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elcartero
May 11, 2005, 2:35 PM
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i've heard that it can be epic if you get off track? is it that hard to follow in the dark? who has the best beta online for the descent?
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jason_martin
May 11, 2005, 2:52 PM
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The Red Rock Supertopo book has nice photos which will help facilitate the descent in daylight. Epinephrine shares part of its descent with Frogland. If you've done this and are aware that the descents join, it can be helpful as well.
Jason
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vegastradguy
May 11, 2005, 2:53 PM
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it can be very epic if you get off track and, like many other famous descents, its one of those that is best to do in the daylight. the good news is that if you start at dawn and are reasonably efficient and comfortable at the grade, daylight should not be too much of an issue (its getting dark around 8pm, which would mean you have 14hrs of daylight right now...and no offense, but if you dont think you can do Epi and get most of the way down in under 14hrs, you probably should wait until you can....)
here's the skinny:
from the big tree at the top of the 4th class ramp:
1) head up and west onto the talus slope heading to the summit of the wall.
2) just below the summit hill, head to your right, following the curve of the hill.
3) once you're directly behind the summit, make a right and cross a saddle to the true summit (100yds, maybe more). DO NOT DROP LEFT INTO THE GULLY!!!!! (This is where most people make their critical mistake coming off Epi)
4) Once at the true summit, make a left and follow the ridge line back toward the parking lot. Cairns are plentiful and should guide you along the correct path. When in doubt, stay on the ridge.
5) A big ass collection of cairns- usually 6 or more of them all in one place- marks your turnoff from the ridge. At this point, you should be a bit past the saddle between the summit of Frogland and the ridge (assuming you can see the saddle).
6) Head left and down onto the slope.
7) Cairns mark the path, but you're heading down and somewhat to your left.
8) A couple of slabs mark the entrance to the above mentioned saddle.
9) Once in the saddle, make a right if you want to go back to your car. (Plan on not leaving anything at the base and you'll save probably an hour or two on the descent in the dark...)
10) You're now on the descent for Froglands- continue down the large gully, following the cairns.
11) Eventually, you'll reach the base of the gully and a trail will appear heading to the left.
12) Once on the trail, follow it around the toe of the peak on your left.
13) Look for a turn off heading straight down toward the mouth of the canyon.
14) From there, follow that trail down the slope to the main trail and make a right and head back to the parking lot.
The part that messes most people up is that they either drop into the big gully just behind the summit of the wall instead of continuing to the ridge or they drop off the ridge too soon and head into the gully. There are no rappells on this descent, if you have to rappel, you've dropped off too soon. This descent is a casual walk for the most part with a couple of scrambling sections that barely can be called 4th class.
Good luck and have fun- Epi's a great climb. Be efficient, though- I've heard that descent sucks in the dark.
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ddriver
May 11, 2005, 4:41 PM
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I'd say the odds of on-sighting that descent in the dark are pretty poor. In daylight it will take a solid 2 hours. With good moonlight and headlamps you should expect at least 3-4 hours if things go well. While the descent is largely non-technical, there are short downclimbs and complexities that could be real stumbling blocks in the dark.
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elcartero
May 11, 2005, 5:44 PM
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perfect! thanks for the specific beta. we're pretty solid desert climbers so i doubt we'll be doing this in the dark. i'll let you know how it goes.
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ddriver
May 12, 2005, 2:21 PM
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If you're solid on Wingate and can climb chimneys you'll be on top by 2:00, maybe even noon.
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vegastradguy
May 12, 2005, 10:22 PM
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wingate? god, i hope not! we've got us navajo sandstone down here....much stronger stuff than the creek.
if you are comfy at the grade and efficient, you should be on top shortly after noon. we stopped at 1:00pm and that included a short pit stop on top the tower.
oh, and do the ramp ropeless if you're a solid climber, that way it gets done in 15 minutes instead of an hour....
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ddriver
May 12, 2005, 10:53 PM
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I know you don't have Wingate. He stated he was a "solid desert climber," which around my parts usually means some proficiency with Wingate or similar. Point is, if he can climb Wingate he'll have little trouble with your navajo with all those little flakey things attached.
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vegastradguy
May 13, 2005, 12:04 AM
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i guess... :roll:
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ddriver
May 13, 2005, 3:47 PM
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In reply to: i guess... :roll:
Not to start a pissing match, but do you really not get it? Red Rocks, Joshua Tree, even the Owens River Gorge are all in the desert. You could climb your whole life at these places and not qualify as a "desert climber." It has a different meaning: see Bjornstad's desert rock series. He purposely chose to exclude other types of climbing even though located in that part of the desert, because they don't fit the style definition.
This a silly sideshow, but the climbing style at Red Rocks is no different than climbing in Eldo, and that's not desert climbing. So, if elcartero is a solid desert climber he will float up epinephrine. Any solid granite climber will do the same because the rock is so damn easy to climb.
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jsj42
May 13, 2005, 3:58 PM
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I'm sorry, but ddriver, I think you're talking out of your ass here.
Yes, I believe that a solid "desert" climber would generally mean someone who is a sandstone crack and tower climber, and would not refer to someone who is primarily experienced with Red Rocks and J Tree (even though these are desert areas). However, to say that Red Rocks is so damn easy is just wrong. Moreover, to say it is just like Eldo is wrong too. Perhaps you're trying to say that there is face climbing at Red Rocks, unlike in the "desert"?
Also, I think there is a high likelihood that one could onsight the descent from Epi, especially with vegastradguy's excellent directions. As long as someone hikes as far towards the parking lot as they can go before dropping down, the decent is very straightforward.
Lastly, I think both you and vegastradguy are being foolish in estimating topout and decent times ("a little after noon", "before one", "before noon."). I mean come on, it totally depends. I think the descent took my partner and me an hour, not between 2-4 hours... It just all depends.
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tenesmus
May 13, 2005, 4:38 PM
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Vegastradguy's descent beta is spot on. I think if you're in a big rush you can scope the most distant cairn and just head for it. It seems like you have to take a few more backtracking steps than you want when you stay directly on the ridge. Its not foolproof, but you could save a few minutes this way.
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tenesmus
May 13, 2005, 5:17 PM
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Vegastradguy's descent beta is spot on. I think if you're in a big rush you can scope the most distant cairn and just head for it. It seems like you have to take a few more backtracking steps than you want when you stay directly on the ridge. Its not foolproof, but you could save a few minutes this way.
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elcartero
May 13, 2005, 6:42 PM
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wow! lots of comments on my 'solid desert climber' remark. my interpretation: what i meant is that i know how to climb cracks, beyond the basics: awkward chimneys, offwidths, handstacks, etc. - and also recognizing the potential for sketchy gear on crumbly rock. and all this in a range comfortably beyond 5.9. not that i think i'm a badass- i'm saying that's a good definition of 'solid' in this context. and i never even went- trip got cancelled!!
i can't believe i just wasted 2 minutes of my life on this response...
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villageidiot
May 13, 2005, 7:27 PM
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The fine for being in the park after the gate closes is $100 per person. You are supposed to be able to phone for a permit if you are coming down and it is getting late, thats what the ranger said at least. We got lucky and he was in a good mood that night.
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healyje
May 13, 2005, 7:40 PM
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In reply to: 1) head up and west onto the talus slope heading to the summit of the wall. 2) just below the summit hill, head to your right, following the curve of the hill. 3) once you're directly behind the summit, make a right and cross a saddle to the true summit (100yds, maybe more). DO NOT DROP LEFT INTO THE GULLY!!!!! (This is where most people make their critical mistake coming off Epi) 4) Once at the true summit, make a left and follow the ridge line back toward the parking lot. Cairns are plentiful and should guide you along the correct path. When in doubt, stay on the ridge. 5) A big ass collection of cairns- usually 6 or more of them all in one place- marks your turnoff from the ridge. At this point, you should be a bit past the saddle between the summit of Frogland and the ridge (assuming you can see the saddle). 6) Head left and down onto the slope. 7) Cairns mark the path, but you're heading down and somewhat to your left. 8) A couple of slabs mark the entrance to the above mentioned saddle. 9) Once in the saddle, make a right if you want to go back to your car. (Plan on not leaving anything at the base and you'll save probably an hour or two on the descent in the dark...) 10) You're now on the descent for Froglands- continue down the large gully, following the cairns. 11) Eventually, you'll reach the base of the gully and a trail will appear heading to the left. 12) Once on the trail, follow it around the toe of the peak on your left. 13) Look for a turn off heading straight down toward the mouth of the canyon. 14) From there, follow that trail down the slope to the main trail and make a right and head back to the parking lot.
John,
As you know my partner and I did it in Nov. and to be honest I can't quite relate that experience to some of your description, but again I'm not a local or versed in the terms and the way you folks there describe things and theydon't necessarily work/mean the same to me I guess.
My description would be:
1) At the top of the vertical climbing head up the rounded arete/ramp up right (SW) [we did it unroped] and at the top go around the semi-circular "trail"/ledge that goes West to the end of the climbing [we did this roped].
2) Look back and left (SE) up a big ramp with a large tree in it and a notch at the top. Go up the ramp and over the notch putting you on the back side of the ridge line.
3) Go left (E) and up (initially) getting up to just below and sometimes on the actual ridge heading due East following cairns which should (more or less) become more frequent as you go East.
4) You basically want to go all the way back to the entrance of the canyon only on top. That means following the ridgeline all the back and out until you can look down on LV and the BV parking lot (the point where lots of big cairns are) - then head down. Don't leave the ridge until it is clear you are basically at the end of it!
In general, if you don't see a cairn every few minutes, especially heading down this last slope, you've gone wrong somewhere. And this time of year there is really no reason at all to end up on top doing the descent in the dark...
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flamer
May 13, 2005, 11:49 PM
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In reply to: I'm sorry, but ddriver, I think you're talking out of your ass here.
Don't worry ddriver, he's usually an asshole.
...climbing in RR is much different than climbing in other parts of the desert....and totally different than eldo.
josh
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gregory_huey
Dec 15, 2007, 5:59 AM
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Hello,
Let me add my 0.02 since I've done the Epi descent in the dark.
First, try really hard to avoid doing it - dark makes it so much more troublesome. The trail down is marked with cairns, and before the descent joins with Frogland's they are widely spaced enough that in the dark at times its hard to stand at one and see the next. So what will happen most likely is occasionally you will take a false trail. You will go a ways and start to wonder why you haven't seen any cairns lately. I strongly recommend that if you think you are on a false trail that you backtrack to the last cairn and try alternatives. I got the impression that until the descent joins with Frogland there really was only one way down, and that if you get off the trail deciding 'screw it, I'll just bushwack down' is a very bad plan. I think you'll either end up with even more back-tracking, or epic-ing, leaving lots of pro behind as you rap down. We got a late start (6am) and took our time on the chimneys, and the late-November days are short, so yeah - we ended up doing the vast majority of the descent in the dark. But I had the blessed foresight to bring a headlamp with a nice bright (3W) spot-light option. This helped alot - making it possible sometimes to see the next cairn from the current one. Once we joined with Frogland, however, the cairns were super-plentiful and it was no trouble at all. Anyway, thats the dark-descent beta I have to offer on Epi. Hope you don't need it.
Greg
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scott0708
Dec 15, 2007, 7:30 AM
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Hey,
I know there's lots of info to answer your question already, but I have a bit of a differnt take. My partner and I did Epi this past October, and it was our first big climb (3+ pitches). Were both solid climbers, but were just getting into trad.
The point of all this is to say that we took a looong time on the route, got off-route a bit near the top, and summited around 8pm (about an hour after sunset).
I had read that getting down would be bad, but it wasn't at all. It took about 2 hours.
I would definitely recommend you both bring headlamps, preferably one with a decent beam, which is very helpful in spotting the cairns. BD's Spot headlamp worked perfect for us. Also, while hiking in, just get a good look at the ridge and Whiskey peak and try to trace the path down from the summit.
Everyone above has given great beta, I would just add that, if you're coming down in the dark, look for the Luxor (the huge spotlight coming from Vegas) and it will guide you to the parking lot.
-Scott
ps, Writing this brought back great memories. The route was amazing! I'm looking at the time-stamps on the pictures we took, and our official summit photo was 8:06pm. The picture at our cars was 9:58 pm.
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