll likely fall, protect often and keep a snug belay when they're coming up. OTOH, sounds like a nice opportunity to share in some skills instruction, and nobody got too frustrated or hurt. Well done. I sewed that thing up It was the first time she had ever prussiked. She was glad she got the chance to. She did not freak out and was positive the whole time. I would definitely climb with her again. Josh
Another alternative is to set up a 3:1 pulley too. Depending on the situation, it could be easier then teaching someone to prussic at the other end of a traverse around a corner with high winds.
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 16, 2007, 1:04 PM
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microbarn wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: stymingersfink wrote: Protect the traverse with your second in mind. If you think they'll likely fall, protect often and keep a snug belay when they're coming up. OTOH, sounds like a nice opportunity to share in some skills instruction, and nobody got too frustrated or hurt. Well done. I sewed that thing up It was the first time she had ever prussiked. She was glad she got the chance to. She did not freak out and was positive the whole time. I would definitely climb with her again. Josh Another alternative is to set up a 3:1 pulley too. Depending on the situation, it could be easier then teaching someone to prussic at the other end of a traverse around a corner with high winds.
Have you ever tried to haul someone on a traverse? Not going to happen. Hauling with directionals in place doesn't work.
Josh
edited to add: also, she knew how to tie the prussik, bbut didn't know how to ascend, so teaching her was actually easy. Second she was in plain view and communication was also easy. To haul, I would have had to get above her, which would have been possible, but more complicated.
Josh
(This post was edited by blueeyedclimber on Oct 16, 2007, 1:41 PM)
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neon_monk
Oct 16, 2007, 3:25 PM
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It seems to me that even redirecting through the anchor won't keep the direction of pull pointing down. In the best case, with the belayer exerting exactly as much force as the falling climber, you still get a net force diagonally down and to the side. And that's not likely to be the actual case, because at the moment of peak force the system is still dynamic and the falling climber is exerting way more force than the belayer... right? So the net force would still have a sideways component.
But I know some of you know more relevant physics than I do--maybe I've got it wrong.
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 16, 2007, 5:07 PM
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neon_monk wrote: It seems to me that even redirecting through the anchor won't keep the direction of pull pointing down. In the best case, with the belayer exerting exactly as much force as the falling climber, you still get a net force diagonally down and to the side. And that's not likely to be the actual case, because at the moment of peak force the system is still dynamic and the falling climber is exerting way more force than the belayer... right? So the net force would still have a sideways component. But I know some of you know more relevant physics than I do--maybe I've got it wrong.
There are some variables here, such as weight of both climber and belayer, how much rope is out, length of fall, reaction and position of belayer....but you should be able to keep the anchor from being pulled sideways. You don't need to redirect through the anchor, the key is to belay off your harness. The rope can go directly to the last piece you placed. If you do this however, make sure it is very close, if not right next to your anchor, and have them clip in before taking the piece out.
If you are worried about not being able to keep the anchor loaded down, then you can set a peice for upward pull and either attach it to yourself or directly to the power point.
In this scenario, equalization becomes secondary to the integrity of each piece. Bolts don't have this problem, but a cam or nut when loaded sideways can be anywhere from not quite as strong to useless.
Josh
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majid_sabet
Oct 16, 2007, 5:51 PM
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Josh
belaying off a solid anchor is 1.9876 million times better than belaying directly off your harness.
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microbarn
Oct 16, 2007, 6:00 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: Josh belaying off a solid anchor is 1.9876 million times better than belaying directly off your harness.
no
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LostinMaine
Oct 16, 2007, 7:07 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: You don't need to redirect through the anchor, the key is to belay off your harness. The rope can go directly to the last piece you placed. If you do this however, make sure it is very close, if not right next to your anchor, and have them clip in before taking the piece out.
I'm not sure I see the advantage to this. If the second were to clean the gear up to the last piece of pro and fall, it would put a fair swinging force on the redirect. My guess is that this would increase the likelihood that the final protection piece would pull, resulting in a larger fall that you would need to catch on your harness.
Why not just extend yourself down a bit from the anchor and run the rope through the MP? If it's a stout multi-directional anchor like you had, there should be no worries and would decrease the chances of the last piece pulling.
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MikeSaint
Oct 16, 2007, 7:20 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: belaying off a solid anchor is 1.9876 million times better than belaying directly off your harness.
There are advantages and disadvantages.
Majid Im curious to hear your reasoning when you get the chance or send a PM.
(This post was edited by MikeSaint on Oct 16, 2007, 7:21 PM)
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majid_sabet
Oct 16, 2007, 8:18 PM
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I will PM you
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krusher4
Oct 16, 2007, 9:20 PM
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you shouldnt use a sliding X on bolted anchors any point could fail and your anchor will be done.
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cracklover
Oct 16, 2007, 9:36 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: Generally speaking, at the end of the traverse, I will belay of my harness and redirect through the anchor to keep the force down in case of a fall. Well, this weekend, I did a climb and thought there was a good chance my second would fall on the traverse. It was a bolted anchor and instead I attached with sliding x and belayed off the anchor, with the thought that it would still equalize pretty well in the event of a fall. Using an autolock off the anchor I felt I would be in better position (and more comfortable) to help my second. She did fall, and was hanging in front of a blank wall. I walked her through the prussiking process and she did it and finished the climb. So, any thoughts? Josh
Yes, one thought - what you did was perfect. For several reasons:
1 - Having an autolock on the anchor puts you in a great position to escape the belay, haul, or whatever you might need to do.
2 - Having a self-equalizing anchor is important in this situation, when you don't know whether the force of the second will be to the side, or down. Not to mention, if your next pitch started with either a continuation of the traverse, or a straight-up line, the anchor is ready to catch your ass either way.
Cheers,
GO
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majid_sabet
Oct 16, 2007, 10:01 PM
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cracklover wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: Generally speaking, at the end of the traverse, I will belay of my harness and redirect through the anchor to keep the force down in case of a fall. Well, this weekend, I did a climb and thought there was a good chance my second would fall on the traverse. It was a bolted anchor and instead I attached with sliding x and belayed off the anchor, with the thought that it would still equalize pretty well in the event of a fall. Using an autolock off the anchor I felt I would be in better position (and more comfortable) to help my second. She did fall, and was hanging in front of a blank wall. I walked her through the prussiking process and she did it and finished the climb. So, any thoughts? Josh Yes, one thought - what you did was perfect. For several reasons: 1 - Having an autolock on the anchor puts you in a great position to escape the belay, haul, or whatever you might need to do. 2 - Having a self-equalizing anchor is important in this situation, when you don't know whether the force of the second will be to the side, or down. Not to mention, if your next pitch started with either a continuation of the traverse, or a straight-up line, the anchor is ready to catch your ass either way. Cheers, GO
Mike Saint
When you done reading my PM, just think about what GO said here.This is another reason.
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 17, 2007, 12:21 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: Josh belaying off a solid anchor is 1.9876 million times better than belaying directly off your harness.
Majid, I don't know where you get your stats, but try belaying off the anchor on a straight in horizontal crack when your second falls on a traverse. THe pull will be to the side putting all the force on your outside piece. Maybe it's bomber, maybe it isn't, but in this situation, it is an inferior way of doing things.
There is NO cookie cutter way that is best in all situations. The sooner you realize this, the better.
Josh
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majid_sabet
Oct 17, 2007, 12:48 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Josh belaying off a solid anchor is 1.9876 million times better than belaying directly off your harness. Majid, I don't know where you get your stats, but try belaying off the anchor on a straight in horizontal crack when your second falls on a traverse. THe pull will be to the side putting all the force on your outside piece. Maybe it's bomber, maybe it isn't, but in this situation, it is an inferior way of doing things. There is NO cookie cutter way that is best in all situations. The sooner you realize this, the better. Josh
Josh
If I have a solid anchor, you can bet that I will belay my partner 100% at the time rather than belaying him off my harness, now adding a directional and changing configuration is a different game but I still will belay directly off an anchor any day.
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 17, 2007, 12:48 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: In reply to: Yes, one thought - what you did was perfect. For several reasons: 1 - Having an autolock on the anchor puts you in a great position to escape the belay, haul, or whatever you might need to do. 2 - Having a self-equalizing anchor is important in this situation, when you don't know whether the force of the second will be to the side, or down. Not to mention, if your next pitch started with either a continuation of the traverse, or a straight-up line, the anchor is ready to catch your ass either way. Cheers, GO Mike Saint When you done reading my PM, just think about what GO said here.This is another reason.
Majid, if you want people to take you seriously, then forget the pm's and put your opinion out and have it critiqued. I am well aware of the benefits of belaying off the anchor. Now look at my previous post and think about how you anchor could be compromised with a pull from the side.
Btw, I CAN escape the belay if I belay off my harness.
Josh
(This post was edited by blueeyedclimber on Oct 17, 2007, 12:52 AM)
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 17, 2007, 12:58 AM
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krusher4 wrote: you shouldnt use a sliding X on bolted anchors any point could fail and your anchor will be done.
no
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 17, 2007, 1:59 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: Josh If I have a solid anchor, you can bet that I will belay my partner 100% at the time rather than belaying him off my harness, now adding a directional and changing configuration is a different game but I still will belay directly off an anchor any day.
And I am saying that there is no 100%, and that it's foolish to think so.
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patrickm
Oct 17, 2007, 7:25 AM
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Any chance on posting this in public or is it too "technical" for us common folk. My skills are a bit minimal compared to some of the more experienced gang, but I enjoy reading as much as I can from books and situations so when I am with instructors/mentors I can question all I that I can.
PM's are great if you want to attack someone but why not contribute in public?
edit because I forgot "to" is not the same as "too"...
(This post was edited by patrickm on Oct 17, 2007, 7:45 AM)
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