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patrickm
Apr 22, 2007, 8:39 AM
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Earlier I found a post about an adjustable anchor tie in, but I can't seem to find the original thread.
It was a 10ft section of cord tied in a loop and pulled straight. The leading end was looped through a biner and then prusik'd back onto itself for adjustability when clipped to the anchors.
There was not a lot of feedback to the original thread. I have tried the setup with a backup and it seems to work but is there a downside to this setup (besides friction wearing out the area that the knot is frequently adjusted upon)?
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cintune
Apr 22, 2007, 12:08 PM
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timm
Apr 22, 2007, 1:15 PM
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There is no downside to this system that I'm aware of. The friction of the knot wearing the cord is absolutely not an issue IMHO ... mine shows no wear in that area despite tons of use.
Thinking about this more, the only issue I have with using this is the small range of adjustability. You cant tie in really short with a purcell prussic as you can with a normal daisy chain. But this hasn't been too much of an issue for my use.
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microbarn
Apr 22, 2007, 1:53 PM
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I haven't used this system, but it looks great. I am thinking of switching to it. I am looking at it, and I can't figure out why it is a problem tying in short.
If it is an extremely short tie in, then you can clip on the shelf of the figure 8.
If it is slightly longer, you could move the prussik AWAY from you. Then tie a knot and clip into the shelf of that knot. you could also tie a bowline or butterfly knot if you don't like clipping the shelf of a knot.
Am I missing something, or would this resolve your problem of tying in close?
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timm
Apr 22, 2007, 2:13 PM
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You should try this system. This is probably hard to describe in words but ... The problem in tying real short is that you are adjusting the system with a loop. When sliding the prussic towards you, you can only slide it so far before it hits the knot where the cord joined. But you still have a large loop of cord extending from you.
You have a good point. Yes, you can clip into the shelf for a shorter tie in. But I always clip myself to the shelf anyways as it makes the power point cleaner with two 2nds and it always makes sure that my rope is on top. Generally this is short enough for me but my point is that you can't clip is as short as with a traditional daisy.
Tim
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microbarn
Apr 22, 2007, 2:58 PM
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You missed everything I was describing. Let me try to clarify.
timm wrote: You should try this system. This is probably hard to describe in words but ... The problem in tying real short is that you are adjusting the system with a loop. When sliding the prussic towards you, you can only slide it so far before it hits the knot where the cord joined. But you still have a large loop of cord extending from you.
I understand. My suggestions get around this exact problem.
timm wrote: You have a good point. Yes, you can clip into the shelf for a shorter tie in. But I always clip myself to the shelf anyways as it makes the power point cleaner with two 2nds and it always makes sure that my rope is on top. Generally this is short enough for me but my point is that you can't clip is as short as with a traditional daisy.
You are talking about the shelf of the power point. I am talking about the shelf of the figure 8 in the prussik cord. So now, you can go all the way to a tie in point only 2-4 inches just like a daisy.
The second tie in area I am describing is ALSO on the pussik cord. This tie in is further away then the shelf of the figure 8, but it is closer then the limits you describe. Move the prussik cord all the way away from you. Now, you have a loop going around your harness tie in, the figure 8, a long length of 2 parallel cords, the prussik knot, and a VERY small loop after the prussik. Tie an overhand inbetween the prussik and the figure 8. Clip the shelf of the overhand, and you will be able to clip in shorter then otherwise, but longer then the shelf of the figure 8.
I don't have cord available or I would try to take some pics.
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timm
Apr 22, 2007, 3:03 PM
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microbarn wrote: You are talking about the shelf of the power point. I am talking about the shelf of the figure 8 in the prussik cord. So now, you can go all the way to a tie in point only 2-4 inches just like a daisy. The second tie in area I am describing is ALSO on the pussik cord. This tie in is further away then the shelf of the figure 8, but it is closer then the limits you describe. Move the prussik cord all the way away from you. Now, you have a loop going around your harness tie in, the figure 8, a long length of 2 parallel cords, the prussik knot, and a VERY small loop after the prussik. Tie an overhand inbetween the prussik and the figure 8. Clip the shelf of the overhand, and you will be able to clip in shorter then otherwise, but longer then the shelf of the figure 8. I don't have cord available or I would try to take some pics.
You are right ... I did misunderstand your original point 
I had never thought about what you are proposing. Doh!! I think that it's a good idea and I'll need to play around with it.
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moose_droppings
Apr 22, 2007, 4:04 PM
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Another thing that might help is the original lenght of the cord you make it up with.
The article pasted above says to start with some 30ft of cord, which is way to much for my use at belays. The longer I picured above was made up for a special lenght to use on my (experiment) climbing wall. The shorter of the 2 was made with about 8ft 7mm cord (if I remember correctly) and I've yet to find it a problem tying in short enough. I have had to extend it once (or twice) which is easily solved. Try different lengths of cord to make yours up to fit the majority of stances. Hope that helps.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Apr 22, 2007, 4:08 PM)
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cintune
Apr 22, 2007, 4:26 PM
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You can also avoid the knot by using a sewn sling; nylon or spectra, though spectra is slippy if the prusik isn't dressed just right.
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getsomeethics
Dec 4, 2007, 4:52 AM
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i recently got rid of my daisy for this system. wish i had known about this a long time ago, much better than a daisy and adjusts instantly. made mine with 3m of 6mm cord.
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jeremy11
Dec 4, 2007, 4:27 PM
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prussiks are used all the time in high ropes courses for lobster claws and for tree wraps for ropes course builders, and the challenge course industry sets VERY high standards for equipment safety. However, they all use thick multiline rope.
for range of adjustability, you could try tying a SEPARATE prussik onto an arm's length piece of rope so it can go all the way out and all the way in close. tie a big knot in the end so the prussik can't slip off....
however, the long tail flapping everywhere could get in the way, but this is present with any kind of daisy and adjustable daisy.
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diebetes
Dec 4, 2007, 4:37 PM
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Tying into the belay with the climbing rope is still the best method. No extra gear needed (except a locker), the rope is dynamic, you're already tied into it, it's plenty strong.... why wouldn't you tie in with the rope?
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ja1484
Dec 4, 2007, 5:08 PM
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microbarn wrote: I haven't used this system, but it looks great. I am thinking of switching to it. I am looking at it, and I can't figure out why it is a problem tying in short. If it is an extremely short tie in, then you can clip on the shelf of the figure 8. If it is slightly longer, you could move the prussik AWAY from you. Then tie a knot and clip into the shelf of that knot. you could also tie a bowline or butterfly knot if you don't like clipping the shelf of a knot. Am I missing something, or would this resolve your problem of tying in close?
I have used the purcell prussik as my personal tether in needed situations for quite some time now.
It's important not to misjudge the length of the completed rig. At full extension, you want it to be precisely your maximum arm reach. Fully collapsed it will be roughly half this length, for obvious reasons.
Edit: I typically find that 12-15 feet of cord is the right amount, including knots, for most people. easiest way is to start with more than you'll need and trim the excess.
I have found that if you need an attachment shorter than the shortest length offered by the purcell, it's usually best just to go directly into your belay loop and/or tie-ins. It's exceptionally rare that you need to go in this short - usually it's a comfort matter.
cintune wrote: You can also avoid the knot by using a sewn sling; nylon or spectra, though spectra is slippy if the prusik isn't dressed just right.
Not with Spectra, ever. It may work, but it's just a bad idea. Spectra is slippery, has a low melting point (NOT good for a friction knot) and is known to be much more vulnerable to shock loading. Additionally, it seems to break down more quickly than nylon with cyclical (repeated) loading, which this kind of tie-in is basically built for.
Nylon slings would be fine, but I find cord a bit easier to work with.
diebetes wrote: Tying into the belay with the climbing rope is still the best method. No extra gear needed (except a locker), the rope is dynamic, you're already tied into it, it's plenty strong.... why wouldn't you tie in with the rope?
Sometimes. "Best" is highly subjective. The first thing I would point out is that I usually use a clove hitch in the climbing rope as my primary attachment to the anchor, and then use my purcell to adjust my stance/hang for comfort.
More to the point, there are times when you need to attach yourself to things and the rope isn't an option to use. Multipitch rappel, especially with hanging anchors, comes directly to mind, or long pitches where spare rope isn't available. There are situations.
it's also worth nothing that Prusik knots in general seem to have some dynamic properties. The fact that they're made of nylon helps, but they also seem to slip at extremely high loads (~10kN and up, depending on number of hitches wrapped, what they're holding on to, angle of fall, etc.) meaning that although a fall on them may be unpleasant, it wouldn't be in the same league as falling on, say, spectra where there's a possibility of gear breakage and severe injury from the impact force.
The rope is definitely *preferred*, and should always be used as the primary attachment when feasible - I use my purcell mostly during the descent.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Dec 4, 2007, 5:20 PM)
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erclimb
Dec 4, 2007, 5:31 PM
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what about the easy daisy: http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/easydaisies.htm
i know this is for body weight only, but i always back up my daisy with the rope, so this seems like it would be an efficient way to clip the anchor
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ja1484
Dec 4, 2007, 5:36 PM
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erclimb wrote: what about the easy daisy: http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/easydaisies.htm i know this is for body weight only, but i always back up my daisy with the rope, so this seems like it would be an efficient way to clip the anchor
No experience with it myself, but I imagine it would work fine. I'd prefer a purcell for two main reasons though:
- Goes well beyond bodyweight strength
- Cheaper (tie your own from 15ish feet of cord @ ~$0.40 a foot)
All other attributes appear equal, more or less.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Dec 4, 2007, 5:36 PM)
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j_ung
Dec 4, 2007, 5:55 PM
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In all these threads, I've still seen very few good reasons not to just use the rope and only the rope for all my multi-pitch anchoring needs. And available rope length is the only one of those that stands out.
(This post was edited by j_ung on Dec 4, 2007, 5:56 PM)
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tomtom
Dec 4, 2007, 6:15 PM
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j_ung wrote: In all these threads, I've still seen very few good reasons not to just use the rope and only the rope for all my multi-pitch anchoring needs. And available rope length is the only one of those that stands out.
How do you and your partner tie into the anchor with the rope on multi-pitch rappels?
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thej
Dec 4, 2007, 7:04 PM
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this is a kind of dumb question, but...you are girth hitching the webbing wrapper side to your harness? If so, does the webbing make the hitching messy? It is a great idea to wrap the webbing to keep the cord from rubbing on the harness.
I would like to see some full extended lengths and some fully shortened with that length of cord, and anybody else who has one.
I am a clove hitch fan myself, yet i seem to never be upset that i have a 24"sling girth hitched to me with a locker on it, and at times would love to have some flexibility for length.
Also a small side note, I try to get in the habit of taking the girth hitched setup off every time i get done at the crag. It slows things down but it makes good practice to not cause uneven wear and tear on belay loops and contact points.
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shimanilami
Dec 4, 2007, 8:21 PM
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tomtom wrote: j_ung wrote: In all these threads, I've still seen very few good reasons not to just use the rope and only the rope for all my multi-pitch anchoring needs. And available rope length is the only one of those that stands out. How do you and your partner tie into the anchor with the rope on multi-pitch rappels?
I'm with j_ung on this. Why not just clove hitch to the anchor with the rope? It seems like setting this thing up at each belay is a CF waiting to happen, as is keeping it girth-hitched to your harness while climbing.
For rappeling, I girth hitch two slings to my belay loop and clip each into the achor(s). It's redundant and couldn't be simpler.
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moose_droppings
Dec 5, 2007, 12:58 AM
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thej wrote: this is a kind of dumb question, but...you are girth hitching the webbing wrapper side to your harness? If so, does the webbing make the hitching messy? It is a great idea to wrap the webbing to keep the cord from rubbing on the harness. I would like to see some full extended lengths and some fully shortened with that length of cord, and anybody else who has one. I am a clove hitch fan myself, yet i seem to never be upset that i have a 24"sling girth hitched to me with a locker on it, and at times would love to have some flexibility for length. Also a small side note, I try to get in the habit of taking the girth hitched setup off every time i get done at the crag. It slows things down but it makes good practice to not cause uneven wear and tear on belay loops and contact points.
Nope, no girth hitching. When I get to my belay while roped soloing, I'll build my anchor, then take the looped end with the webbing and clip it to my power point, the other two loops clip to my belay biner holding my rap device that is always on my harness belay loop when I solo. I then free myself from self belay and tie an 8 in the end of the rope and clip it to the PP. Next I rig my rap, unclip the purcell from my belay biner, leaving it hanging from the power point till I get back up from rapping and cleaning the pitch. Then I'll clip back into it and set up my self belay once more, clip the purcell back on my harness, repeat per pitch. And yes, for a few secs I'm only connected to the anchor by the one purcell, which is situational depending on my comfort at the belay. I rope solo with a soloist which is connected to my harness with 9mm cord running thru the tie in points on the bottom and the top clipped to my chest harness, so there's no cluster factor between the belay biner and the soloist.
When climbing with my partner, I'll still clove in with the rope first, then back it up with the purcell.
Guess you didn't know the purcell prusik worked either side up eh.
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erclimb
Dec 5, 2007, 1:14 AM
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diebetes wrote: Tying into the belay with the climbing rope is still the best method. No extra gear needed (except a locker), the rope is dynamic, you're already tied into it, it's plenty strong.... why wouldn't you tie in with the rope?
i want a quick anchor and one that i can manipulate with one hand, especially on a hanging belay...on a trad anchor, i will often find my best placement and clip into that so i can relax a little and hopefully use two hands to build the rest of my anchor
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diebetes
Dec 5, 2007, 2:01 AM
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shimanilami wrote: tomtom wrote: j_ung wrote: In all these threads, I've still seen very few good reasons not to just use the rope and only the rope for all my multi-pitch anchoring needs. And available rope length is the only one of those that stands out. How do you and your partner tie into the anchor with the rope on multi-pitch rappels? I'm with j_ung on this. Why not just clove hitch to the anchor with the rope? It seems like setting this thing up at each belay is a CF waiting to happen, as is keeping it girth-hitched to your harness while climbing. For rappeling, I girth hitch two slings to my belay loop and clip each into the achor(s). It's redundant and couldn't be simpler.
Way to leave me out.
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thej
Dec 5, 2007, 4:19 AM
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moose_droppings wrote: Guess you didn't know the purcell prusik worked either side up eh.
didn't think about it really. makes sense it does. what about measurements?
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ja1484
Dec 5, 2007, 5:14 AM
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moose_droppings wrote: And yes, for a few secs I'm only connected to the anchor by the one purcell, which is situational depending on my comfort at the belay.
Redundancy is overrated in many scenarios anyway. When I do a direct rope anchor onto a bolted station (i.e. double-loop 8, one bolt per loop) I don't even bother with a second anchor connection - the climbing rope by itself is good enough for me.
Some people have (really silly) arguments about this, but if you can take a lead fall on nothing but the rope, you can damn sure sit at the anchor on the same.
Same with rappelling - I rarely clip into a rap station with more than just my single purcell, although if I have doubts I may back it up with another sling.
There really is no right or wrong way - it's a judgement thing that changes per situation.
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karlbaba
Dec 5, 2007, 10:08 AM
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j_ung wrote: In all these threads, I've still seen very few good reasons not to just use the rope and only the rope for all my multi-pitch anchoring needs. And available rope length is the only one of those that stands out.
Daisies are great for multipitch raps. A regular sling puts you at a fixed distance which may not suit you. When I lead in blocks, I clip in with both the rope and a daisy. I flake the rope back and forth over a slight dip in the rope and then, then I switch rope ends with my partner when they arrive at the anchor and clip in with their daisy. That way the rope is flaked perfectly and I'm ready to lead again.
I like to get some weight on my harness and off my feet for long belays. Having the daisy adjust to just the right length is cozy. Also, if my partner runs out of rope, I can give em a little by taking the rope off the anchor. If I had to escape the belay, I'd be better set with a daisy clip in. (I clip in with the rope too)
Don't even get me started about walls.
I hang my pack off my daisy when I'm climbing a tight chimney.
If I get blown, I can use the daisy to hang-dog without hassling my partner or dealing with rope stretch. If bad comes to worse, The daisy is a godsend if you have to do makeshift aid. (hey, I couldn't free the 5.12 on Crucifix, it was still a fine route)
I could go on and on.
Peace
karl
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