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theteacher95
Oct 22, 2007, 3:41 PM
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So I took my first big fall this weekend. It was my first day climbing lead outdoors (big surprise). I fell from the 3rd bolt of Fun and Games, a 5.8 at Manchester Wall. You can check it out here:
http://mgreeby.home.mindspring.com/Climbing_Guides/Manchester_Bridge_Climbing_Guide.pdf
I was trying to clip into the third bolt and slipped. since I fell without warning there was a bunch of slack in the rope. the whole fall was around 30 feet I'd say. The rope caught me about 5 feet off the ground but had enough stretch that I still smacked pretty hard on the ground. My partner took the worst of it he instinctively clinched the rope above the ATC with the hand he was using to give me slack. he got rope burns from hell.
It was a big reality check. We need to stick to safer routes while we're learning to lead. I'll post pics of his hand later. It's worth seeing.
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JohnCook
Oct 22, 2007, 3:55 PM
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With a BD belayer you only need thumb and finger to give slack. Try this and the instinct to grab the live rope is greatly reduced, because by the time the hand has got hold its too late. Good luck with the leading, don't let the fall put you off, go back, finish the route. If you don't fall you aren't pushing to your limit, and climbing will eventually get boring.
Usually take at least one fall every time I try to up my grade. Not broken any bones climbing, only on footpaths away from crags. What them they sneak up on you when you aare tired and have relaxed you vigilance.
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notapplicable
Oct 22, 2007, 5:15 PM
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theteacher95 wrote: So I took my first big fall this weekend. It was my first day climbing lead outdoors (big surprise). I fell from the 3rd bolt of Fun and Games, a 5.8 at Manchester Wall. You can check it out here: http://mgreeby.home.mindspring.com/Climbing_Guides/Manchester_Bridge_Climbing_Guide.pdf I was trying to clip into the third bolt and slipped. since I fell without warning there was a bunch of slack in the rope. the whole fall was around 30 feet I'd say. The rope caught me about 5 feet off the ground but had enough stretch that I still smacked pretty hard on the ground. My partner took the worst of it he instinctively clinched the rope above the ATC with the hand he was using to give me slack. he got rope burns from hell. It was a big reality check. We need to stick to safer routes while we're learning to lead. I'll post pics of his hand later. It's worth seeing.
Hey teach, I climb on and off at manchester and know the route you were on. Sorry you busted your ass, its always a shocker the first time it happens (been there done that) but it sounds like you didnt get hurt which is good news.
Did your belayer drop you any? The reason I ask is, I'm having a hard time picturing how holding the rope above the ATC while catching a fall would result in rope burn. I have only ever belayed with an ATC and havent run in to this. Not trying to be critical, thats not my place. I'm just curious about what happened.
Dont let this deter you. I would get back on the very next time your out there. If having a belayer who can quickly take slack out of the system will give you confidence I would be more than happy to spot you a belay.
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theteacher95
Oct 22, 2007, 5:18 PM
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Yeah, I'm not really put off by it. I would of tried it again that day but my partner couldn't use his hand. Right now I'm just stuck bouldering waiting for him to get better. Thanks for the advice on the belay.
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theteacher95
Oct 22, 2007, 5:53 PM
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Well I can only say what I saw as I was looking over my shoulder shouting a word which I'm glad didn't end up being my last. But, first off he looked like a bumbling idiot. Seriously though, I think what happened was he grabbed the rope with the hand he was using to give me slack and didn't lock off very well with his bottom hand. Obviously, I came down with a good head of steam and I think it probably yanked 5 to 10 feet of rope through his hand. I'll show you pic's of the burn it was no BS. I couldn't get any real input on what had happened from him. All he wanted to do was complain about his hand.
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notapplicable
Oct 22, 2007, 6:46 PM
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Thats sort of what I suspected. Its not that uncommon for people new to belaying to get things a bit crossed up (I've done it myself) when trying to payout slack quickly. He was probably a bit embarrassed by fumbleing the belay and didnt want to come right out and say it. I would be willing to wager that he learned a damn valuable lesson and will be giving tight fisted (so to speak) belays for a long time to come.
Sucks he had to learn at what was nearly your expense but that is all part of a partnership.
I'd like to see a picture of his hand when you get a chance. Its more morbid curiosity than anything else but would still like to see it. Thanks in advance.
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MikeSaint
Oct 22, 2007, 6:51 PM
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It will be learning experience for your partner.
How long will it take for his hand to heal?
(This post was edited by MikeSaint on Oct 22, 2007, 6:53 PM)
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theteacher95
Oct 22, 2007, 7:10 PM
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Not sure how long it's gonna take. I'm probably gonna hang out with him tonight and see how bad it looks. My guess is a week or so!?
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ZackP
Oct 23, 2007, 1:33 AM
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sounds like me this weekend. i was doing lead on a sport when my foot slipped fell bout the same distance and dragged my belayer about 5 or 6 ft before he got good footing. i missed the floor by about3 or 4 ft and kicked off the wall. talk about a rush i had the adrinalin flowing for sure. Ifealt silly afterwards being my first big fall on a sport/ lead not to mention him making the joke right before hand of how im like tinkerbell on the rocks.
Hope yer pertner gets better soon wish i could offer some advice.
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adr0ck
Oct 23, 2007, 1:53 AM
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JohnCook
Oct 23, 2007, 1:58 AM
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We honest people all make mistakes (the other do as well but don't own up) and fortunately this one has a good outcome. Use aftersun or a good moisturiser on the burns, and stop them drying, shrinking and cracking. Other than that let the air get to them.
Keep on climbing, and the belaying gets easier from here. Sometimes you may need to run backwards if you are on the ground and the route is run out. On this kind of route check your exit before your leader starts.
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adr0ck
Oct 23, 2007, 2:05 AM
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minibiter
Oct 23, 2007, 2:08 AM
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If you'd have been clipping the second (or first) bolts you'd probably have decked before the rope caught.
Manchester tore up my fingers and made me look like a sissy! Different kind of climbing than natural rock.
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JohnCook
Oct 23, 2007, 2:10 AM
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As you get to know your leader better, you'll learn to read his actions and sounds, (he may go quiet or talk more etc as he begins to feel insecure) and you can be more ready. Seconding is a skill to be learned and improved. Glad you aren't put of by one slip. Go to it!
Cover your hands for your next day out if you are not fully healed. This tissue and athletes tape are good.
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drfelatio
Oct 23, 2007, 3:51 AM
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There were definitely some catastrophic belay failures here, but I'm curious if the bolting on the route contributed in any way. How far off the ground is the first bolt? How far apart are the bolts from one another?
I'm also very curious as to how you got burns on your left hand, but not your right. The only explanation I can come up with is that you were holding slack in that hand and when the rope went taut, it slipped through and burned you. Good that you didn't let the brake hand slip, but on a route with groundfall potential you need to learn to be much more conservative with the slack. Better to short rope your partner than deck him. Glad you guys are OK, though. Chalk it up as a dramatic learning experience.
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healyje
Oct 23, 2007, 4:02 AM
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theteacher95 wrote: We need to stick to safer routes while we're learning to lead.
Glad you're both relatively ok in the aftermath.
But honestly, I do think you should re-phrase that to:
...while we're learning to belay.
Beginning and intermediate climbers are often stunned to learn just how fast things can really happen and therein lies the heart of the matter when it comes to belaying. You simply can not hope or count on perceiving every conceivable potential lead event and conciously respond to them in time and appropriately. Because of that, you have to belay in a manner which, essentially, anticipates all unexpected and untowards events - all the time.
That means you have to be prepared to stop an unexpected fall at any time and during all points of rope handling while belaying. That includes while feeding slack as the leader advances or is clipping - not just the sketch parts where the lead says, "watch me!"
Belaying is deadly serious business requiring your full and undivided attention when doing it and should include a continuous analysis of appropriateness the amount of slack currently in the system at any given moment. Not to say it had a bearing in this case, but that 'undivided attention' part of the gig isn't really the norm as much in today's highly social gym and sport venues. This can also be a real issue when folks try to cross over to trad where solid belaying becomes all the more imperative.
Again, glad you're both alright, but remember - gravity rarely teaches the same lesson twice.
P.S. What an odd and wonderfully recycled climbing area...
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Myxomatosis
Oct 23, 2007, 4:36 AM
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Clipping is what I consider the worst time to take a big fall like that. I always make sure I have my partner when hes reaching for a clip. I know if he fell at that point, its going to be nasty  Feed him his rope then lock, brace myself and watch him...
I think also you could have pulled up to much rope? Only take what you need to get the job done. Its more of an experince thing to judge how much you need to get the bolt, but no point pulling up from your ankles
I fell on my first sport lead as well  got back up and re-climbed it straight away 
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jt512
Oct 23, 2007, 5:09 AM
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theteacher95 wrote: So I took my first big fall this weekend. It was my first day climbing lead outdoors (big surprise). I fell from the 3rd bolt of Fun and Games, a 5.8 at Manchester Wall. You can check it out here: http://mgreeby.home.mindspring.com/Climbing_Guides/Manchester_Bridge_Climbing_Guide.pdf I was trying to clip into the third bolt and slipped. since I fell without warning there was a bunch of slack in the rope. the whole fall was around 30 feet I'd say. The rope caught me about 5 feet off the ground but had enough stretch that I still smacked pretty hard on the ground. My partner took the worst of it he instinctively clinched the rope above the ATC with the hand he was using to give me slack. he got rope burns from hell. It was a big reality check. We need to stick to safer routes while we're learning to lead. I'll post pics of his hand later. It's worth seeing.
Congratulations on you and your belayer doing everything wrong and your having walked away from it. Maybe your partner should learn how to catch a fall before you climb with him again.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Oct 23, 2007, 5:10 AM)
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notapplicable
Oct 23, 2007, 12:03 PM
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drfelatio wrote: There were definitely some catastrophic belay failures here, but I'm curious if the bolting on the route contributed in any way. How far off the ground is the first bolt? How far apart are the bolts from one another?
For the most part I would describe them as being sparsely but adequately bolted.
The climbing is relatively short, ranging from 30-60 ft and mostly those who bolted the climbs werent exactly over achievers. On the piers which are about 30ft. there are usualy two bolts. You climb 10ft. clip, climb another 10 clip and then top out. Some of the climbs only have one bolt which is plenty if the leader and belayer know what they are doing and it helps make a 30ft. route not feel to humdrum, if you know what I mean.
Another thing to consider is that almost all of the routes have optional (or mandatory) gear placements in between bolts so it is possible (not the case here) for someone to get on an all together underbolted route, not realizing that they need some tricams and nuts to be safe. There are sport, mixed and trad routes out at manchester, where as some places everything would have been bolted. Which I think says something about the "spirit" in which a lot of the bolting was done.
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cameltoe
Oct 23, 2007, 3:42 PM
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One other question - were you high clipping?
High clipping is a game in risk assesment - on the first three clips (ignore clip one as you deck anyway), high clipping is a good way to crash to the deck. It needs to be done from a solid stance. I only ever high clip if i 'know' i am not going to fall.
A secondary note, 'dynamic' belaying with 'soft catches' is all well and good higher up where there is no deck potential, but as another poster pointed out, low-down where I might deck I'd prefer to be short-roped.
A final point - when belaying these days, I often see people a long way from the wall - high up this is 'ok' but two things to consider - more slack/more rope stretch/more belayer careening in to the wall = longer fall =decking low-down. Second bolts were designed and bolted for up down force actions, whilst they are strong enough to take an angled pull you are also increasing the load on the bolt/rope/draw by introducing the angular bend in the rope (go draw pictures do the physics and the maths). on a sport route this is 'ok' if you like, but it hurts your rope more and also is very very bad practise if you do it on trad - it will likely cause the 'zipper' effect on the gear and your leader will fall..
(just a couple of pointers, glad everyone is ok)
CT out
p.s. when paying out slack I always keep the rope between hand and device about the length of distance between hand and device - it prevents rope slip and the associated rope burn, as someone who learned to belay on the hip I know just how much rope burn sucks..heal well!
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lena_chita
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Oct 23, 2007, 3:43 PM
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I am glad that you walked away from it.
And yes, it should be a wake-up call for you and your partner-- to learn better belay technique. I can assure you that catching a 30-ft fall should NOT leave any ropeburn marks on the belayer's hands.
Still, kudos for him/her for recovering from a mistake quickly enough to catch you, despite painful burn. A partner worth keeping, I guess :)
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theteacher95
Oct 23, 2007, 6:06 PM
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Yeah, he's already telling me he's ready to go tomorrow. We definitely should on a route with more bolts until we were both comfortable falling and catching. My partner is very safe it was my pushing that got us into the situation.
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theteacher95
Oct 23, 2007, 6:09 PM
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jt512 wrote: Congratulations on you and your belayer doing everything wrong and your having walked away from it. Maybe your partner should learn how to catch a fall before you climb with him again. Jay
Somones been climbing some Agro-crags.
(bbbbaaadddaaabbiinngg)
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drfelatio
Oct 23, 2007, 8:25 PM
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theteacher95 wrote: Yeah, he's already telling me he's ready to go tomorrow. We definitely should on a route with more bolts until we were both comfortable falling and catching. My partner is very safe it was my pushing that got us into the situation.
That is incorrect. If your belayer was safe, you shouldn't have decked. Pushing your limits (without getting in over your head) will help you to become a better climber. What you need is a better belayer.
I'm just very worried about your nonchalant attitude here. Your friend just decked you. I know he's your buddy and all, but that is a HUGE mistake. He bears a lot of the blame here, and unless you two are willing to accept that, I'm afraid that it'll happen again.
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