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curt
Dec 2, 2007, 7:03 PM
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I would actually like to believe that CCH products will once again be good. I agree that the design is excellent. At this point, however, the company has a lot of bad PR to get past. I suppose only time will tell.
Curt
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billcoe_
Dec 2, 2007, 11:11 PM
Post #27 of 67
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InsolentMinx wrote: In the meantime, I will still buy aliens and send to my consultants for inspection before I climb on them. Minx
I see that deep down you do not trust them any more than the rest of us who have seen all these failures. Thats fine for you to send them out to a 3rd party for testing: however, this is the Alien story for the rest of us:
I know a guy how once put a single round in a revolver, spun it, put the metal to his head and squeezed the trigger with the barrel right at his temple. Turns out that the bullet was in another chamber and he didn't blow his brains out.
It worked out fine for him. So based on that, I'm sure you'll be OK as well.
Especially if you happen to have a consultant with thousands of dollars of metallurgic testing equipment and lots of time on their hands so you- and they can double check that you do have not won the lottery of death due to shit products and process's.
Congratulations.
_______________________________________________
BTW, I have never met a real lottery winer either, but I see in the magazines and newspapers that it does get won occasionally.
Why would you play the lottery of death that CCH is offering with the bad Aliens when there is not even a million dollar prize?
Just death is you draw the short straw.
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billcoe_
Dec 2, 2007, 11:42 PM
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These were all tested Aliens, for instance. The Yellow failed at 1100 lbs. 10 were GREAT! FANTASTIC! PERFECT! AWESOME! AMAZING ! INCREDIBLE! HELD WHAT THEY WERE SUPPOSE TOO!
Only 2 failed. Which means that 10 were GREAT! FANTASTIC! PERFECT! AWESOME! AMAZING ! INCREDIBLE! HELD WHAT THEY WERE SUPPOSE TOO!
Who wants to play death lottery?
You aren't Minx, as you know some independent lab you get yours checked at, you don't trust them either as it turns out ya loudmouth hypocrite.
_____________________________________________________
edited to add: " loudmouth hypocrite" and quote for posterity as it is beyond belief:
InsolentMinx wrote: So do you really believe that CCH is incapable of ever producing a good product again? I just purchased complete sets of all their aliens and sent them to our consultants who x-ray pipeline welds just to see. Everyone of them came back good. Then I had them tested on a strain gauge just to see what they would fail at. Every single one broke at the head or the axle well above their rating. The larger ones broke at more than double their rating. Yea, I remember the Pinto, the Yugo and the Firestone tire. Those were design flaws. Aliens don't have a design flaw they have an assembly flaw. That dude deserves to loose his ass for pushing his product in the name of more money and cheap labor. All these big name companies now have top of the line QA/QC to prevent that and produce a wide variety of products. CCH only makes aliens and should have known better than to risk their reputation by pushing their product. It's their own damn fault and now they may never be able to recover from it. In the meantime, I will still buy aliens and send to my consultants for inspection before I climb on them. Minx
(This post was edited by billcoe_ on Dec 2, 2007, 11:49 PM)
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diebetes
Dec 3, 2007, 12:00 AM
Post #29 of 67
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InsolentMinx wrote: My old man and I have climbed all over Europe and Africa and we have seen 70 year old men with the most wretched looking equipment you can imagine hanging out on routes that I wouldn't even touch. They see aliens hanging on your rack and they want to buy them from you right now for any price, it doesn't matter. They have a totally different perspective on climbing over there. Here in the states, people start whining when they spill coffee on their new Patagonia pullover. Give me a break. Minx
Deny it all you want, climbing is a priviledged activity. Sure you can be a "dirtbag" climber, but you can also free solo everything and not worry about gear. Which I'm sure you don't. So stop criticizing everybody else. When you WORK for MONEY and spend that MONEY on something, you expect it to work as promised. Otherwise, you could have saved yourself some time and not worked at all. Which, I'm sure, is what you do, cause you're such a minimalist.
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ja1484
Dec 3, 2007, 12:01 AM
Post #30 of 67
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curt wrote: InsolentMinx wrote: Big deal. You wait until all these manufacturers start making cams by the thousand just like cch was doing back in their heyday. Do you actually believe that CCH ever manufactured as many cams as either Wild Country or BD? InsolentMinx wrote: ...You place a cam or any pro for that matter in a crack and you assume the risk just like cars and guns... True. But, just as with cars and guns, they can't be grossly defective. Remember the Ford Pinto gas tank lawsuit or the Firestone radial tire lawsuit? Most people here who have posted negative comments about CCH cams used to be big fans of them--until the company pretty much proved beyond any doubt that they were no longer capable of producing a reliable product. InsolentMinx wrote: ...I don't give a shit how many photos and stats you post on the internet... Yeah, facts are a bitch... InsolentMinx wrote: you'r all a bunch of punks for believing that shit and then acting like frickin' crusaders wanting to lynch someone over it... Whereas you're simply a moron. Curt
Stuff like this is why you're my favorite Curt on this whole website.
$.o2 time: There have been way too many reported failings of Aliens, period. Let's recall that not all accidents and incidents make it to rc.n00b - so what we're seeing here is probably a tad lowballed. That's not to say they're failing left and right, but just the fact that we've seen multiple failures reported here in the past year suggests something is fishy. As Billcoe has said - who wants to gamble?
Regardless, enough aliens have failed in various ways to call their quality well into question. When was the last time anyone read about a C4 or PowerCam falling apart, under ANY circumstances?
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Dec 3, 2007, 12:05 AM)
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stagg54
Dec 3, 2007, 12:54 AM
Post #31 of 67
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With plenty of other good cam designs out there, why would anyone buy one that has a reputation for failing?
InsolentMinx wrote: In the meantime, I will still buy aliens and send to my consultants for inspection before I climb on them. Minx
Has anyone else ever met a climber who has his own "Consultants"?
Sounds a little fishy to me.
If you trust them so much and they are so great - why do you need to get them tested? - afraid of a little russian roulette?
In the meantime I'll stick to my C4's and TCUs. Haven't ever really heard of one of those failing.
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timfu
Dec 3, 2007, 1:05 AM
Post #32 of 67
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InsolentMinx wrote: ... I just purchased complete sets of all their aliens and sent them to our consultants who x-ray pipeline welds just to see. Everyone of them came back good. Then I had them tested on a strain gauge just to see what they would fail at. Every single one broke at the head or the axle well above their rating. The larger ones broke at more than double their rating.
So, you bought "complete sets of all their aliens" and broke all of them?! Why - I thought you trusted them - ???? Where is your proof that they all broke higher then their rated strength? And, how the hell do you test something "on a strain gauge"? That makes no sense.
InsolentMinx wrote: Yea, I remember the Pinto, the Yugo and the Firestone tire. Those were design flaws. Aliens don't have a design flaw they have an assembly flaw. ... Minx
I get it! Accidents are only negligence on part of the manufacturer if it is due to a design flaw and not an assembly flaw. I knew I was missing something. I totally understand all of your arguments now!
Minx, you are a moron.
Tim
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cracklover
Dec 3, 2007, 3:39 PM
Post #33 of 67
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Well, if you really want more opinions, here's mine:
I am in neither camp - I don't think CCH is the antichrist, but nor do I think they're the victims of a witch-hunt.
I would not encourage anyone to buy new Aliens, because it's quite clear that they have not yet proved that their manufacturing process is at a high enough level to be trustworthy. And frankly, I think their mishandling of the situation has been so serious, I think they should be punished a bit for that - they really put a lot of climbers' lives on the line with their slow response.
But with that said, I would also not encourage anyone with Aliens to shelve or sell them. I climb on my Aliens, and trust them... up to a point. Up to what point, you ask? Up to the point I've tested them to. I've tested all my Aliens to around 4-5 kN.
To my mind, that means that they are not grossly mis-manufactured. They are not like that horrible picture we've all seen of the Alien with the cable that looked like it was barely inserted into the head, and then brazed. My Aliens are fit to catch any moderate fall, and, when used in a redundant and/or equalized system, they are fit to catch the most severe falls.
Now I anticipate the objections to my argument - wait a minute, you say - I don't have the means to test my gear!
Answer: Bullshit. Any trad climber worthy of being called that should have the means and the ability to safely test their gear to 4-5 kN. Sure, it requires a little creativity, but who said trad climbing was supposed to be paint-by numbers?
But no - you say, (in an increasingly outraged voice) why should it be my responsibility to test my gear!? It should be good - I paid good money for it!
Answer: Trad climbing is about self reliance. I will never buy a cam and trust that (individual) cam with my life again, until and unless I've tested it. Frankly, I'm glad CCH had this QC problem, to open my eyes and put me back on the right track. The minute you think you can buy safety in the form of metal and nylon, is the minute you turn into a sport climber.
In short - I think that:
1 - CCH is fully culpable, and that Aliens are less trustworthy than many other cams.
And
2 - The responsibility or lack thereof by CCH does not in any way change the responsibility we each take when we take up the sharp end.
When I put 1 and 2 together, and throw in to the mix the fact that where I climb, Aliens simply fit better in many placements - they still get a place on my rack. Honest, smart people can put 1 and 2 together and decide to remove Aliens from their racks. But it's a judgement call - not the black and white issue that many folks make it out to be.
GO
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moose_droppings
Dec 3, 2007, 4:05 PM
Post #34 of 67
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InsolentMinx wrote: I just purchased complete sets of all their aliens and sent them to our consultants who x-ray pipeline welds just to see. Everyone of them came back good.
There's no welding done on those cams.
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erick
Dec 4, 2007, 5:12 AM
Post #35 of 67
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InsolentMinx wrote: Big deal. You wait until all these manufacturers start making cams by the thousand just like cch was doing back in their heyday. Spring time is coming around and everyone's gonna want cams. When I first saw those OP link cams I thought, now there's a big clusterf*k pile of pins and springs and shit just waitin' to blow apart when some idiot sticks it sideways in a horizontal crack and thinks he's in like flint. Then OP jumped on boards right away and started apologizing and all kinds of shit like it was their fault. You place a cam or any pro for that matter in a crack and you assume the risk just like cars and guns. I don't give a shit how many photos and stats you post on the internet, you'r all a bunch of punks for believing that shit and then acting like frickin' crusaders wanting to lynch someone over it. Minx
are you this happy when you climb too? god...
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badsanta
Dec 4, 2007, 8:44 AM
Post #36 of 67
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BD cams are made in China.
In reply to: Back in the day you could find good help to manufacturer and assemble your product. Nowadays, you can't find anything but "shit for brains" employees and Mexicans to work for you. |
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badsanta
Dec 4, 2007, 8:47 AM
Post #37 of 67
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Cracklover, tell us how to test our gear to 5 kn without damaging it. Hopefully this doesn't involve using a car. I'm guessing bounce testing doesn't go to 5 kn.
In reply to: Any trad climber worthy of being called that should have the means and the ability to safely test their gear to 4-5 kN. Sure, it requires a little creativity, but who said trad climbing was supposed to be paint-by numbers? |
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avitripp
Dec 4, 2007, 9:58 AM
Post #38 of 67
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Bill,
I own AND climb AND fall on Aliens all the time.....and I NEVER worry about them....it's the piece I have in below them I worry about
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reg
Dec 4, 2007, 1:37 PM
Post #39 of 67
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badsanta wrote: Cracklover, tell us how to test our gear to 5 kn without damaging it. Hopefully this doesn't involve using a car. I'm guessing bounce testing doesn't go to 5 kn. In reply to: Any trad climber worthy of being called that should have the means and the ability to safely test their gear to 4-5 kN. Sure, it requires a little creativity, but who said trad climbing was supposed to be paint-by numbers?
i think you could get 4k with some effort just bouncing.
(This post was edited by reg on Dec 4, 2007, 1:37 PM)
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jt512
Dec 4, 2007, 1:45 PM
Post #40 of 67
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InsolentMinx wrote: You don't hear the Russians or Europeans pissing and moaning about their equipment, do ya?
Never heard a Russian complain about the quality of Russian manufacturing? What next, Russian's don't drink vodka?
Jay
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cracklover
Dec 4, 2007, 2:13 PM
Post #41 of 67
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reg wrote: badsanta wrote: Cracklover, tell us how to test our gear to 5 kn without damaging it. Hopefully this doesn't involve using a car. I'm guessing bounce testing doesn't go to 5 kn. In reply to: Any trad climber worthy of being called that should have the means and the ability to safely test their gear to 4-5 kN. Sure, it requires a little creativity, but who said trad climbing was supposed to be paint-by numbers? i think you could get 4k with some effort just bouncing.
I doubt it. Unless you set up some force-multiplying pulleys.
GO
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cracklover
Dec 4, 2007, 2:25 PM
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I said you should be able to figure out how to test your cams yourself. And then you ask me how to do it? Well I will do no such thing. But I'll tell you how I tested *mine*. You are free to do your own thing.
Spectra sling around a big rock (~40 lbs). Haul big rock about 2 feet above the cam. Attach the big rock to the Alien (in a good placement that doesn't stress the stem).
So the attachment is: rock -> spectra sling -> locking biner -> nylon fuse -> locking biner -> alien. Then factor 2 the rock onto the alien. When dropped, the nylon fuse breaks, unless the placement was poor, in which case, the alien rips out. Or, of course, if there's a manufacturing defect, the cam itself would fail, but I haven't seen that yet.
The fuse I used in the first set of tests was: PMI 3mm Tech Cord. They rate it with a minimum breaking strength of 1.7kN. I made a loop of it tied with a double fishermans. If the MBS is exact, it should fail at just about 3kN. Though if there's a safety margin on the cord, It might put as much as 4kN of force on the cam before failing. It usually failed at the knot.
For the second set of tests I found a 3mm tech cord from Sterling, rated with an MBS of 2.6kN (perfect!) A loop of that should get me a force of around 4.5-5.5kN.
By the way, the biner on the cam takes very little abuse, but all the other gear takes plenty. After a few test rounds, with a big rock falling on it, the spectra sling and the biner attaching it to the fuse (which fall to the ground each time) were pretty beat up. After about 10 tests, the spectra sling finally gave up the ghost completely. So if you feel like playing along these lines, don't use your favorite gear. Oh, and the cams look great after the test. Certainly some fairly deep gouges in the lobes if they're set up against a crystal but nothing troubling.
Oh, and please note that I AM NOT ADVOCATING THIS METHOD TO TEST YOUR CAMS! The above is merely a description of what I did. If you do the above, you do so on your own terms. The above may kill you, your family, and your dog.
I have some crappy video I took that I could post if anyone wants. I doubt it's of any real utility, though.
GO
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jt512
Dec 4, 2007, 2:37 PM
Post #43 of 67
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cracklover wrote: reg wrote: badsanta wrote: Cracklover, tell us how to test our gear to 5 kn without damaging it. Hopefully this doesn't involve using a car. I'm guessing bounce testing doesn't go to 5 kn. In reply to: Any trad climber worthy of being called that should have the means and the ability to safely test their gear to 4-5 kN. Sure, it requires a little creativity, but who said trad climbing was supposed to be paint-by numbers? i think you could get 4k with some effort just bouncing. I doubt it. Unless you set up some force-multiplying pulleys.
This is the problem with "testing" your gear through actual falls during normal use. You really have no idea how much force you've put on them.
Jay
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azrockclimber
Dec 4, 2007, 3:20 PM
Post #44 of 67
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atpeaceinbozeman wrote: [image]http://widefetish.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1228&g2_serialNumber=1[/image]
This is great..... go ASH....
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azrockclimber
Dec 4, 2007, 3:38 PM
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InsolentMinx wrote: curt wrote: InsolentMinx wrote: Big deal. You wait until all these manufacturers start making cams by the thousand just like cch was doing back in their heyday. Do you actually believe that CCH ever manufactured as many cams as either Wild Country or BD? InsolentMinx wrote: ...You place a cam or any pro for that matter in a crack and you assume the risk just like cars and guns... True. But, just as with cars and guns, they can't be grossly defective. Remember the Ford Pinto gas tank lawsuit or the Firestone radial tire lawsuit? Most people here who have posted negative comments about CCH cams used to be big fans of them--until the company pretty much proved beyond any doubt that they were no longer capable of producing a reliable product. InsolentMinx wrote: ...I don't give a shit how many photos and stats you post on the internet... Yeah, facts are a bitch... InsolentMinx wrote: you'r all a bunch of punks for believing that shit and then acting like frickin' crusaders wanting to lynch someone over it... Whereas you're simply a moron. Curt So do you really believe that CCH is incapable of ever producing a good product again? I just purchased complete sets of all their aliens and sent them to our consultants who x-ray pipeline welds just to see. Everyone of them came back good. Then I had them tested on a strain gauge just to see what they would fail at. Every single one broke at the head or the axle well above their rating. The larger ones broke at more than double their rating. Yea, I remember the Pinto, the Yugo and the Firestone tire. Those were design flaws. Aliens don't have a design flaw they have an assembly flaw. That dude deserves to loose his ass for pushing his product in the name of more money and cheap labor. All these big name companies now have top of the line QA/QC to prevent that and produce a wide variety of products. CCH only makes aliens and should have known better than to risk their reputation by pushing their product. It's their own damn fault and now they may never be able to recover from it. In the meantime, I will still buy aliens and send to my consultants for inspection before I climb on them. Minx
unfortunately we are operating in a very unforgiving arena. I loved aliens... a lot of people did. It just isn't worth it. What don't you understand about the fact that they have been failing?
CCh cams have been breaking all over the place... there is enough chance for death as it is in the sport due to climber error. I don't need anything making it more likely that if I do fall I am toast.
Even if it did hold when I fell on it.... I would be thinking it very likely may not. That is enough to make me lose my cool on most climbs... it's all about confidence in your gear and your ability to place it properly. CCH has taken out the "confidence" part.. so ...I just can't imagine anyone using them anymore... WHY?
It's just like billcoe said.... pull the trigger.... 5 out of 6 times you're good to go.... 
good luck with that.
(This post was edited by azrockclimber on Dec 4, 2007, 3:39 PM)
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angry
Dec 4, 2007, 4:46 PM
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It's not quite russian roulette. One out of every six aliens failing? Nope
Still, I agree with you, the odds are a might bit high right now. I use my older aliens with the utmost confidence and will use them until they are totally and utterly worn out (probably 10 years from today).
As far as new ones go. Test them to your comfort level, trust them, or don't buy them. There's nothing more you can say on the subject that hasn't been said.
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timfu
Dec 4, 2007, 5:49 PM
Post #47 of 67
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Keep in mind that when buying gear you are also showing support for and endorsing the company that produces the gear. Even if the new aliens were to never fail, would you want to support a company that was secretive/sneaky and disrespectful to the climbing community and climbers that were impacted by the faulty aliens? Contrast that with the reaction of Omega Pacific in the last few days. I for one would not give my support to a company like cch even if their products were good, doing so would be endorsing their business plan - which I don't.
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angry
Dec 4, 2007, 6:11 PM
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timfu wrote: Keep in mind that when buying gear you are also showing support for and endorsing the company that produces the gear.
I do support CCH and I hope that they can once again be the amazing company they were.
In reply to: Even if the new aliens were to never fail, would you want to support a company that was secretive/sneaky and disrespectful to the climbing community and climbers that were impacted by the faulty aliens?
Now you're just making stuff up. Secretive and sneaky? No, they were just as shocked as you with the failure. Just because he didn't post up offering handjobs to the first 10 callers doesn't mean he wasn't scrambling to get the problem fixed.
There has been some serious mishandling of PR, a big omission of QC (they thought they had it when in fact they hadn't), and the owners demeanor isn't friendly - though it never has been.
In reply to: Contrast that with the reaction of Omega Pacific in the last few days.
In reply to: I for one would not give my support to a company like cch even if their products were good, doing so would be endorsing their business plan - which I don't.
Hell of a business plan. Blue collar climber comes up with something that people like. He starts making a few more and before he knows it he's not working in the coal mine anymore. His business grows beyond his dreams and he can't quite keep up. Mass production issues arise. The public wants his head on a stake.
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shimanilami
Dec 4, 2007, 6:14 PM
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Bravo, Angry. My sentiments exactly.
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j_ung
Dec 4, 2007, 6:15 PM
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angry wrote: Old Alien Comparison Green Alien = .3 Camalot = 0 Friend Yellow Alien = tight .4 Camalot = .5 Friend Red Alien = .5 Camalot = 1.0 Friend Orange Alien = .75 Camalot = 1.75 Friend (pay attention) Purple Alien = Tight 1 Camalot = 2.0 Friend Clear Alien = 2 Camalot = 2.5 friend or tight 3 friend. This isn't an exact thing though. For the most part, you can stick these pieces in the same size crack. Recently, aliens have added some pieces and some sizes have changed. I found myself unable to use a new alien next to an old of the "same" size. Here is the new list. New Alien Comparison Green Alien = .3 Camalot = 0 friend Yellow Alien = tight .4 Camalot =.5 friend Grey Alien = .4 Camalot Red Alien = .5 Camalot = 1.0 Friend Gold Alien = 1.5 friend Orange Alien = big .75 (tipped) = 2.0 Friend Purple Alien = 1 Camalot = tipped 2.0 Friend Clear Alien = 2 Camalot = 2.5-3.0 Friend
IIRC, mis-coloring units was also one of CCH's recent QC issues. 
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