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tkambitsch


Nov 1, 2007, 1:13 PM
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Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes
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My climbing partner and I are replacing an older 10.5 Mammut rope. We also have a 10.2 Beal Flyer II. We have always brought two ropes on climbs for safety sake; using the thinner cord for backup and long raps on multi-pitch climbs.

We've been tempted to lighten our load by buying a 10.0 or 9.8 rope and use the Flyer as our primary rope. My partner is a big guy at 240 lbs. and I am fast pushing 200 lbs. so anything smaller is scary.

So then I had the thought that maybe we could buy an identical 10.2 Beal Flyer II and then we could experiment with twin and double rope techniques.

Obviously clipping twin or double 8ish mm ropes would be easier and there would be the weight savings. But beyond that, is there any unique reason why we should not go out and buy an identical Beal Flyer II? (In a different color of course.)

Any related thoughts by "big" climbers? We generally climb easier grades at Red River Gorge, Seneca Rocks, with less frequent trips to Red Rocks and the Gunks.

thanks.


Partner j_ung


Nov 1, 2007, 1:27 PM
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Re: [tkambitsch] Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes [In reply to]
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Doubles shouldn't really be a problem, but twins will be. Never clip both ropes into a single piece of gear, unless they're rated for it.


(This post was edited by j_ung on Nov 1, 2007, 1:27 PM)


Carnage


Nov 1, 2007, 1:47 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes [In reply to]
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think of it like this.

ropes are springs. i think we can all visualize how using single ropes as half ropes would work. so each rope works independently. When you clip 2 ropes into a piece of pro, it look like 2 springs in parallel. When you do this, you add the spring constants. so if your clipping 2 of the same ropes, you impact force on the piece will double.

sorry if i didnt explain this too well

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/...ringsinParallel.html


chossmonkey


Nov 1, 2007, 2:01 PM
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Re: [Carnage] Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes [In reply to]
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The impact force on the climber would also be double. Used as twins to single ropes would probably be a lot like falling on a static rope. You could use two 11mm ropes as half ropes. They would weigh a ton. Keep in mind that if you placed two pieces at the same hight and clipped only one rope into each and fell so both ropes caught at the same time the anchors would be fine but you would still be feeling the high impact force.


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Nov 1, 2007, 2:10 PM
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Re: [Carnage] Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes [In reply to]
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Carnage wrote:
think of it like this.

ropes are springs. i think we can all visualize how using single ropes as half ropes would work. so each rope works independently. When you clip 2 ropes into a piece of pro, it look like 2 springs in parallel. When you do this, you add the spring constants. so if your clipping 2 of the same ropes, you impact force on the piece will double.

sorry if i didnt explain this too well

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/...ringsinParallel.html
WTF are you talking about man? That's not even what the OP asked...

Ropes are ropes. Sure, they have a twisted core, but that's about as far as anyone should take it without being a manufacturer. Find sterlingjim on here and ask him.

NOW back to the OP:

Myself being 200 lbs I have no problems climbing on a 9.2 single rope. I also have 8.2 doubles which come in handy. Know that the rope won't break. They may look small but know that my old rope towed a car quite well. it was a 9.8. The skinnier the rope the more stretch. (see twisted core, aka Kernmantle)

FWIW my old partner led and took falls on a 9.2 single. He weighed in at around 260 lbs.


vegastradguy


Nov 1, 2007, 8:00 PM
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Re: [epoch] Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes [In reply to]
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well, i wouldnt for multipitch routes for one specific reason.

if you're belaying on both lines and the leader happens to fall before they get the first piece clipped, you're looking at a factor 2 with a pair of 10.2 ropes. not good.

if you are interested in using double rope technique, do yourself a favor and buy a pair of double ropes. its more expensive, but it gives you a backup rope, and alot more rope diameter to hold onto in the event of a fall (minimum of 16mm of rope).

can you use 10.2mm lines as doubles- sure. however, it is absolutely imperative that the leader DOES NOT FALL before getting one of the ropes clipped on lead. the resulting forces could be deadly.

also for this reason, twin technique is not an option with anything other than twin certified lines due to high impact forces.


Partner j_ung


Nov 2, 2007, 6:01 AM
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Re: [epoch] Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes [In reply to]
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epoch wrote:
Carnage wrote:
think of it like this.

ropes are springs. i think we can all visualize how using single ropes as half ropes would work. so each rope works independently. When you clip 2 ropes into a piece of pro, it look like 2 springs in parallel. When you do this, you add the spring constants. so if your clipping 2 of the same ropes, you impact force on the piece will double.

sorry if i didnt explain this too well

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/...ringsinParallel.html
WTF are you talking about man? That's not even what the OP asked...

I think he was further explaining my short, vague answer.


tkambitsch


Nov 2, 2007, 6:05 AM
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Re: [vegastradguy] Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes [In reply to]
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vegastradguy wrote:
can you use 10.2mm lines as doubles- sure. however, it is absolutely imperative that the leader DOES NOT FALL before getting one of the ropes clipped on lead. the resulting forces could be deadly.

Thanks to all who helped me recognize that twinning up two 10.2 ropes would result in a near static line situation. Message heard. I am a little embarrassed that I didn't think of that on my own.

vegastradguy, does your comment about not falling before the first clip imply a new risk that I am not seeing? It seems to me that it doesn't matter whether you are on a single rope or using a double rope technique, if you miss that first clip on an upper pitch you are going to be seriously hurting with a factor 2 fall. Certainly there will be a harsher impact with a single 10.2 rope than falling on one of a double, but that is a risk that single rope climbers face every day.


Partner j_ung


Nov 2, 2007, 6:14 AM
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Re: [tkambitsch] Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes [In reply to]
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You can get around that risk with double thick ropes by clipping something before you leave the anchor and by slackening the unused rope (just enough, don't overdo it) until you're ready to start clipping it.


Carnage


Nov 2, 2007, 6:25 AM
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Re: [epoch] Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes [In reply to]
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epoch wrote:
Carnage wrote:
think of it like this.

ropes are springs. i think we can all visualize how using single ropes as half ropes would work. so each rope works independently. When you clip 2 ropes into a piece of pro, it look like 2 springs in parallel. When you do this, you add the spring constants. so if your clipping 2 of the same ropes, you impact force on the piece will double.

sorry if i didnt explain this too well

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/...ringsinParallel.html
WTF are you talking about man? That's not even what the OP asked...

Ropes are ropes. Sure, they have a twisted core, but that's about as far as anyone should take it without being a manufacturer. Find sterlingjim on here and ask him.

NOW back to the OP:

Myself being 200 lbs I have no problems climbing on a 9.2 single rope. I also have 8.2 doubles which come in handy. Know that the rope won't break. They may look small but know that my old rope towed a car quite well. it was a 9.8. The skinnier the rope the more stretch. (see twisted core, aka Kernmantle)

FWIW my old partner led and took falls on a 9.2 single. He weighed in at around 260 lbs.


its a simplified way of thinking about it.

his question was "should i use single ropes as twins?" My answer was no, pretty obvious from my previous explanation.


chossmonkey


Nov 2, 2007, 6:59 AM
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Re: [tkambitsch] Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes [In reply to]
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tkambitsch wrote:
vegastradguy, does your comment about not falling before the first clip imply a new risk that I am not seeing? It seems to me that it doesn't matter whether you are on a single rope or using a double rope technique, if you miss that first clip on an upper pitch you are going to be seriously hurting with a factor 2 fall. Certainly there will be a harsher impact with a single 10.2 rope than falling on one of a double, but that is a risk that single rope climbers face every day.
Its the same idea as clipping two strands of single rope into the same piece except in the situation of a factor two.

A single strand in a factor two should not exceed 12kN because it can stretch. Use two ropes that aren't designed to be used together and your 12kN max would be doubled to make a force up to 24kN depending on your ropes.

If you belayed with just the one rope until the first piece is put in and had a bunch of slack in the other so the wouldn't come tight the same you could avoid the situation. But if that first piece ripped and you had taken up the slack in the second rope you would be looking at ripping your belay again.


(This post was edited by chossmonkey on Nov 5, 2007, 4:28 PM)


vegastradguy


Nov 2, 2007, 9:06 AM
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Re: [chossmonkey] Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes [In reply to]
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chossmonkey wrote:

If you belayed with just the one rope until the first piece is put in and had a bunch of slack in the other so the wouldn't come tight the same you could avoid the situation. But if that first piece ripped and you had taken up the slack in the second rope you would be looking at ripping your belay again.

you could do this, but the problem is that you have to do it on every single pitch without exception. if you forget once, you could be risking your life.

better to get doubles or just trail the spare 10.2.


tradmanclimbs


Nov 2, 2007, 9:52 AM
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Re: [vegastradguy] Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes [In reply to]
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Regardless of the tech weini talk the system would be stupidly heavy. Buy 8.6 or 8.8 doubbles and learn how to use them and save me the fckin bullhonky that you can't use doubbles as twins. RTFM the next time you buy a set of doubbles. I have never had a set of doubbles that was not also rated as twins.


evanwish


Nov 3, 2007, 9:27 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes [In reply to]
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huh. this seems like a lot of helpfull advice.

Would it make a difference if when the climber is leading off the belay [with factor 2 fall potential and both double 10.2 ropes] if the belayer slacked one of the ropes and kept the other one secure untill that first piece is clipped??


irregularpanda


Nov 3, 2007, 9:54 AM
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Re: [tkambitsch] Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes [In reply to]
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Just an idea, but hear me out.

It sounds like you mainly need the second rope for long rappels, right? Well, what if you got a 7.7 static line, say 70 M. Learn how to tie 2 ropes of different diameter together safely, and then you have a slightly cheaper, lighter rope, and because it's longer than a 60, you can manage pulling a rappel over a lip a bit more easily.

I'm a fan of half ropes myself though


vegastradguy


Nov 3, 2007, 10:17 AM
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Re: [evanwish] Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes [In reply to]
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evanwish wrote:
huh. this seems like a lot of helpfull advice.

Would it make a difference if when the climber is leading off the belay [with factor 2 fall potential and both double 10.2 ropes] if the belayer slacked one of the ropes and kept the other one secure untill that first piece is clipped??

yes, it would. that's actually the key. but as pointed out above, if you fall above that piece and the piece blows, now you have a potential death fall.

the flat truth is that double ropes are what they are for a reason, as are singles. a 10.2mm rope is a single rope and should be treated as such. there's no reason to use a second 10.2mm in the system- its not necessary and can be incredibly dangerous if done wrong. better to either trail the line or purchase certified doubles.


tkambitsch


Nov 3, 2007, 3:56 PM
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Re: [vegastradguy] Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes [In reply to]
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vegastradguy,

While the rist of trying to use two singles as twins seemed obvious, for some reason it took me a few days of pondering your response about the risk of playing doubles with two single ropes, but it finally sunk in. It is really the same risk. Even with chossmonkey's suggestion and caveat, I can see that the risk is too great. If I am going to try climbing with twins or doubles I need the right ropes!

I've often thought of the 7ish mm rap line tied suggested by irregularpanda, but I always have been leary of multipitch with only one climbable rope. I fear the possibility of have have a stuck rope and no way to re climb and retrieve it safely.

Thanks guys.


vegastradguy


Nov 3, 2007, 5:48 PM
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Re: [tkambitsch] Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes [In reply to]
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tkambitsch wrote:
vegastradguy,

While the rist of trying to use two singles as twins seemed obvious, for some reason it took me a few days of pondering your response about the risk of playing doubles with two single ropes, but it finally sunk in. It is really the same risk. Even with chossmonkey's suggestion and caveat, I can see that the risk is too great. If I am going to try climbing with twins or doubles I need the right ropes!

bingo. the danger is when both ropes catch the fall.

In reply to:
I've often thought of the 7ish mm rap line tied suggested by irregularpanda, but I always have been leary of multipitch with only one climbable rope. I fear the possibility of have have a stuck rope and no way to re climb and retrieve it safely.

when i climb with a second rope, i usually trail an 8.6mm double line. its thin, lightweight, but in a pinch, you can lead on it. i retired my doubles a year or two ago, but since then, they have become my workhorse trail lines- and when i feel they need to be replaced, i wont scoff at spending the dough on a single double rope specifically for trail-line work.


Partner j_ung


Nov 4, 2007, 6:42 AM
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Re: [tkambitsch] Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes [In reply to]
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tkambitsch wrote:
vegastradguy,

While the rist of trying to use two singles as twins seemed obvious, for some reason it took me a few days of pondering your response about the risk of playing doubles with two single ropes, but it finally sunk in. It is really the same risk. Even with chossmonkey's suggestion and caveat, I can see that the risk is too great. If I am going to try climbing with twins or doubles I need the right ropes!

I have mucho respect for vegastradguy and count him among friends. I'd rope up with him any day. But in this case, I'm going to disagree. You guys are a little on the heavy side, right? Math shows that, as climbers move beyond the UIAA test weight, forces increase alarmingly. I don't think a thin rope is going to break on you, but I do think that holding high-factor falls will become more of an issue at the brake hand. (Granted, you can mitigate that some with the proper belay device, but I'm going to conveniently ignore this point. Cool) Your other option is to use a single rope, but then, by doing so, you don't mitigate the danger of a hard fall that you also get with PROPER USE of double thick ropes (as chossy suggested above) -- you just change it somewhat. One reason for using doubles is to have an extra rope, in case one is cut or gets stuck. But for two guys your size to end up on one thin cord... well, to me that would be hard to accept.

When you get down to it, I think you'll survive any of these systems. But I think the one that gives you the best chances for it is the intelligent use of two single ropes. If you decide to use them as doubles, instead of single-and-rap-line, take precautions not to load them at the same time and I think you'll be just fine.


chossmonkey


Nov 4, 2007, 6:46 AM
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Re: [j_ung] Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes [In reply to]
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What if they used two Beal Jokers? Seems like the best of all worlds to me.


Partner j_ung


Nov 4, 2007, 6:56 AM
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Re: [chossmonkey] Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes [In reply to]
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chossmonkey wrote:
What if they used two Beal Jokers? Seems like the best of all worlds to me.

Or Serenities or Nanos, for that matter. Good call.


sspssp


Nov 4, 2007, 8:29 AM
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Re: [vegastradguy] Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes [In reply to]
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vegastradguy wrote:
if you're belaying on both lines and the leader happens to fall before they get the first piece clipped, you're looking at a factor 2 with a pair of 10.2 ropes. not good.
...
can you use 10.2mm lines as doubles- sure. however, it is absolutely imperative that the leader DOES NOT FALL before getting one of the ropes clipped on lead. the resulting forces could be deadly.

Factor 2 falls (even if using singles as twins) is not instant death. Common guys, get real. I've had partners take factor 2 falls on a daisy chain (aid falls) and it can leave bruises but it is not the end of the world (I also took a 6~8 fall where I came to a static stop when my fifi hook hooked a piece on the way down).

Singles as twins sounds really bulky and heavy and it will up the impact forces. You will get shorter falls (less stretch), good for blocky climbs where you could hit a ledge, and higher forces on gear, bad if the pro is sketchy or the rock quality is iffy.


chossmonkey


Nov 4, 2007, 9:14 AM
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Re: [sspssp] Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes [In reply to]
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sspssp wrote:

Factor 2 falls (even if using singles as twins) is not instant death. Common guys, get real.

True, on multi pitch (unless you knot the ropes) high factor falls your falling buddy will just give you rope burn until you let go of the rope and drop him to the end of the rope. The fall factor should be pretty low before he loads the anchor to severely. Most likely he'll stop on a ledge or the ground anyway though so its not much of an issue.


jt512


Nov 4, 2007, 11:17 AM
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sspssp wrote:
vegastradguy wrote:
if you're belaying on both lines and the leader happens to fall before they get the first piece clipped, you're looking at a factor 2 with a pair of 10.2 ropes. not good.
...
can you use 10.2mm lines as doubles- sure. however, it is absolutely imperative that the leader DOES NOT FALL before getting one of the ropes clipped on lead. the resulting forces could be deadly.

Factor 2 falls (even if using singles as twins) is not instant death. Common guys, get real. I've had partners take factor 2 falls on a daisy chain (aid falls) and it can leave bruises but it is not the end of the world (I also took a 6~8 fall where I came to a static stop when my fifi hook hooked a piece on the way down).

Singles as twins sounds really bulky and heavy and it will up the impact forces. You will get shorter falls (less stretch), good for blocky climbs where you could hit a ledge, and higher forces on gear, bad if the pro is sketchy or the rock quality is iffy.

I've been reading your posts for years, and usually you don't post anything blatantly stupid. This post, though, is an exception.

Jay


tkambitsch


Nov 5, 2007, 6:19 AM
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Re: [j_ung] Twin and Double rope techniques on two 10.2 single ropes [In reply to]
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J_ung wrote:
When you get down to it, I think you'll survive any of these systems. But I think the one that gives you the best chances for it is the intelligent use of two single ropes. If you decide to use them as doubles, instead of single-and-rap-line, take precautions not to load them at the same time and I think you'll be just fine.

I was surfing for deals on double and twin ropes and came up with this Rock and Ice article suggesting that you could get away with double rope technique on two singes.

http://www.rockandice.com/inthemag.php?id=41&type=gearguy

The article is not nearly as informative as this thread so I'm still inclined to buy some dual rated (ropes with twin and double ratings) or just bag the idea and stay with a single and trailing a second full rope.

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