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aerili
Jan 6, 2008, 12:18 AM
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gobias wrote: Strength is bad for climbing, it just adds weights.
This is the dumbest statement I have ever heard.
Learn to express yourself correctly.
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hopperhopper
Jan 6, 2008, 6:12 AM
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aerili wrote: gobias wrote: Strength is bad for climbing, it just adds weights. This is the dumbest statement I have ever heard. Learn to express yourself correctly.
hmm...never thought i would agree with aerili...
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stevecurtis
Jan 6, 2008, 12:46 PM
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That isn't any record. I did 600 in an hour in 1996. A friend- an old Gunkie-Jay Philbrick- called it the "Climber's workout", and indicated that he and others had done the feat in the 80s. (Jay's shoulder was ruined).
No, we didn't have proctors assuring that each pull-up was perfect.
Anyway, I climb harder now, and can't manage more than 20 in a stretch. I never do more than 100 in a day, twice a month.
Steve, at 50
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themadmilkman
Jan 8, 2008, 3:10 PM
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aerili wrote: gobias wrote: Strength is bad for climbing, it just adds weights. This is the dumbest statement I have ever heard. Learn to express yourself correctly.
Can I try?
Strength training not specific to climbing may produce excess muscle weight that is not conducive to climbing, but may have other material benefits.
Was that sufficiently vague, but still well-stated? 
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coach_kyle
Jan 8, 2008, 3:48 PM
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Generally, getting in shape for a sub 16:00 5k requires running longer distances and times than this.
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buddysnack
Jan 8, 2008, 5:31 PM
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I am surprised no one has yet mentioned the Canadian legend Rob Chisnall. Rumor has it that he has done 17 one arm pull ups in a row (with each arm) and holds the world record.
Anyone know anything about this?
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jgill
Jan 9, 2008, 2:58 AM
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buddysnack wrote: I am surprised no one has yet mentioned the Canadian legend Rob Chisnall. Rumor has it that he has done 17 one arm pull ups in a row (with each arm) and holds the world record. Anyone know anything about this?
Lots of rumors out there about suspended bodyweight feats. This one sounds a little high, but that's not to say it's necessarily inaccurate. Lillian Leitzel was rumored to have done 27, merely warming up in a gym prior to demonstrating her one-arm flips on a suspended ring for reporters, but a careful analysis by Willoughby concludes she used momentum, as she did in her circus act, and that she could probably have done about 6 true one-arm pull-ups.
Doing 600 regular pull-ups in an hour seems counterproductive for climbers. 
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cchildre
Jan 9, 2008, 4:54 PM
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I wonder if my buddy with no legs can get in on this? He doesn't have to lift quite so much (no legs)...and pretty much his hands are his feet....via propelling his wheelchair...
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bachar
Jan 10, 2008, 3:43 AM
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I must say this thread intrigued me although I must admit haven't read it in it's entirety.
Like many climbers before me I started to do pullups when I began climbing, thinking it would help me up the rock. It definitely helped me climb a lot better. For the record I could only do one pullup in the "Presidential Fitness Test" when I was in the tenth grade in High School. I only beat one guy (name with held ) who did a half a pullup.
I knew that all the "really good climbers" could do tons of pullups - sets of twenty, thirty, fifty, and even more. After a couple years, I could do ten or fifteen at most. I heard rumors about John Gill doing one arm pullups with one finger as well as front levers and iron crosses. I decided I had to master those as well to climb at the ultimate level.
I got good at some of those things - iron cross, front lever, weighted two arm pullup, etc. but never as good as the record holders. I did get better at climbing and the strength gained from these training endeavors helped me improve a lot.
Now days I see so many ultra strong boulderers and climbers achieving things I never thought imaginable and they don't even bother with pullups at all. They just climb all the time and attempt the impossible and that seems to be enough to develop their strength to overcome their next obstacle.
They have an asymmetrical training system that seems to stress certain muscle tendon groups at certain times and at other times allows rest and regeneration.
Getting back to the topic - 600 pullups in an hour. That's ten pullups per minute for one hour. I think I could have come close but I doubt I could achieved that number - I didn't think it would have ultimately made me climb better so I never tried.
Cool stuff to think about!
Cheers, Bachar
(This post was edited by bachar on Jan 10, 2008, 3:49 AM)
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robbovius
Jan 10, 2008, 12:49 PM
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last night I tried some pullups on my home bouldering wall and did 3! w00t!
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cchas
Jan 10, 2008, 2:46 PM
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Where do you think strength is bad for climbing? Excess mass is not a good thing, but by combining catabolic activities (ie: endurance training) along with strength training you can be strong without significant mass. some muscle development may occur but also improved recruitment and the more contraversial interconversion of slow twitch to fast twitch muscle fibers. Coworkers are human physiologists and some are on the side of it occurs (and one did her PhD on it a few year completing it last year) and others say its BS.
Also development of core strength is important for relatively hard climbs, and I find for leading hard cracks, a strong back is beneficial.
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hogben45
Jan 28, 2008, 1:08 AM
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I must say, for me, being an ex-college football player (only played freshman year at TTU), excess weight is no fun. I can bench over 300 pounds, squat near 550, but pull-ups kill me. I am lucky to rep out 3 sets of 25 on a good day!! I am in the process of loosing weight but maintaining my strength. I can climb TR 5.10's on a good day, but I also loose endurance probably 3/4 the way up!! You guys that do 500+ pull-ups are insane!! Good luck skate with the 600!!
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triassic
Jan 28, 2008, 1:17 AM
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Aaron Shamy did 20 one arm pullups in a row, not too long ago and may have done more since then.
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jt512
Jan 28, 2008, 6:01 AM
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hogben45 wrote: I am lucky to rep out 3 sets of 25 on a good day!! ... I can climb TR 5.10's on a good day....
So much for the importance of pull-ups.
Jay
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goodmango
Feb 11, 2008, 9:22 PM
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[quote "jgill"]The late David Willoughby, in [i]the Super Athletes[/i], came to some interesting conclusions. He studied things like this for many years, compiling a great many statistics. He states that the number of two-arm chins (not pull-ups) one can do is equal to 6 times the number of one-arm chins one can do plus 18. Since I once could do about 7 one-arm pull-ups, perhaps equivalent to 9 one-arm chins (they are easier), I should have been able to do about 72 consecutive chins. I never did more than about 25, either chins or pull-ups. During WWI some American soldier is said to have done about 100 consecutive two-arm chins, but I think I've read that the record may be up to 130.
Willoughby has a list of (more or less) authentic physical feats like this (up to about 1970). He compares feats like doing several one-arm chins with additional weight, and simple one-arm chins, along with two-arm chin feats by using mysterious formulae equating all to a single two-arm chin with extra weight, then ranking these athletes. Kind of weird, but entertaining.
He does an impressive analysis of the legendary [b][red]Lillian Leitzel[/red][/b] and her claim of 27 consecutive one-arm chins in 1918, concluding that the most she should have been given credit for was about six. I concur with his analysis.
I'm going to do a new section on my website about these kinds of feats. 8^)[/quote]
Those stats are bunk. I wish that computing human physical capabilities was that easy.
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rgold
Feb 12, 2008, 3:14 AM
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jgill wrote: Since I once could do about 7 one-arm pull-ups, perhaps equivalent to 9 one-arm chins (they are easier), I should have been able to do about 72 consecutive chins. I never did more than about 25, either chins or pull-ups.
Yeah, I had exactly the same stats: 7 one-arm pullups on each arm, maximum of 25 on two arms. Even ignoring the pullup/chin ease question (since I never did chin-ups, I doubt they would be easier for me), I should've been able to do at least 60 2-arm pullups. Ha! No way!
On the other side of the equation that isn't, the gym I used to train in back in the day had a guy who could do 50 consecutive two-arm pullups and not a single one-arm pullup, so...go figure.
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jt512
Feb 12, 2008, 3:26 AM
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rgold wrote: jgill wrote: On the other side of the equation that isn't, the gym I used to train in back in the day had a guy who could do 50 consecutive two-arm pullups and not a single one-arm pullup, so...go figure. Endurance vs. max strength. Plus, it's a different movement. I don't think anyone would recommend training for a one-arm pull-up by doing symmetrical two-arm pull-ups. Jay
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ja1484
Feb 12, 2008, 3:47 AM
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jt512 wrote: jgill wrote: On the other side of the equation that isn't, the gym I used to train in back in the day had a guy who could do 50 consecutive two-arm pullups and not a single one-arm pullup, so...go figure. Endurance vs. max strength. Plus, it's a different movement. I don't think anyone would recommend training for a one-arm pull-up by doing symmetrical two-arm pull-ups. Jay
Jay's pretty much on it.
High power or high strength movements near a person's maximal capacity (say 90-95% 1RM) are, generally speaking, never going to be long term endeavors.
Exercise activity is metabolically limited across the board - i.e. there are three (some massage the definition and say four) prime metabolic pathways responsible for producing energy in exercise. Without getting any further into the gory details, the ATP-PCr, which provides the gas, so to speak, for high %age of 1RM workloads, is limited to about ~10 - 30 seconds in most people, depending on their level training and what that training was for.
Lower high intensities (doesn't sound very logical does it?), say 70-80% 1RM which are powered by a combination of ATP-PCr and Aerobic/Anaerobic Glycolysis (at the start of exercise) have a lifespan more in the 2-5 minute range, again, depending on training.
Moderate intensity workloads, 50-70% 1RM, are powered mostly by Aerobic metabolism (Kreb's Cycle/Electron Transport Chain), and most people are capable of these types of activities for many hours before exhaustion. A good example would be a 20 mile hike over the course of 5+ hours.
For reference, resting workloads for humans seem to be in the neighborhood of 40-50% 1RM, so in other words, your body has to expend roughly half of its energy producing capacity just to stay alive while sitting in your computer chair reading this post.
Hope that was at least slightly enlightening to anyone who bothered to read it...questions welcome, I'm sure there's some stuff in there I didn't clarify well.
What I'm getting at with all this: The gent who OP'd this thing likely had a genetic predisposition to being very very good at pull ups, because it's near-impossible for the average joe to reach world-class performance levels through training in most athletic activities. The saying in the exercise science world is that great athletes are born, not made.
Additionally: Training for single-arm pull-ups using two arm pull ups just doesn't fit. Look into the terms "SAID Principle", "Specificity of Exercise", and "Specificity of Training" to get a better idea why.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Feb 12, 2008, 3:52 AM)
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rgold
Feb 12, 2008, 3:51 AM
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jt512 wrote: Endurance vs. max strength. Plus, it's a different movement. I don't think anyone would recommend training for a one-arm pull-up by doing symmetrical two-arm pull-ups.
I agree. The endurance vs. max strength (different muscle fibers, more or less reliance on recruitment) seems plausible, but the fact that the movements really are different may be less intuitive, though I think you are right about that too, and I have another personal illustration:
At a later stage of life when I was down to 3--5 one-arm pullups on each arm, I also used to do weighted two-arm pullups. You might think I could have done two-arm pullups with double body weight , i.e. my bodyweight in weights hanging, about 155 lbs. Well, no way. I think the best weighted pullups I ever did were with 90 lbs; pretty sure I never made it to 100.
By the way Jay, I know you're biting your lip, so let me acknowledge that all that extra strength provided very little climbing benefit, certainly nothing remotely proportional to the time invested.
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robdotcalm
Feb 12, 2008, 4:43 AM
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jt512 wrote: hogben45 wrote: I am lucky to rep out 3 sets of 25 on a good day!! ... I can climb TR 5.10's on a good day.... So much for the importance of pull-ups. Jay
Actually what it is shows is that climbing doesn't help chin-up ability that much.
rob.calm
-----------------------------------------
"If it's not crack climbing, it's technical hiking." Fat Man's Climbing Club
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serpico
Feb 12, 2008, 8:48 AM
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rgold wrote: At a later stage of life when I was down to 3--5 one-arm pullups on each arm, I also used to do weighted two-arm pullups. You might think I could have done two-arm pullups with double body weight , i.e. my bodyweight in weights hanging, about 155 lbs. Well, no way. I think the best weighted pullups I ever did were with 90 lbs; pretty sure I never made it to 100.
Movement specificity aside there's also the bilateral deficit effect to consider:
http://www.sportsci.org/...ilateral_deficit.doc
Which could be taken as an argument for doing deadhangs one handed with assistance instead of one armed with weight (off topic I know).
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jimo
Feb 12, 2008, 1:09 PM
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That's insane, I'm shooting for 600 in a week, got some work to do though.
Nice to hear legends Gill and Bachar sound off, thanks for the inspiration.
Jim
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gobias
Feb 12, 2008, 4:22 PM
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aerili wrote: This is the dumbest statement I have ever heard. Learn to express yourself correctly.
Well how about you read my entire post, instead of copying the last line of my post.
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gobias
Feb 12, 2008, 4:58 PM
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Oh yeah, I forgot to insult her.
My mother can climb harder than you gym climber. Go climb outside.
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