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MadDynoz
Nov 29, 2007, 5:04 PM
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The forum on the gri gri has lead me to a question who is to blame for the influx of noobs not being taught basics? Should we blame trainers or noobs? Are the trainers half-assing climbers ignoreing their lead?
This could be a potential problem with the new influx towards climbing.
I often trust my belay to people I just met and Its worked fine but now I must say it worries me to know that people are being taught wrong!
(This post was edited by MadDynoz on Nov 29, 2007, 7:54 PM)
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reg
Nov 29, 2007, 5:09 PM
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MadDynoz wrote: The forum on the gri gri has lead me to a question who is to blame for the influx of noobs not being taught basics? Should we blame trainers or noobs? Are the trainers half-assing or are the cocky 5'7 scocer short muscle shirt climbers ignoreing? This could be a potential problem with the new influx towards climbing. I often trust my belay to people I just met and Its worked fine but now I must say it worries me to know that people are being taught wrong!
i think what ya gotta do is watch your potential belayer belay others first. if you like what she is doing then climb away but i would even then do an easy (no fall) route - watching her the whole time even give a surprise "fall" (close to the ground) at that point ya gotta feel fairly safe.
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MadDynoz
Nov 29, 2007, 5:12 PM
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yah this is usually good form when picking belays but I was more worried for other people and a little confused on how this poor belaying has come about you know
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reg
Nov 29, 2007, 5:17 PM
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i gotta think that the gyms are regulated by there insurance compaines. how could an underwritter issue a policy for a dangerous business and let them do whatever they want. gotta be regulated by at least the insurance co. so, if they're doin it it's been given the ok IMHO
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MadDynoz
Nov 29, 2007, 5:20 PM
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Yah but with the bout of this improper gri gri and three minute belay classes it just seems to point to things getting worse in the safety department if popularity rises
course maybe Im just being paranoid
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mturner
Nov 29, 2007, 5:22 PM
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A common problem around my area is gyms are not willing to pay top dollar (relatively) for qualified belay instructors and you end up with teachers who many consider noobs themselves.
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reg
Nov 29, 2007, 5:24 PM
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paranoid! a little fear'll keep you alive. what's you solution?
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markc
Nov 29, 2007, 5:27 PM
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I don't think you can blame new people for being improperly taught. The burden is with the (hopefully) experienced instructor. Unlike the OP in the other thread, I stress that climbing is dangerous. I also stress that as the belayer you're entrusted with someone else's wellbeing. If you drive that home and someone is still ignoring instruction, he needs to go home. This isn't the proper activity for him. If I'm not confident that you have the basics down, you're not belaying without a backup. Even then, I like a spare set of eyes on the ground just in case. (I don't work for a gym, and I'm speaking strictly from the experience of working with new partners.)
I'm past the point of trusting people I just met to belay me. I'll at least watch someone carefully for a couple of cycles to make sure they're okay before jumping on the rope. I've seen too much weird stuff, and read far too many dropped partner stories.
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MadDynoz
Nov 29, 2007, 5:30 PM
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Ive watched and helped thats kinda alll I can do besides had out belay devices like an ATC and make sure everyone belays the exact same lol
But manly I just try to help withy out intructing
Me" what are you f*cking retarded?! thats not how you use that!!!" lol
btw I say ATC because for newbs I find those the easyiest to learn use and they are quite cheep.
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markc
Nov 29, 2007, 5:34 PM
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mturner wrote: A common problem around my area is gyms are not willing to pay top dollar (relatively) for qualified belay instructors and you end up with teachers who many consider noobs themselves.
I'm pretty sure the gym I frequent exclusively hires climbers. Even so, only a couple of the senior staff teach courses and do belay tests. It's a model that seems to work, but introductory lessons are limited to specific times of day or by appointment as a result.
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MadDynoz
Nov 29, 2007, 5:36 PM
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Personally I would rather have an iconvience than a broke leg or arm or worse beacuse they didnt want to take the time to teach them properly you know?
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reg
Nov 29, 2007, 5:39 PM
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i think we all in time develope our own styles based on expierence and knowledge albeit: 1) there are basics to be followed like don't let go the brake side, pay attention, etc and 2) one actually knows the basics and basic safe techniques and then decides to say...belay plam up, plam down, two handed and so on BUT ya gotta have a safe, proven base of knowledge and expierence before you adjust your technique. i think all begginning climbers show use a tube style device to learn - simple effective, easy to spot problems. grigri's come later IMO
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MadDynoz
Nov 29, 2007, 5:42 PM
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well said 
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ja1484
Nov 29, 2007, 5:58 PM
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Assigning blame solves every problem.
MadDynoz wrote: cocky 5'7 scocer short muscle shirt climbers ignoreing? !
Even worse than the poor belay form is when these people give themselves whay 2 Xtreme internet handles like "MadSikDynoz".
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ilovecrimpers
Nov 29, 2007, 6:09 PM
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I've worked as an instructor inside and out for the better part of 14 years and only had a handful of students that just couldn't learn proper belay technique. Outside is a free for all with people doing unsafe things all over and there's not much you can do about it. Inside however is a controlled setting and there is no excuse to be letting unsafe acts happen. Staff should be properly trained and encouraged to fix poor belay skills or ask those unwilling to listen to leave. I have done both many times. Gym owners/management have the right to dictate how things are done in their facility but also have an obligation to do some research and be sure what they want taught is the best method out there.
In western Canada the ACMG runs a climbing gym instructor program that has pretty much standardized how belaying is taught inside (I'm not sure if the AMGA has a similar program or not). My understanding is that insurance companies give breaks to gyms that employ ACMG certified instructors but they really don't have any "proper way to belay" policies (which isn't their strong point anyway).
For the record, when I give a complete TR belay lesson it takes about an hour and a half. My lead classes include belaying and climbing and take around four hours with lots of directly supervised practice to be sure everyone gets it.
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stefanohatari
Nov 29, 2007, 6:10 PM
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Three models:
1) The German (European) model: you are responsible for yourself. No need to take a test, just say you know how to use a specific belay device and you are left on your own. Not a litigous society.
2) The regulated model: gyms are members of the Climbing Wall Association http://www.climbingwallindustry.org, which provides insurance and sets (high?) standards for instruction, certification, instruction qualifications. Gyms must comply to be insured.
3) The US model: probably halfway between 1 and 2. Moving towards regulation, either voluntarily or by government compulsion or insurance companies.
If climbing gyms don't collectively self-regulate, then they will eventually be subject to the same kind of regulation as amusement parks, and will probably become more amusement-park-like (gri-gris with floor anchors,etc.). Would be. . .interesting. . . for a forum like RC.com to play a role in industry self-regulation.
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markc
Nov 29, 2007, 6:14 PM
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MadDynoz wrote: Personally I would rather have an inconvenience than a broke leg or arm or worse beacuse they didnt want to take the time to teach them properly you know?
Exactly my point. While it may not be ideal, those that don't want to take the time to learn proper belay techniques can always boulder at my gym. At least then they're only potentially hurting themselves.
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climbsomething
Nov 29, 2007, 6:28 PM
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MadDynoz wrote: Are the trainers half-assing or are the cocky 5'7 scocer short muscle shirt climbers ignoreing?
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primus
Nov 29, 2007, 6:30 PM
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climbsomething wrote: MadDynoz wrote: Are the trainers half-assing or are the cocky 5'7 scocer short muscle shirt climbers ignoreing? Is this English?
Add on to this: WTF is a Neb?
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MadDynoz
Nov 29, 2007, 6:35 PM
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primus wrote: climbsomething wrote: MadDynoz wrote: Are the trainers half-assing or are the cocky 5'7 scocer short muscle shirt climbers ignoreing? Is this English? Add on to this: WTF is a Neb?
first that was taken from the gri gri forum and second I just cant sopell worth a damn typing with one hand and picture crop with other lol
new b - w = NEB
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primus
Nov 29, 2007, 6:43 PM
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MadDynoz wrote: primus wrote: climbsomething wrote: MadDynoz wrote: Are the trainers half-assing or are the cocky 5'7 scocer short muscle shirt climbers ignoreing? Is this English? Add on to this: WTF is a Neb? first that was taken from the gri gri forum and second I just cant sopell worth a damn typing with one hand and picture crop with other lol new b - w = NEB
Se that little "edit" button? You can change the title of your thread...
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hopperhopper
Nov 29, 2007, 11:02 PM
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due to a recent experience i've decided to watch any potential belayers catch someone else first. i used to let anyone belay me as long as they were a member of the gym (thus having completed the belay competence test, whatever that's worth).
i asked a guy i had seen around for a while to belay me on a route i was working on. the first part was a roof sequence so i told him to keep the rope a little loose so it wasn't pulling me off. before i hopped on the wall i looked at his ATC and saw that the rope was backwards (tail came out the top). i kindly corrected him, chalking it up as a stupid mistake. i start crankin across and notice that this guy had 3ft+ of slack played out, and the roof was only 10 or so feet off the ground. i told him (a little less kindly) to pull the slack in. i got around half way up the wall and felt like i was about to peel so i yelled TAKE. look down, he's not even paying attention. TAKE!! "what?" TAKE IN THE SLACK-- fall.
i make it to the ground alive and (not very kindly at all) explain what take means. that guy will never be on the ground end of my rope again.
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Valarc
Nov 29, 2007, 11:18 PM
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hopperhopper wrote: ... this guy had 3ft+ of slack played out, and the roof was only 10 or so feet off the ground. ... i make it to the ground alive...
I'm sorry, but I don't get the numbers here at all - was this a lead belay or a toprope? If it was a toprope it couldn't have been much of a roof. And seriously, a 10 foot high roof? Most boulder caves are that high, if not higher, and there's no rope to be seen. Hell the boulder cave in my dining room is 8 feet off the ground.
I would certainly hope you made it to the ground alive with your whopping ten foot fall.
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notapplicable
Nov 30, 2007, 12:06 AM
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Valarc wrote: hopperhopper wrote: ... this guy had 3ft+ of slack played out, and the roof was only 10 or so feet off the ground. ... i make it to the ground alive... I'm sorry, but I don't get the numbers here at all - was this a lead belay or a toprope? If it was a toprope it couldn't have been much of a roof. And seriously, a 10 foot high roof? Most boulder caves are that high, if not higher, and there's no rope to be seen. Hell the boulder cave in my dining room is 8 feet off the ground. I would certainly hope you made it to the ground alive with your whopping ten foot fall.
hopperhopper wrote: first part was a roof sequence
This to me (along with the rest of the post) implies that there was more route to follow, post roof.
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