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omalavet
Nov 23, 2007, 3:56 PM
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simple ? if i bolt a route on rappel and then climb it in the first try without falling ... thats a redpoint a flash or an onsight??
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flint
Nov 23, 2007, 4:09 PM
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whatever you want it to be. ultimatly, it only matters to you...
j-
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chossmonkey
Nov 23, 2007, 4:22 PM
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At the most a flash. If you feel out the holds and try some of the moves it would be a redpoint.
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zealotnoob
Nov 23, 2007, 4:25 PM
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I'd say flash.
However, if you're going to forego bolting on lead, why not just top-rope it? If you insist on bolting it, why not work the moves first so you can bolt it in an informed and intelligent manner?
Poorly planned rap bolting is bad style, regardless of how quickly you climb it.
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omalavet
Nov 23, 2007, 6:54 PM
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yeah now but some routes like overhangs roofs... are hard to toprope..... but ok ill just put flash wenever i do that....
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winglessangel
Nov 23, 2007, 7:01 PM
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zealotnoob wrote: I'd say flash. However, if you're going to forego bolting on lead, why not just top-rope it? If you insist on bolting it, why not work the moves first so you can bolt it in an informed and intelligent manner? Poorly planned rap bolting is bad style, regardless of how quickly you climb it.
Can't be flash, no way, redpoint or onsight.
if you, and only you alone did all this, no one gave you betas, you didn't see anyone there, can't be flash.
So redpoint or onsight? the question is: "rap bolting" = "trying moves" or not?
I guess if you touched no rock at all while bolting, you could count as onsight.
and specially: you didn't top rope to get there, you walked to the top by other route or trail and rapped from there.
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zealotnoob
Nov 23, 2007, 10:49 PM
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I wouldn't say rap bolting = trying moves, but it's certainly beta. I still say flash.
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onceahardman
Nov 23, 2007, 11:12 PM
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not onsite, unless you rapped down and bolted while blindfolded.
A sport FA is a redpoint at best. only the second (+)ascensionist(+) can flash or onsight
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winglessangel
Nov 23, 2007, 11:49 PM
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of course it can.
if you FA from the ground and are strong enough to drill and bolt with one hand while holding with the other AND bolt it all with no falls it is onsight!!
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angry
Nov 23, 2007, 11:59 PM
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winglessangel wrote: of course it can. if you FA from the ground and are strong enough to drill and bolt with one hand while holding with the other AND bolt it all with no falls it is onsight!!
Now you're argueing semantics.
There's lots of routes that are bolted, by hand, on lead with no falls. The RC.com collective (and in this instance, I agree) seems to pretty much classify these routes as trad, seeing as trad is an abbreviation of tradional and not cam.
I'm relatively sure the OP is not talking about that though.
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winglessangel
Nov 24, 2007, 12:08 AM
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angry wrote: winglessangel wrote: of course it can. if you FA from the ground and are strong enough to drill and bolt with one hand while holding with the other AND bolt it all with no falls it is onsight!! Now you're argueing semantics. There's lots of routes that are bolted, by hand, on lead with no falls. The RC.com collective (and in this instance, I agree) seems to pretty much classify these routes as trad, seeing as trad is an abbreviation of tradional and not cam. I'm relatively sure the OP is not talking about that though.
yes we are, but on the meaning of "is at best" and not on the meaning of what trad is, I wrote thinking in my mind a person bolting while climbing a strong, short 5.13/14/15+++ etc, route on a crag, a "sport route" for sure.
possibility of this happening? his "is at best" made it sound like something impossible, but I think it can be... so...
but, we are highjaking the thread, the case here is bolting on RAPEL...
(This post was edited by winglessangel on Nov 24, 2007, 3:40 PM)
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caughtinside
Nov 25, 2007, 8:02 PM
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zealotnoob wrote: I wouldn't say rap bolting = trying moves, but it's certainly beta. I still say flash.
No, if you're rap bolting, you had better be trying moves. If you don't, you may mess up the bolt placements.
I've rap bolted a few sport climbs and i have touched every hold on the face to check clipping positions and which directions sequences take you. Plus, you've got to clean the thing. You can't just rap down the face and zing in bolts wherever you'd like.
If you bolt on rap, the best you can do is redpoint it. But really, who gives a shit? you got the FA.
a side note. I"ve bolted some routes and my arms were shot from drilling and cleaning. So I let my buddy have it, he got the FA on a flash.
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shorty
Nov 26, 2007, 2:07 AM
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Not too hard to tell who's put up routes and who hasn't.
caughtinside wrote: zealotnoob wrote: I wouldn't say rap bolting = trying moves, but it's certainly beta. I still say flash. No, if you're rap bolting, you had better be trying moves. If you don't, you may mess up the bolt placements.
IMO, the best sport routes are "worked" quite a bit before being bolted. If one has made the decision to install bolts, the FA party must also decide to install them properly.
caughtinside wrote: I've rap bolted a few sport climbs and i have touched every hold on the face to check clipping positions and which directions sequences take you. Plus, you've got to clean the thing. You can't just rap down the face and zing in bolts wherever you'd like.
Few of us are blessed with perfect rock, where holds are solid and the best moves are obvious. I've seen FA parties spend many, many days working a pitch to confirm the sequence, be certain that the holds are solid, and to finally sink the bolts. My own routes tend not to be so involved, but 2 or 3 days to develop one pitch is quite common. And after one has determined that the holds are solid, the moves make sense, the choss/lichen is removed, and the bolt locations are marked, the actual drilling time will likely done in much less than an hour.
caughtinside wrote: If you bolt on rap, the best you can do is redpoint it. But really, who gives a shit? you got the FA.
Exactly. I don't care if the FA party took 2 bizillion runs on the route before they sent it. Down the road that information will probably be lost, anyway. People will remember the route for it's quality, then maybe who put it up.
caughtinside wrote: a side note. I"ve bolted some routes and my arms were shot from drilling and cleaning. So I let my buddy have it, he got the FA on a flash.
For this exact reason, I only give a tentative rating on the day of an FA. I like to have second opinions from other climbers, plus another run at the route when I'm fresh. After hours of brushing lichen and grainy rock, sometimes just trying to grab the steering wheel on the way home is pumpy. All too often I've been 1 or 2 letter grades off the consensus rating on the day of the FA.
To the OP -- If rap bolting is considered an acceptable method of developing routes in your area, don't get hung up on how you describe your FA. It will be an FA, plain and simple. Spend your efforts putting up a good route that will be enjoyed long after you move onto other projects and activities.
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flint
Nov 26, 2007, 2:30 AM
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If you really want to on-site the route, set up a top rope and onsite it before "retro bolting" the route. Truthfully, no one said you have to clip bolts to on-site. Hell, I have climbed routes where top rope is the only option, did I not on-site it?
Still going with the who cares put the FA stamp on it and call it done route.
j-
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joeforte
Nov 26, 2007, 3:38 AM
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I agree with the above. Get the onsight on toprope. Then let your friends climb it on toprope. That way you can make sure the majority of people can use the clipping positions SAFELY and effectively.
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zealotnoob
Nov 26, 2007, 2:34 PM
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shorty wrote: Not too hard to tell who's put up routes and who hasn't.
Fair enough.
caughtinside wrote: zealotnoob wrote: I wouldn't say rap bolting = trying moves, but it's certainly beta. I still say flash. No, if you're rap bolting, you had better be trying moves. If you don't, you may mess up the bolt placements.
...I totally agree--you better be trying the moves.
zealotnoob wrote: poorly planned rap bolting is bad style, no matter how quickly you climb it.
...but the OP's question implies that the moves weren't tried. If that is the case, wouldn't it be a flash?
Who cares, though. Spot on:
shorty wrote: If rap bolting is considered an acceptable method of developing routes in your area, don't get hung up on how you describe your FA. It will be an FA, plain and simple. Spend your efforts putting up a good route that will be enjoyed long after you move onto other projects and activities.
(This post was edited by zealotnoob on Nov 26, 2007, 2:40 PM)
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omalavet
Nov 26, 2007, 3:15 PM
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irresponsible bolting. ????? try bolting a roof on lead...!!! you people never bolt!!1 and you start talking about how its done .... thats bad.... olmost every sport rout you climb have being bolted on rappel!!!! for sure
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joeforte
Nov 26, 2007, 4:21 PM
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omalavet wrote: thats bad.... olmost every sport rout you climb have being bolted on rappel!!!! for sure
Not 'Round Here Boy!
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omalavet
Nov 26, 2007, 10:39 PM
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around there were 5.3, 5.4, 5.10 crag.... try to do that on a 5.13 overhang roof... or just a 5.13..... overhanguin wall.... from the ground up
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overlord
Nov 26, 2007, 11:42 PM
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you cannot bolt a route and than claim an onsight. if you bolted it, its a redpoint. but be glad for it, a FA is worth much more than an OS, at least in my book.
you can however get a sport onsight FA if someone else does the bolting
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flint
Nov 27, 2007, 2:45 AM
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flint wrote: whatever you want it to be. ultimatly, it only matters to you... j- |
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rockguide
Dec 1, 2007, 2:40 AM
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winglessangel wrote: of course it can. if you FA from the ground and are strong enough to drill and bolt with one hand while holding with the other AND bolt it all with no falls it is onsight!!
Yes
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