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stymingersfink


Nov 15, 2007, 5:55 AM
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Re: [wanderlustmd] Bolting to Preserve the rock. [In reply to]
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PTFTLPirate

Obviously many of you have about as much confidence in the ability of others to pick up what we're puttin down.

Hmm.


wanderlustmd


Nov 15, 2007, 6:08 AM
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Re: [stymingersfink] Bolting to Preserve the rock. [In reply to]
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No, I think it's a good idea. I'm not bolt crazy my any strech, but doing something that has become commonplace for anchors and such in the name of protecting the rock is a good thing, imo.

I think that most people will be able to put 2+2 together when they see the bolt and the drag lines above. When something gets chopped, it travels pretty quick through the community, and a trad area like the creek probably has a strong enough local base that such addition would move equally quickly through the masses...especially if it's discussed before hand.

Are you seriously thinking about doing it yourself?

Edited to add:

I'm really opening myself up for a hailstorm, but what does PTFTL mean


(This post was edited by wanderlustmd on Nov 15, 2007, 6:10 AM)


doktor_g


Nov 15, 2007, 6:18 AM
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Bolting to Preserve the rock. [In reply to]
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No fixed draw or dangling gear. Wind would rock the draw back and forth and groove the rock even worse than the rope grooves in the first place.

Sad as it is. Probably write something about it in the next guide book or suppliment and leave ol big red alone.

Your heart's in the right spot though.

G


bent_gate


Nov 15, 2007, 7:50 AM
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Re: [stymingersfink] Bolting to Preserve the rock. [In reply to]
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Definitley a tough one. There has to be another solution other than a bolt. I need to keep thinking on it.

How about an edge protector instead:




wanderlustmd


Nov 15, 2007, 8:24 AM
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Re: [bent_gate] Bolting to Preserve the rock. [In reply to]
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Maybe, but how could you attach it to a vertical section of wall like that. And it would probably have a greater visual impact than a bold, depending on how close you could match the shade of the rock.


bent_gate


Nov 15, 2007, 8:36 AM
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Re: [wanderlustmd] Bolting to Preserve the rock. [In reply to]
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Yeah, it wasn't a completely serious solution because you would still have to find a way to attach it to the rock. And it would have to be a metal edge or bar that you would have to custom fit to the rock.

No one is going to do that much work. Chair Rail anyone? Laugh


granite_grrl


Nov 15, 2007, 8:42 AM
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Re: [stymingersfink] Bolting to Preserve the rock. [In reply to]
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If people want to avoid doing damage to the rock there are only two choices in this case. Either hang out at the top, belay up your leader, then both rappel, or have a directional bolt like you're sugesting.

I actually like the idea of the bolt. Hanging belays suck and most people are probobly going to get lowered so they can just give their second a slingshot. I know I would. There is a chance that the bolt won't be clipped if it's in the middle of the crux but I think most experiances leaders would clip the rope in when they get lowered. Of course I could also see a leader clip it with an extendable draw while they're climbing which would negate the purpose of the bolt.

I think what it comes down to is whether people find the gouges from lowering more offensive or a bolt.


iamthewallress


Nov 15, 2007, 10:21 AM
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Re: [stymingersfink] Bolting to Preserve the rock. [In reply to]
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stymingersfink wrote:
What do you mean here? Do you mean for the leader? For the second? I think much of the damage to the corner comes from the leader being lowered from the anchor. There's really no other way to avoid it, as letting the rope run through the crack itself will push one's gear back into the crack. The remainder (perhaps majority, in all probability) of the damage comes from TR'ing the route, or even bringing up a second from the anchors above (that never happens in this case).

Lowering the leader, IMO, is a lazy habit that does a lot of unnecessary dammage in IC. It has its place, but I don't think its place should be on a route with a corner that's getting grooved to hell in a very access-sensitive area. Obvious new fixed anchors (i.e. a directional bolt w/ permenant draw) can be a problem too.

In most places only climbers notice these things, but I don't think this is one of them...especially Way Rambo wall. I was under the impression that there have been specific requests from the Ranch folks to minimize the existance of such things and keep them as camo as possible otherwise. Admittedly, I'm not a local and don't know the details, so I just try to go as delicately as I can and encourage others to do the same since I want to keep visiting.

Beyond lowering the leader, I was envisioning a fair amount of dammage to come from seconds dogging the bottom of the route w/ the rope running tightly around the corner (b/c slings weren't used to pop it out further and spread the rub around). I'd bet a fair number of folks that start up the bottom, don't make it around the roof and end up getting lowered on the rope that is tensioned around the corner. My original comment was getting at the idea that having the rope run out on the face makes for a bigger fall for both the leader and the secondwhen rounding the corner, and probably as such would end up getting ignored by the less conscientious anyway. Same groove...plus a bolt.

With all of the hundreds of full-comfort cragging options right there, it only seems responsible and respectful to me to accept a lower-convience experience if we want to climb routes that are obviously getting dammaged by agressive TRing. IMO, the bolt on the face sort of sends a message that says, "every person should feel entitled to do their thing on every last bit of land here...price of admission is free."

I know my ideas may be unrealistic, but I also feel like restrictions are probably going to end up enforced due to the mega-gym vibe and dammage that comes w/ it that seems to dominate there. I enjoy that vibe a lot of the time, but I also think that there are times when we need to remember that it's part wildnerss part next door to someone else's home (an a little bit part of their home too) and take in upon ourselves to show some restraint on the routes that can't handle so much impact.


(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Nov 15, 2007, 10:32 AM)


snowey


Nov 15, 2007, 10:33 AM
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Re: [stymingersfink] Bolting to Preserve the rock. [In reply to]
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Indeed what I was suggesting isn't relevant for this particular route as the damage is coming from the other side of the rope (which is why i stated 'in other situations').

Just a thought. When I went climbing in Kalymnos in October, the guidebook mentions in some of the route descriptions that the climb should be cleaned by a person seconding the route and not by getting lowered. This is especially relevant on some of the overhanging routes with large, fragile tufas taht have the rope running right along them. For the most part, people headed the warnings and recommendations in the guidebook.

Perhaps we can first try to increase awareness of the impact of lowering on certain routes ( I am thinking in particular of super crack).


bent_gate


Nov 15, 2007, 10:46 AM
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Re: [snowey] Bolting to Preserve the rock. [In reply to]
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Pictures make a big impact on people.

Get some pictures of the damage and post them up. It's hard to ignore it when you see it.


iamthewallress


Nov 15, 2007, 10:51 AM
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Re: [bent_gate] Bolting to Preserve the rock. [In reply to]
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I bet the Ranch folks have internet access too. Maybe it's better to speak in general terms about how we can leave less trace.


Partner angry


Nov 15, 2007, 11:22 AM
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Re: [iamthewallress] Bolting to Preserve the rock. [In reply to]
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Indian Creek roofs and bulges are almost all grooved from the rope. Especially popular ones.

What's the solution? Well, there isn't one really.

You could rap the route but then cleaning can be near impossible with the big roofs. You could belay from the top but that won't get done on single pitch routes, it just won't. You could add a bolt but that is really a slippery slope.

It's definately weighted ropes (lowering) that causes the grooves. TR'ing isn't as much an issue until you lower. My suggestion would be for the leader to rap and clean as much as possible and attempt to clip a few directionals. The second would TR and clean the route then rap down. If a third person wants up, the second can attempt to place a directional or two, or the third person can suck it up and face a penalty swing (sometimes safe, sometimes not) ad infinitum. Every member raps. Slower but better on the rock.

People won't do this either, IC has become the lowest common denominator of climbers at the popular crags. If the antics to preserve the rock get in the way of the stereo, guitar, dogs, baby, bongo, bong, or ganja, it's not going to be done.

Maybe we should shut the place down?


mojomonkey


Nov 15, 2007, 11:28 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Bolting to Preserve the rock. [In reply to]
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granite_grrl wrote:
If people want to avoid doing damage to the rock there are only two choices in this case.

There is at least a third choice: don't climb the route. Probably not a popular option though. I guess free soloing would work too...


granite_grrl


Nov 15, 2007, 11:40 AM
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Re: [mojomonkey] Bolting to Preserve the rock. [In reply to]
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mojomonkey wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
If people want to avoid doing damage to the rock there are only two choices in this case.

There is at least a third choice: don't climb the route. Probably not a popular option though. I guess free soloing would work too...

picky picky


stymingersfink


Nov 15, 2007, 12:55 PM
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Re: [bent_gate] Bolting to Preserve the rock. [In reply to]
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bent_gate wrote:
Definitley a tough one. There has to be another solution other than a bolt. I need to keep thinking on it.

How about an edge protector instead:

[image]http://www.modulor.de/shop/out/oxbaseshop/html/0/dyn_images/0/d/dza_ic.jpg[/image]

Well, honestly I'd thought of that one, though after discussing it with my friend we decided to discard that idea as too... unsightly? cumbersome?


bent_gate


Nov 15, 2007, 1:14 PM
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Re: [stymingersfink] Bolting to Preserve the rock. [In reply to]
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stymingersfink wrote:
bent_gate wrote:
Definitley a tough one. There has to be another solution other than a bolt. I need to keep thinking on it.

How about an edge protector instead:

[image]http://www.bagfittings.com.hk/BA00091.jpg[/image][image]http://www.modulor.de/shop/out/oxbaseshop/html/0/dyn_images/0/d/dza_ic.jpg[/image]

Well, honestly I'd thought of that one, though after discussing it with my friend we decided to discard that idea as too... unsightly? cumbersome?

But imagine the luxurious look of a rich mohogany chair rail with a fine lustrous finish! Add some class to the crick! Laugh


shockabuku


Nov 15, 2007, 1:18 PM
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Re: [stymingersfink] Bolting to Preserve the rock. [In reply to]
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stymingersfink wrote:
bent_gate wrote:
Definitley a tough one. There has to be another solution other than a bolt. I need to keep thinking on it.

How about an edge protector instead:

[image]http://www.bagfittings.com.hk/BA00091.jpg[/image][image]http://www.modulor.de/shop/out/oxbaseshop/html/0/dyn_images/0/d/dza_ic.jpg[/image]

Well, honestly I'd thought of that one, though after discussing it with my friend we decided to discard that idea as too... unsightly? cumbersome?

Okay, I've never climbed at IC so if this is obviously stupid from an informed point of view, oh fucking well... You could chop the current anchor and install a replacement out of TR range and then an intermediate anchor to rap to the ground. Of course the intermediate would have to be below the overhang. This has big impacts and some shortcomings, but it's an idea.


stymingersfink


Nov 15, 2007, 1:27 PM
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Re: [angry] Bolting to Preserve the rock. [In reply to]
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angry wrote:
Indian Creek roofs and bulges are almost all grooved from the rope. Especially popular ones.

What's the solution? Well, there isn't one really.

Well, as someone was asking earlier in the thread... "Sty, are YOU going to place the bolt?"

No, not at this point. In the future, maybe.

My point was, it is one of many routes in that area showing the effects of too much misplaced affection. If people are aware of a problem developing in the bud, wouldn't it be more responsible to mitigate the problem as much as possible before they grow into a full-fledged boat-rocking issues? Those who consider themselves "locals" should consider getting together and discussing the problem and possible solutions.

Though I'm a long ways off from considering myself an "IC local", on my one visit there several years back I noticed the same problem another friend did years later, which tells me it's not going un-noticed. What is going on, however, is that it's not being acted upon.

Since there is no real solution to the problem as a whole, I was looking for possible compromises. IC is an area with sensitive access issues, and there's really no point in aggravating those issues, else we end up with a permit system similar to the Grand Canyon. That'd be pretty well fucked up too, wouldn't it?

angry wrote:
Maybe we should shut the place down?
That's not a compromise either, but could very well end up being the final result, if enough issues arise without being pro-actively dealt with to the satisfaction of the adjacent landowner, whose property (it has been noted) is the access point to one of the greatest sandstone crags in the world.

If nothing else, perhaps the Ranch representative should be included in some of the discussions (if they're not already). By dealing with the issues pro-actively, it projects beyond those involved that we as climbers are serious about taking care of one of our most treasured resources, rather than just rapists and pillagers with a DGAF attitude. There's already too much of that in the world.


stymingersfink


Nov 15, 2007, 1:35 PM
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iamthewallress wrote:
it's better to speak in general terms about how we can leave less trace.
This is also what I'm saying in a way.

Generally, when someone puts up a new route in any sensitive area, they should be aware of any future issues which might arise due to projected traffic, and be proactive about mitigating those issues.

In some areas, people might develop a crag, do a bunch of work on trails to forestall erosion issues, draw up a good topo with information about concerns to be aware of, then start inviting people to check out their latest handiwork with the best information they are able to provide.

In other areas, people might just put a few things up, tell their friends about it, and eventually the grapevine produces a bountiful harvest of people generally fucking things up.

One way, IMHO, might be better than the other.


stymingersfink


Nov 15, 2007, 1:55 PM
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Re: [shockabuku] Bolting to Preserve the rock. [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:

Okay, I've never climbed at IC so if this is obviously stupid from an informed point of view, oh fucking well... You could chop the current anchor and install a replacement out of TR range and then an intermediate anchor to rap to the ground. Of course the intermediate would have to be below the overhang. This has big impacts and some shortcomings, but it's an idea.

I've already discarded that potential solution, since in thinking about it, would it really solve the problem?

I think not, for as someone has mentioned, some of the damage comes from lowering a second who just can't make it up the route. Too, it would just mean someone ties two ropes together to facilitate TR'ing the thing.

Following your line of thought, just chopping the anchors and moving them down to the slab at the right of the roof corner would do far more to change the character of the route than placing a single bolt there. It would, however, cut down on the wear of the rope against the roof edge.

No, short of closing the route (or soloing the thing, which isn't really realistic in my book), the only solution is to find a way to keep the rope from wearing against the corner. I suppose one might place a cam well up into the crack for a downward pull, clip the rope, then place another one for an upward pull closer to the edge of the crack, while routing the rope in the crack behind the roof. This would protect against a fall, while also preventing the rope from pushing that cam farther than cleanable into the crack. Obviously, however, people are just not doing that. Because it's too much trouble while on lead, not really feasible, or because they just don't care... IDK.

So far, a well placed bolt below and outside the corner is the best thing I've come up with, though I like the mahogany rail idea too (just not as feasible).Wink


shockabuku


Nov 15, 2007, 2:03 PM
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Re: [stymingersfink] Bolting to Preserve the rock. [In reply to]
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How about fixing a cam way up inside the crack with a long runner/cable/chain? Yeah, it changes the nature of the route, but I think you can't really avoid that with any type of hardware solution. A behavioral solution is a definite long term project with iffy results. At least a fixed cam way up in the crack would offer a fairly low visual profile and I wouldn't think would incur much additional damage to the rock.


stymingersfink


Nov 15, 2007, 2:18 PM
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shockabuku wrote:
How about fixing a cam way up inside the crack with a long runner/cable/chain? Yeah, it changes the nature of the route, but I think you can't really avoid that with any type of hardware solution. A behavioral solution is a definite long term project with iffy results. At least a fixed cam way up in the crack would offer a fairly low visual profile and I wouldn't think would incur much additional damage to the rock.
Admittedly, I've not yet taken the opportunity to examine the crack close-up, but there may well be several fixed cams in that crack already.

Did you look at the picture of the top 1/3 of the route? Once the corner of the roof is turned, the leader has two choices for routing the rope:

1) allow it to thread itself into the crack, where it will push the cam you've just placed as far back into the crack as the cam lobes will allow, potentially making the cam un-retrievable.

2)flip it up over the edge of the roof so it rubs on the roof edge, but won't get caught in the crack itself.


It's not a downward fall for the leader I'm suggesting we "protect", rather it is a placement to protect the rock itself from wear of the rope.

Long term? Sure, the feel of the route will be changed significantly when the monster roof falls off. Until then though, what can we do to prevent more visible damage to the rock.


shockabuku


Nov 15, 2007, 2:26 PM
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I think I understand that the issue with the leader not wanting to place the rope in the crack is that he/she may lose his/her gear. But if the gear is already fixed in the crack with a long runner on it to clip, you can then run the rope in the crack without risk of losing your own gear and have alleviated the problem of the rope running over the edge of the overhang. No?


notapplicable


Nov 23, 2007, 7:47 AM
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shockabuku wrote:
I think I understand that the issue with the leader not wanting to place the rope in the crack is that he/she may lose his/her gear. But if the gear is already fixed in the crack with a long runner on it to clip, you can then run the rope in the crack without risk of losing your own gear and have alleviated the problem of the rope running over the edge of the overhang. No?


I think in this case (unless steps were taken to protect it) the rope would do the same damage to the sling as it is to the rock. In some respects it would be irresponsible to place fixed gear that people would clip to protect a fall that could easily become damaged and fail when fallen on. People clip rotten rap slings and die because of it all the time and the cam being pushed way up in the crack would make it both hard to inspect and difficult to replace the sling on when it becomes damaged. Also, I will often clip fixed gear but always back it up which would negate the usefulness of the fixed cam. It sounds to me like the bolt is the best solution but I dont know about the fixed draw, that may be a bit much.


sky7high


Dec 3, 2007, 2:33 PM
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Well, you could place the bolt there, but I'd go with a chain instead of a draw, because the webbing will get weathered and potentially unsafe (people might fall on it, even if it's just there to re-route the rope)
OR
maybe you can place a bolt higher up the route, right beside the crack, with a long cable that goes inside the crack, and exits the crack right at the roof where it can be clipped with a carabiner. Sure, it would alter the character of the route more, but then you can virtually guarantee that the leader doesn't have to go out of his way to clip. the bolt, and the rope can go as far into the crack as possible without becoming costly.

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