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uasunflower
Dec 13, 2007, 5:04 PM
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so-0-0 i want to go to yose this spring and plan to do one or two big walls there. Was thinking about getting a haul bag that could also be used to transport stuff on the airplane flights...
what would be the best bags out there, durability/convenience/price-wise? Fish? BD? Metolius? Is 100lt the best one to take? Anything else i should consider before buying? Anyone has a used one to sell?
thx!
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coastal_climber
Dec 13, 2007, 8:16 PM
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I've heard that BD and Metolius are good for durability. Haven't heard the same for Fish though.
>Cam
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moof
Dec 13, 2007, 8:33 PM
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I have an A5 TNF, and a Fish Budget. I've used a couple of my partner's Metolius'. I have not used BD or Madrock.
Metolius: Both were burly and carried just find. They are overbuilt to the point fo being a bit heavy, a good 1.5-2x the weight of the equivalent Fish for example. Every pound counts, so this is worth note. Neither showed any wear after a fair amount of hauling. Bomber, expensive, and heavy
BD: Rumor only. Universal disdain for their material, apparently it is just wimpy and wears through alarmingly fast. No first hand experience, but enough rumors to keep me from considering them.
Fish: No complaints, and after 3 walls, and 6 more failures mine looks broken in, but far from worn out. Great bang for the buck, but not as durable as Metolius. My opinion is you are better buying one Fish for half the price and repalcing it in a decade when it wears out, having saved several lbs on every carry, and every haul in the intervening years.
Beware that the vast majority of big wall gear never makes it up the big stone. In all likelyhod you might do a few walls in your wall career if your lucky, so be careful how much you spend finding out how much you like suffering.
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cosmin
Dec 13, 2007, 9:21 PM
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check this:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1586654;page=unread#unread
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russwalling
Dec 13, 2007, 10:14 PM
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coastal_climber wrote: I've heard that BD and Metolius are good for durability. Haven't heard the same for Fish though. >Cam
Elaborate please.
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coastal_climber
Dec 13, 2007, 11:26 PM
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russwalling wrote: coastal_climber wrote: I've heard that BD and Metolius are good for durability. Haven't heard the same for Fish though. >Cam Elaborate please.
On Fish products? I've heard they aren't well made, and don't last as long as other pigs.
>Cam
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crotch
Dec 13, 2007, 11:38 PM
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I wonder what percentage of haulbags purchased actually make it to the top of a big wall? I'm guessing less than half. Any haulbag you can buy will probably outlast your wall ambitions unless you are Ammon or Kate provided you know how to pack.
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giza
Dec 13, 2007, 11:50 PM
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Hey coastal_climber,
I suspect that you don't have any Fish products and don't know anyone who does. Be careful about what and who you slag on the internet - this is a small community and for all you know, someone who designs and manufactures these products may be reading this very thread.
Until you have personal experience with this stuff (haulbags, Fish products, etc..), you should consider keeping your opinion to yourself.
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ja1484
Dec 14, 2007, 12:12 AM
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giza wrote: Hey coastal_climber, I suspect that you don't have any Fish products and don't know anyone who does. Be careful about what and who you slag on the internet - this is a small community and for all you know, someone who designs and manufactures these products may be reading this very thread. Until you have personal experience with this stuff (haulbags, Fish products, etc..), you should consider keeping your opinion to yourself.
Don't be absurd. Anyone in that kind of situation would have plain evidence of their affiliation somewhere in the post.
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coastal_climber
Dec 14, 2007, 12:57 AM
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giza wrote: Hey coastal_climber, I suspect that you don't have any Fish products and don't know anyone who does. Be careful about what and who you slag on the internet - this is a small community and for all you know, someone who designs and manufactures these products may be reading this very thread. Until you have personal experience with this stuff (haulbags, Fish products, etc..), you should consider keeping your opinion to yourself.
Since I'm starting aid, and hope to do some walls in the future, I asked a knowledgeable friend (who has been climbing for quite a while) what sort of haulbag I should get. They recommended a BD or Metolius Bag, and not a Fish one for the reasons mentioned.
I'm just giving the OP the info I've heard.
>Cam
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russwalling
Dec 14, 2007, 1:16 AM
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coastal_climber wrote: giza wrote: Hey coastal_climber, I suspect that you don't have any Fish products and don't know anyone who does. Be careful about what and who you slag on the internet - this is a small community and for all you know, someone who designs and manufactures these products may be reading this very thread. Until you have personal experience with this stuff (haulbags, Fish products, etc..), you should consider keeping your opinion to yourself. Since I'm starting aid, and hope to do some walls in the future, I asked a knowledgeable friend (who has been climbing for quite a while) what sort of haulbag I should get. They recommended a BD or Metolius Bag, and not a Fish one for the reasons mentioned. I'm just giving the OP the info I've heard. >Cam
Glad we got that cleared up. FISH stuff sucks ass. Don't buy it.
(This post was edited by russwalling on Dec 14, 2007, 1:19 AM)
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addicted2alpine
Dec 14, 2007, 4:23 AM
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russwalling wrote: coastal_climber wrote: giza wrote: Hey coastal_climber, I suspect that you don't have any Fish products and don't know anyone who does. Be careful about what and who you slag on the internet - this is a small community and for all you know, someone who designs and manufactures these products may be reading this very thread. Until you have personal experience with this stuff (haulbags, Fish products, etc..), you should consider keeping your opinion to yourself. Since I'm starting aid, and hope to do some walls in the future, I asked a knowledgeable friend (who has been climbing for quite a while) what sort of haulbag I should get. They recommended a BD or Metolius Bag, and not a Fish one for the reasons mentioned. I'm just giving the OP the info I've heard. >Cam Glad we got that cleared up. FISH stuff sucks ass. Don't buy it.
this made me laugh. like, really laugh.
its almost like your affiliated to FISH or something.
(This post was edited by addicted2alpine on Dec 14, 2007, 4:26 AM)
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skinner
Dec 14, 2007, 1:32 PM
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moof wrote: Beware that the vast majority of big wall gear never makes it up the big stone. In all likelyhod you might do a few walls in your wall career if your lucky, so be careful how much you spend finding out how much you like suffering.
Good point.. my extensive research has revealed that Metolius, BD, and Fish, all wear at about the same rate in ones basement. Here's couple tips I've gathered along the way.
If you stuff it with newspaper, you will really impress the neighbors while wearing it on your morning jog, This will also give it the appearance of being full for poser-approach photos. (remember to grimace).
By dragging it down a gravel road, you'll get rid of that "new" sheen, and your friends will assume that there is a horrendous tale of terror associated with each scuff mark as you tour them through your basement, showing off your collection of big wall gear.
Hope this Helps
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guccipiggy
Dec 14, 2007, 1:56 PM
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Reading your bedtime stories gave me the impression that you are a grouchy, no nonsense SOB. Good to see you in fine form.
Thanks for filling my order by the way.
Wish I ordered one of your haul bags too. A little out of my budget right now and a few(?) years away from getting on a big wall.
I'll find out for myself how much FISH stuff sucks once I try my ladder aiders later this month.
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xtrmecat
Dec 14, 2007, 2:11 PM
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I have been waiting my turn to find out how bad "Fish Gear Sucks". Hope to find out soon.
Bob
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xtrmecat
Dec 14, 2007, 3:21 PM
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Cam, I was wondering, seeing as how you have an experienced friend/mentor to help with the gear selection and such. Should I consider cancelling my Fish Bigwall Gear order and get some of the brand name stuff? I have a prepaid order for some time now and if I got a refund I could be stroking some shiny new Black Diamond or Metolious ledge before Christmas.
I am getting on something big this month and even bigger in March. May I intend to send a Yosemite big route and I do not want to be relying on some inferior pile of crap to get me up safely should the weather turn for the worse.
Please ask your friend as this is important to me and my life will be hanging on making the best decision here.
Bob
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moof
Dec 14, 2007, 3:51 PM
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russwalling wrote: Glad we got that cleared up. FISH stuff sucks ass. Don't buy it.
To elaborate on what that Russ wacko said:
There are a couple key things that FISH haulbags don't have:
First, FISH does not do a fancy RF welded side seam, resulting in a ridge along the inside of the bag. I have not gotten excess wear there, but it is a spot that is more prone to it.
Fish comes in one color only, white. No dark blue, bright yellow, highway orange, etc. On rare occasion FISH might do green or tan, depending on what's on sale to him. Also keep in mind that if you end up with a dark blue haul bag (as was the case with one of my partners) it will bake everything inside on sunny days. Melted snickers suck.
Fish has a simple seam at the bottom of the bag. This is where I have the most wear on the bag. Metolius and some other have a ring of webbing along the base as a rash guard. While this is the high wear spot for me, I estimates I might have used 20-25% of the life of my bag at most.
The suspension on Fish is not as great as Metolius. With 90 lbs on our back, life will suck. I wish Fish had load lifters and a sternum strap, but it still doesn't carry too badly. I believe this is the one area where there is a legitimate argument for Metolius or others. If paying an extra 1.5-2x for an improvement on the approach then go for it.
If I ever wear out one of my bags I'll hit ebay first, and FISH second. So much big wall gear rots for 5-10 years then resurfaces in yard sale mode.
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russwalling
Dec 14, 2007, 6:24 PM
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Hate to crack out of my SOB mode, but Moof is correct on all counts and one needs a small addendum: On the Budget Haul Bag, which I believe Moof has, there is no protective rings of webbing around the bottom and it is a wear spot. On the Grade V and Deluxe Haul Bags, the bottom seam is protected by webbing for longer life.
Crotch had a good point too... a well packed anything will last a long time.
Oh yeah... those other bags do have a more elaborate suspension, but always remember, it's a HAUL BAG not a PACK. Internet reports flood in daily about how crappy all the bags carry. Pick a brand, they've all had some softbody crying about how bad they carry. Easy cure is get a porter. Going rate was a 12'er to drop a bag at the base of Zodiac.
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uasunflower
Dec 14, 2007, 6:31 PM
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great, thanks for the debate, guys - a typical rc.com response, but i like it! 
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moof
Dec 14, 2007, 7:15 PM
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russwalling wrote: Hate to crack out of my SOB mode, but Moof is correct on all counts and one needs a small addendum: On the Budget Haul Bag, which I believe Moof has, there is no protective rings of webbing around the bottom and it is a wear spot. On the Grade V and Deluxe Haul Bags, the bottom seam is protected by webbing for longer life. Crotch had a good point too... a well packed anything will last a long time. Oh yeah... those other bags do have a more elaborate suspension, but always remember, it's a HAUL BAG not a PACK. Internet reports flood in daily about how crappy all the bags carry. Pick a brand, they've all had some softbody crying about how bad they carry. Easy cure is get a porter. Going rate was a 12'er to drop a bag at the base of Zodiac.
Thanks for the clarification Russ. My Budget bag is circa 2003, and is indeed a budget bag. It's good to know the spiffier ones add more than a storm collar (I sewed a storm collar onto my budget bag myself). I'd also comments that the same spot on my Fish ledge haul bags also are wearing faster than the rest. Might be worth offering a $5-10 upgrade to add an abrasion skirt to those too.
In summary: Fish rocks, but nothing's perfect. Supporting a fellow climber's liver destruction is always a worthy bonus when you buy Fish gear!
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russwalling
Dec 14, 2007, 7:21 PM
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As an aside... the Budget Bag is made from 28oz material and the Grade V and Deluxe models are made from a heavier and stiffer fabric that is 32oz material.
The ledge bag rim is a fix that is out now, and will be standard on all ledges starting in '08. We've been doing it on and off for about a year now.
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moof
Dec 14, 2007, 7:31 PM
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russwalling wrote: As an aside... the Budget Bag is made from 28oz material and the Grade V and Deluxe models are made from a heavier and stiffer fabric that is 32oz material. The ledge bag rim is a fix that is out now, and will be standard on all ledges starting in '08. We've been doing it on and off for about a year now.
Cool Russ! I've pondered ripping out the seam on the bottom of my two ledge bags and sewing in a rash guard, just too lazy...
I believe when I bought my haulbag the budget was using the same material as the rest. I recall feeling like I dodged a bullet when I saw the description change. I could be remembering wrong. Mine is pretty stiff.
I also remembered I have also used a partners Yates Fat Sac. Suspension was snazzier, but sure didn't feel any better when we traded loads. It did have snazzy rash guard on the top of the haul straps. I've also considered adding those to mine, but again, sloth sets in.
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russwalling
Dec 14, 2007, 7:39 PM
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Moof: easiest way is to just turn the bags inside out and cut the bottom off. Our ledge bags are usually long enough to lose an inch or so... then just sew on the "rash" guard and then sew on a NEW bottom. If you can sew, I'll send you the stuff for free and you can do the job. If not, send your ledge bags in and I'll do it for free, but you are on the hook for shipping both ways. And no, this is not a million eyes on this article internet suck up.... I do stuff like this all the time.... for free, for the guy living in his van down by the river, or the trustafarian up the street.
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xtrmecat
Dec 14, 2007, 8:16 PM
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Glad this got out in the open. And no Russ, I do not want to cancel my order. Pretty damn sure I'll get exactly what I will want to do the job.
I will agree that all bags suck when loaded to the hilt on a hot uphill approach. But if I want to climb, this is not going to be the reason for not going. Also I will beat the shit outta the bag and within a couple years the suspension will look like a fine piece of equipment next to the bag it goes on.
Bob
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mr_rogers
Dec 14, 2007, 8:41 PM
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giza wrote: Be careful about what and who you slag on the internet - this is a small community and for all you know, someone who designs and manufactures these products may be reading this very thread. Until you have personal experience with this stuff (haulbags, Fish products, etc..), you should consider keeping your opinion to yourself.
This is the most bullshit post I have read on RC.com, and that is saying a lot.
What? We might hurt Russ's feelings if we don't say anything but the nicest flowery statements about his gear? He's a small child with a delicate ego and it is our responsibility as consumers to make sure that he stays happy?? Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.....
Yeah, what CC said was hearsay. Big deal. It was clear it was hearsay and he didn't represent it as anything else. We're all big boys and can make our own decisions about who to trust on the internet: The guy saying "i've heard from a friend" and the guy saying "I have and I've used..."
I've avoided buying a ton of gear based on recommendations like, "yo, my friend has those and he says they suck." If I can, I talk to the friend. If I can't I assume that the friend ain't lying and it's his honest opinion that the item sucks. Then I decide if this friend's opinion is worth anything or not.
This nonsense about: "Don't pass on legitimate opinions about gear." is bullshit. This is an obscure sport that few people practice. The more info out there, the better. Just state where you got the info, and let the reader decide if your friend's opinion, your opinion, or some magazine's opinion is worth anything.
--------------------------
To the OP: make sure to check E-bay before you buy retail. Bags can go for cheap there.
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