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kimsismour
Oct 19, 2007, 12:04 PM
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As I progress in trad climbing, I have come to the realization that I am not afraid of my gear placements. Actually they are pretty bomber. My fear come from my lack of confidence in my ability. I am a pretty capable climber, and can climb 5.10, but when I am leading a 5.7, I fear that I will not be able to make the move.
On the other side of the coin is some of the people who climb 5.11 sport, but have problems with a 5.7 trad climb due to not trusting their gear.
My question is which category do you fall in, and does anybody have any suggestions on overcoming it?
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granite_grrl
Oct 19, 2007, 12:25 PM
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kimsismour wrote: As I progress in trad climbing, I have come to the realization that I am not afraid of my gear placements. Actually they are pretty bomber. My fear come from my lack of confidence in my ability. I am a pretty capable climber, and can climb 5.10, but when I am leading a 5.7, I fear that I will not be able to make the move. On the other side of the coin is some of the people who climb 5.11 sport, but have problems with a 5.7 trad climb due to not trusting their gear. My question is which category do you fall in, and does anybody have any suggestions on overcoming it?
So you have a fear of not making a move....and then falling? And if you're scared of falling then why?
I can assume that even though you're thinking the gear will hold, a fall on a 5.7 is rarely fun. Often they are slabby or have ledges and other stuff to hit. Solution: get on some G rated climbs, when you fear you might fall stick in another peice at your waist or above to reduce the fall distance.
Another option: find climbs with clean falls. There are 5.7s like this, but as a general rule as the gardes get harder the less stuff there is to hit.
Also, have confidence in your belayer. I had one bomber peice on a route last weekend, but then had to run it out on sketchy moves above with a small ledge below me. I had confidence that my piece would hold and that my belayer would sail me past the ledge if I fell. A fall still wouldn't have been fun, but an experianced belayer made it safer.
Note: you want confidence, but don't let it go too far. Still put in the gear to protect your self from a really bad fall. The confident can still slip on 5.5 territory and it can end badly.
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reg
Oct 19, 2007, 12:31 PM
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fear of falling - getting hurt - is very common in this sport and justifiably so. one has to develop a bit of "faith" in the gear and systems and partners. there are no guarantees. try not to let this fear into your psyche, it will reduce your ability, add to self doubt and ruin your day. it takes time to be able to control this fear. your brain is saying: "what the hell are you doing? get down now!" you have to clam yourself and bury this line of conversation somewhere inside - put it into it's little box and shut the door then climb on!
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buddysnack
Oct 19, 2007, 12:39 PM
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I find that what you focus on amplifies. If you focus on "not falling," your body will be tense, and your movements survival oriented. If you focus on success, you may fall, but you maximize your chances for success. It is like a self fulfilling prophecy - "I DON'T want to fall" vs "I WANT to succeed." My question for you when you are moving is "What are you focusing on" or "What do you want." Figure that out, and you can radically change your climbing.
It's easy in theory, then called life in practice.
Good luck!
(This post was edited by buddysnack on Oct 19, 2007, 12:40 PM)
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nodecaf
Oct 19, 2007, 12:41 PM
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I had the same fear until I took a couple whips on some trad placements. It was like all the cobwebs were cleared from my head and I thought "wow, they really do hold!"
My trad fear now is of the sliding/bouncing fall rather than a clean overhanging fall.
But then again, that's what I really love about trad -- it scares me a little -- something that sport climbing just doesn't do.
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microbarn
Oct 19, 2007, 1:12 PM
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kimsismour wrote: As I progress in trad climbing, I have come to the realization that I am not afraid of my gear placements. Actually they are pretty bomber. My fear come from my lack of confidence in my ability. I am a pretty capable climber, and can climb 5.10, but when I am leading a 5.7, I fear that I will not be able to make the move. On the other side of the coin is some of the people who climb 5.11 sport, but have problems with a 5.7 trad climb due to not trusting their gear. My question is which category do you fall in, and does anybody have any suggestions on overcoming it?
Kim who climbs trad! (sorry everyone else...inside joke)
I have the same fear. I can't really help you on overcoming it because I am working through it myself. What is working to an extent at this point is following Rock Warriors Way. I place my pieces. I evaluate the fall consequences, and I look for my next placement. I try to look for the available moves. Then I execute with full and utter commitment until I get to the predetermined point for my next gear.
I hope to see you at Seneca this weekend!
-Dan (who climbs trad)
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 19, 2007, 1:37 PM
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I am afraid of the rope cutting, the biners breaking, the gear ripping, hitting a ledge, running out of gas and coming off, holds breaking and my shoulders getting hurt. that may be trhe reason i like soloing so much . less things can go wrong You do the best you can to evaluate the real risks and filter out the imagined risks. Take steps to control and manage the real risks and remember to have fun.
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bent_gate
Oct 19, 2007, 1:39 PM
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So it sounds like you are saying that your fear is that you get an overwhelming feeling that you don't have enough ability to make the move, or that you won't be able to make the move if you try. Is it something like this?
Fears can't always be rationally explained, so here is a suggestion. It may not even be clear to you what the fear is. Get into a situation to recreate the fear. Decide ahead of time that your goal is to recreate the fear and that you are going to watch and make no judgments about it. Notice how it effects your breathing, and your body. Your goal is to experience it, so that you can understand it.
Sometimes that simple process alone can make everything clear, but afterwards you may have a better idea of what the fear is about. Common fears are: Progressing will get you into something you can't get out of, Progressing will get you into something you aren't ready for, Progressing will commit you to something that is more than you can handle, Progressing gets you closer to failure, Failure will reflect on you, Progressing will lead to the need for further progressing, Progressing will lead to success, Success will be overwhelming,
And any combination of the above, or more. Again, it's never fully rational, so you have to be ready to accept whatever that fear might be. Because when they are written out, they don't make complete sense, it leads to apprehension as to fully stating and accepting it. They will never make complete sense.
What do I fear? I fear getting significantly injured. Why? Because it sucks! And from experience it can keep me out longer than I am willing to accept again.
When there is ledge or ground fall potential, I seriously weigh if I feel it is really worth the risk. Depending on the reward, sometimes it is worth the risk. Sometimes, it is just a stupid climb. Just a personal choice.
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kimsismour
Oct 19, 2007, 2:01 PM
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bent_gate wrote: So it sounds like you are saying that your fear is that you get an overwhelming feeling that you don't have enough ability to make the move, or that you won't be able to make the move if you try. Is it something like this? quote] This pretty much sums up my problem in a nut shell. If i were on top rope, I would fly through the move without thinking-- mostly because there is not fall potential. I do trust the gear completely, it's the fall i am afraid of. I have pushed myself through many situations where i wanted to bail, and kept moving up a climb after not being able to find gear. Don't get me wrong, i really don't like running it out, but going along with what "microbarn (dan that climbs trad)" I don't see the point in wasting energy freaking out about not having any pro. I just keep climbing until I find something. I need to get more confidence in my actual climbing ability. Any suggestions for that one?I agree with you Bent gate, sometimes the reward is not worth the risk. But what a great feeling when you push youself through the cluster f going on in your head.
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the_climber
Oct 19, 2007, 4:02 PM
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A lot of the trust once placed in trad placements and anchors has been lost... personally I think it's due to the popularity of sport climbing and the cutch we refer to as bolt. But, that's just my personal opinion.
I think a lot of it come down to a few things:
Many climbers haven't put in enough time on easier climbs.
Head space is something that is learned over time, especially with trad.
And the big one... there is a big difference in what a climber physically has the strength to climb and the level of their climbing. I'll sum it up with this. What I CAN lead and what I DO are two totally differnt things. Don't abuse that safety net that you have.
The good thing is all of them have the same solution. That trust, ability, headspace, and increasing of your lead level all comes with experiance and tiem on the rock. In short, climb more and climb smart when you do. 'Cause I knwo everyone here just hates climbing more.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 19, 2007, 4:02 PM
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IT IS ALLMOST NEVER WORTH GETTING HURT OVER A CLIMB. exceptions would be a significant FA and then its still not a good idea to get hurt. Don't EVER fall prey to peer pressure and run it out just to look cool or live up to a supposed style etc. Place as much gear as you need, back up critical pieces and don't be afraid to holler take if the fall is not clean or safe and you need the rest to be safe. More miles with more sucess will lead to a higher comfort level and more clean harder sends. It just takes time.
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billl7
Oct 19, 2007, 4:29 PM
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My category:
Sport - pushing leads of mid 5.10s.
Trad - breaking in to 5.9 leads.
Generally I find that for 5.7s and below I tend to be afraid to fall even now. As has been said, the easier grades often present more to hit. There have been two trad pitches that I both was willing and did take falls: 5.8 and 5.9+, both splitter cracks on an otherwise clean face.
An opinion likely already covered ad nauseum: You probably just need to build more confidence in your ability to visualize a workable sequence on moderately easy terrain: mileage on lead!
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wonderwoman
Oct 19, 2007, 4:32 PM
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For me it was fear of gear. I started out on sport and moved to trad. Going from nicely laid out bolted routes to placing gear in unknown territory was certainly a head game. I was willing to fall on a bolt but unwilling to fall on gear, which had me leading way below my level in trad.
So after placing pro for a few years and recently having an entire season dedicated to trad, I finally fell! And it held!!!
I've known for a long time that my gear placement is solid, but nothing was more reassuring than that first fall. I went directly from that first fall to redpoint my first 5.9 and then onsight another one the very next day.
I've fallen three times on trad this season. The first was on a slimy dihedral onto my #1 Cam. Once was on the smallest nut on my rack (which was blindly placed). The other time was on the smallest cams on my rack (gray metolius backed up by green C3).
But I also stress the ability to recognise when it's not okay to fall. You really need to have faith in your gear and at the same time recognize the limits of your ability and the times when a fall could be catastrophic. If the climb is way beyond your ability, the fall is scary, and your gear isn't good, then the outcome isn't going to be good either, right? So it's reasonable to have fear of both of your gear and ability!
(This post was edited by wonderwoman on Oct 19, 2007, 4:40 PM)
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kimsismour
Oct 19, 2007, 5:08 PM
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I think you hit the nail on the head. It is a fear of both. The funny part is, if you would have talked to me a year ago, I had zero intention of leading trad. I was a determined sport climber. Now, I am more comfortable on trad, then sport. Go figure.
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wonderwoman
Oct 19, 2007, 5:36 PM
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Trad is very mental! An interesting topic, too! I recommend checking out some of the posts in the Rock Warriors Way forum on this site. There's a lot of topics around this type of thing.
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cracklover
Oct 19, 2007, 6:05 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: I've known for a long time that my gear placement is solid, but nothing was more reassuring than that first fall. I went directly from that first fall to redpoint my first 5.9 and then onsight another one the very next day.
Congrats! Progress feels good!
In reply to: Once was on the smallest nut on my rack (which was blindly placed).... You really need to have faith in your gear...
Hmm, you really *shouldn't* have faith in small gear that is placed blind. And then to fall on that. Do you think that was a good thing to do? What would have happened if the nut had popped?
I've come damn close to falling on gear that was very suspect, where the gear failing would have resulted in a long fall. In that case, not falling was key. And I've fallen on crap gear, knowing it was backed up (and it ripped - no surprise). But not knowing the whole story, as a friend, I'm a little nervous to hear you talking about how you got over your fear of falling on gear, and in the same breath, mention a fall that sounds like exactly the kind you *should* fear and avoid.
GO
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kimsismour
Oct 19, 2007, 6:27 PM
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Like I always say, there is nothing wrong with sewing it up like a plastic surgeon
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cracklover
Oct 19, 2007, 6:50 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: cracklover wrote: Hmm, you really *shouldn't* have faith in small gear that is placed blind. And then to fall on that. Do you think that was a good thing to do? What would have happened if the nut had popped? If the piece had popped, I would have caught air and then fallen onto the solidly placed #1 cam that was placed very closely beforehand!  I just could not see my placement because I was coming around a roof. And before I was willing to fall on it, I certainly over tugged on the nut before I was willing to make the move. I'm not courageous enough not to sew it up.
Sweet. Sounds like a fine time to give it your best shot.
Cheers (and hope your ankle's healing up).
GO
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wonderwoman
Oct 19, 2007, 6:51 PM
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Yes, and we all know that bouldering is the most dangerous climbing activity, anyway! 
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the_climber
Oct 19, 2007, 8:41 PM
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cracklover wrote: wonderwoman wrote: Yes, and we all know that bouldering is the most dangerous climbing activity, anyway! Tis true - all my worst climbing injuries have been from bouldering! GO
Damn most of my worst injuries happened in the climbin gym. Damn Dangerous places those gyms... Stick to the tall trad lines, it's safe.
(This post was edited by the_climber on Oct 19, 2007, 8:42 PM)
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wonderwoman
Oct 19, 2007, 8:48 PM
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the_climber wrote: Damn most of my worst injuries happened in the climbin gym. Damn Dangerous places those gyms... Stick to the tall trad lines, it's safe.
Unfortunately, I feel your pain! Stupid gym!
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fluffystuff
Oct 19, 2007, 9:36 PM
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Do you ever take somewhat unexpected falls on TR or sport? If so, have you tried keeping track of these falls? Like, when you fell, what type of move was it (i.e. slabby feet or crack) and what was going on with your body (i.e. were your arms pumped or your feet hurting)?
Being aware of when I've fallen in the past helps me get beyond the head games on lead. Just recognizing that I have not taken any unexpected falls on equivalent terrain assures me to keep climbing. Or, if I have taken unexpected falls on equivalent terrain, I know I need to do something different (i.e. sew it up or down climb).
Just my 2 cents from a humble beginner...
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wonderwoman
Oct 19, 2007, 10:49 PM
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Great advice! I sometimes keep a journal of climbs when they freak me out and why. This has helped me with my head-game!
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