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jeff_m
Jan 16, 2008, 12:53 AM
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There are a number of threads on individual protection pieces failing recently (Aliens, Link Cams), but I'm a bit shocked that no one's really raised a red flag about the Petzl Zephyr 10.3 60M problems.
I was out with a group recently and one of the ropes was a three month-old Zephyr that disintegrated within five top rope climbs. Again, the problem was in the area of the 6-meter mark. At the start of the climbing, the rope had some fuzzy spots, but when the sixth climber was being lowered everyone noticed a large section of core visible and bits of sheath dusting the rock.
Because the sheath didn't "fray" but "powdered" it seems there's a severe problem with the structural integrity of the actual sheath fibers. Upon analyzing the rope, it appeared to be only in the are of the 6-meter marked sections, which were noticeably softer than the rest of the rope. Rubbing the sheath in these areas with a fingernail caused additional "powdering." (The owner of the rope is a doctor of physics, so yes, there was quite a bit of testing and analyzing.)
The rope was returned to the retailer who has sent it to Petzl, but the owner of the rope has not been contacted. I was hoping for some quick attention from the manufacturer before posting this, but considering the ropes are still being sold and recommended by retailers, it's important that people be aware of this problem (which seems to be on a statistically "large" scale given the reports on this site---and even j_ung's follow up notes to his review address the issue).
Again, in a nutshell:
A) This was a top rope setup on a cordelette with two oval carabiners. The route is on soft sandstone and heavily used (meaning that there were no sharp edges, only flat smooth rock where the rope came in contact). A lot of the powdering was coming from the carabiner contact. Other ropes have been used here for years with no similar problems.
B) At the start of the climbing, the rope was inspected and good (obviously no core showing). After six climbs the mantle/sheath had started disintegrating and the core was coming through in two parts.
C) The sheath fibers were almost like powder all over the rock---not strands.
D) The problem area of the rope seems isolated to that one section of the rope; the rest of the rope appears fine.
E) And no, the rope was never exposed to any chemicals, nor left in the trunk of a car under the gas can. Neither was it under a litter box or wrapped around a leaky battery.
If I had to choose between having one piece of pro blow or my rope, I think the choice is obvious. If you or anyone you know uses a Zephyr, keep an eye on it. I'm sure most of them are fine, but this is something that needs to be kept watch over, since the manufacturer and retailers aren't.
Climb safe.
[Edited to emphasize the links]
(This post was edited by jeff_m on Jan 17, 2008, 7:18 PM)
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sthcrag510
Jan 16, 2008, 1:02 AM
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Good thing i decided to get sterling instead of a petzl. Thats nuts.
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caughtinside
Jan 16, 2008, 1:08 AM
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I've only seen a rope kind of 'powder' like that one other time. THe powdering effect wasn't nearly as severe, and the rope was pretty old, more than 5 years. Don't recall the brand.
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supersonick
Jan 16, 2008, 1:18 AM
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Love their quickdraws, love their harnesses, but these new Petzl ropes are the most unbelievably shitty ropes I've ever seen. It's laughable.
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majid_sabet
Jan 16, 2008, 1:18 AM
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it looks like those red marks are near the same area which tells me that you had a rope drag with some load on it.
How many times you lowered people on that section ?
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milominderbinder
Jan 16, 2008, 1:21 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: it looks like those red marks are near the same area which tells me that you had a rope drag with some load on it. How many times you lowered people on that section ?
In the same area?! You mean as in 'somewhere on the same face of rock' same area, or 'somewhere in the same state?' Those marks are everywhere!
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jeff_m
Jan 16, 2008, 1:26 AM
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Those aren't "marks." They are places where the powdered sheath settled on the face of the route.
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angry
Jan 16, 2008, 1:33 AM
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You can't really call user error on this one.
You'd have to belay over a ginsu knife, cheese grater, molten lava, and a laser beam to get this much wear out of 6 top ropings.
That's seriously fucked up.
Maybe they have an acid etching to show where the sheath is damaged?
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milominderbinder
Jan 16, 2008, 1:34 AM
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That's what I thought. The knowledge that there is so much of it, lying all over the place, is nuts.
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jeff_m
Jan 16, 2008, 1:43 AM
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I led on the rope (no falls) to set the anchor (comforting thought). The "powder" was near the top of the climb and since the rock has a lot of iron in it, wasn't noticeable right away.
I'm not trying to debate the set-up, rigging, friction, etc. etc. Majid. You could rub a Mammut, Maxim or Sterling across this rock all day long and all year long (which is what usually happens when I take groups out) and not notice a hint of fraying (so much for soft sandstone). This post was to address the issue that these ropes need watching, if not warning or recall.
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jeff_m
Jan 16, 2008, 3:19 AM
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[Removed redundant photos from server error]
(This post was edited by jeff_m on Jan 17, 2008, 7:19 PM)
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majid_sabet
Jan 16, 2008, 3:21 AM
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jeff_m wrote: I led on the rope (no falls) to set the anchor (comforting thought). The "powder" was near the top of the climb and since the rock has a lot of iron in it, wasn't noticeable right away. I'm not trying to debate the set-up, rigging, friction, etc. etc. Majid. You could rub a Mammut, Maxim or Sterling across this rock all day long and all year long (which is what usually happens when I take groups out) and not notice a hint of fraying (so much for soft sandstone). This post was to address the issue that these ropes need watching, if not warning or recall.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jan 18, 2008, 8:49 PM)
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zuegma
Jan 16, 2008, 3:26 AM
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Thanks for redoing the photos, i was having the same problem. Although i am suprised that petzel hasn't steped forward and taken action as this seems to be a rather large and potentially fatal problem. Hopefully you will hear something soon. Please keep us posted.
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stymingersfink
Jan 16, 2008, 3:26 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: What I like to know is how that rope ( if it is really few month old) got so fu*ked with 6 TR.
There is nothing in the pics to indicate why such wear would occur with the particular rope in question, especially on a route TR'd with many other ropes in the past with no resulting issues. This, combined with the fact that the Petzl ropes have only been on the market for a relatively limited time causes one to ask the question you have so succicently posed above.
(This post was edited by stymingersfink on Jan 16, 2008, 3:53 AM)
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j_ung
Jan 16, 2008, 4:12 AM
Post #16 of 156
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jeff_m wrote: There are a number of threads on individual protection pieces failing recently (Aliens, Link Cams), but I'm a bit shocked that no one's really raised a red flag about the Petzl Zephyr 10.3 60M problems. I was out with a group recently and one of the ropes was a three month-old Zephyr that disintegrated within five top rope climbs. Again, the problem was in the area of the 6-meter mark. At the start of the climbing, the rope had some fuzzy spots, but when the sixth climber was being lowered everyone noticed a large section of core visible and bits of sheath dusting the rock. [image]http://www.citycg.com/petzl/images/DSCN1111.jpg[/image] Because the sheath didn't "fray" but "powdered" it seems there's a severe problem with the structural integrity of the actual sheath fibers. Upon analyzing the rope, it appeared to be only in the are of the 6-meter marked sections, which were noticeably softer than the rest of the rope. Rubbing the sheath in these areas with a fingernail caused additional "powdering." (The owner of the rope is a doctor of physics, so yes, there was quite a bit of testing and analyzing.) [image]http://www.citycg.com/petzl/images/DSCN1125.jpg[/image] The rope was returned to the retailer who has sent it to Petzl, but the owner of the rope has not been contacted. I was hoping for some quick attention from the manufacturer before posting this, but considering the ropes are still being sold and recommended by retailers, it's important that people be aware of this problem (which seems to be on a statistically "large" scale given the reports on this site---and even j_ung's follow up notes to his review address the issue). Again, in a nutshell: A) This was a top rope setup on a cordelette with two oval carabiners. The route is on soft sandstone and heavily used (meaning that there were no sharp edges, only flat smooth rock where the rope came in contact). A lot of the powdering was coming from the carabiner contact. Other ropes have been used here for years with no similar problems. B) At the start of the climbing, the rope was inspected and good (obviously no core showing). After six climbs the mantle/sheath had started disintegrating and the core was coming through in two parts. C) The sheath fibers were almost like powder all over the rock---not strands. D) The problem area of the rope seems isolated to that one section of the rope; the rest of the rope appears fine. E) And no, the rope was never exposed to any chemicals, nor left in the trunk of a car under the gas can. Neither was it under a litter box or wrapped around a leaky battery. If I had to choose between having one piece of pro blow or my rope, I think the choice is obvious. If you or anyone you know uses a Zephyr, keep an eye on it. I'm sure most of them are fine, but this is something that needs to be kept watch over, since the manufacturer and retailers aren't. Climb safe.
Thanks for the PM heads up, Jeff.
I've wrapped up another round with a second Zephyr and have had similar problems, though I stopped using it before it got anywhere near as severe. I sent it to Petzl about two weeks ago and am still waiting to hear back about their analysis, but in light of this... well, your shots are obviously pretty frightening.
This is the Zephyr I sent back. The shot shows worn sections, about three meters off both ends, next to a lesser-used middle section. This is after its sixth and final day of use. All days consisted of casual cragging on NRG sandstone -- some lead, some TR, some falls during both -- certainly nothing different from every other rope I've owned. While I once thought perhaps I inadvertently exposed my first Zephyr to some sort of chemical, I no longer believe that was the case. I was extremely cautious with the newer rope pictured above, avoiding dirt, storing it in a bag, out of the car trunk, away from the cat, blah, blah, blah.
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puerto
Jan 16, 2008, 5:37 AM
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Adk
Jan 16, 2008, 5:50 AM
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And honestly I was looking forward to picking up this rope this year. Yeah it is considered a bigger purchase for me too!
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crankingclimber
Jan 16, 2008, 7:06 AM
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Petzl ropes suck. Mine has considerable wear, way more than Jungs, and after only 5 days climbing on it. They were a pretty hard 5 days, with multiple lead falls, but my Sterling has taken that abuse and more and is still going strong. The ropes are trash, and aren't even worth pro-deal price.
Will
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granite_grrl
Jan 16, 2008, 2:24 PM
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Has anyone experiaced these problems with any Petzl ropes other than the Zephyr? I ask because though last summer and fall I used my friend's Nomad quite extensivly (mostly sport, but also some trad at the Gunks and the Red). I have not noticed excessive wear on her rope.
When I first heard about these problems I thought it might be a batch issue, but now it seems too spread out over time. I'm just trying to figure out what might be different between hy friend's rope and the rest of these ropes I keep hearing reports on.
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socalclimber
Jan 16, 2008, 3:16 PM
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First off, contact Petzl and send them the rope. It would have been nice to have pictures of the anchor setup, i.e. how far the anchor was extended over the edge etc. Kinda critical to properly evaluate the whole situation.
Either way, it should take a pretty extreme situation for a virtualy new rope to shred like that. I live in Josh and do a lot of climbing on VERY ROUGH rock. I've only had this happen once, on top rope, on a rope that was old and was ready for retirement.
Keep us informed. PLEASE DON'T LET THIS THREAD TURN INTO A PETZL BASHING PLATFORM OR FLAME FEST ON EACH OTHER!
Robert Fonda
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dbrayack
Jan 16, 2008, 3:23 PM
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I thought it handled very well for my portion of use...and we were really nice to it...shrug....I'd used both Beal and Sterling...both quite good, though the Sterling takes a lot more abuse.
OT - I had a dream last night about a rope breaking...scarry huh? I was pulling it through the anchors when it snapped.
and its not like the rope is going to fail...just because you sheath is dead doesn't mean YOU'RE DEAD...the sheath just protects the core....anyways...take care
-Danno
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nthusiastj
Jan 16, 2008, 3:24 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: Has anyone experiaced these problems with any Petzl ropes other than the Zephyr? I ask because though last summer and fall I used my friend's Nomad quite extensivly (mostly sport, but also some trad at the Gunks and the Red). I have not noticed excessive wear on her rope. When I first heard about these problems I thought it might be a batch issue, but now it seems too spread out over time. I'm just trying to figure out what might be different between hy friend's rope and the rest of these ropes I keep hearing reports on.
I've had a Nomad for about 6 months and have been very happy with it. The wear has been comperable to all of the other ropes I've owned. It's probably got 30+ trad pitches and 15 or so sport routes. So far it's been one of the best ropes I've owned. I've heard similar reviews from the people at Neptune Mountaineering. They use theirs a crapload too.
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Rossco
Jan 16, 2008, 4:18 PM
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I use the Petzl Fuse 9.4 and, after several leads on ice, I really love it. I'll definitely keep a close eye on the sheath after reading this though, especially when I get it on some rock.
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cracklover
Jan 16, 2008, 4:44 PM
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Scary stuff, thanks for posting!
jeff_m wrote: Again, the problem was in the area of the 6-meter mark.
Can you say anything about why this might be? Is the rope any different at that point? For example, Mammut puts "end" marks about 5 meters from the ends of their ropes. Presumably these black stripes are to keep you from rapping off the ends of your rope. Were there any such markings on your Petzl rope?
Or perhaps the 6 meter part was right over the TR anchor. Was the climb you were doing around 6 meters tall?
Or, a variation on the last - perhaps the part that saw that damage was the part most weighted over the anchor. Was there a crux that was around 6 meters from the top, such that every time someone fell at the crux, that part would get weighted over the anchor?
Just looking for a little more info, since it's curious that all the damage was to that one point.
GO
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