|
|
|
|
j_jones84
Feb 10, 2008, 6:38 PM
Post #1 of 55
(8032 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2008
Posts: 10
|
Bought a Metolius Daisy Chain with one long loop on one end and one short reinforced loop on the other. In respects to cleaning anchors for rappeling.. how do I use this correctly? I've read the DC is very commonly misused, I've also seen the Black Diamond video of the catastrophic failure of short clipping. I've googled several combinations, found one telling me to clove hitch a biner to the long loop, but what I am really after is a diagram, video, or series of pictures showing me how to clean an anchor correctly using a daisy chain. I can figure it out using two runners girthed to my harness.. but I heard using a DC was quicker and easier, so I bought it expecting to find some instructions, googled and all I found were warnings and death scenarios.. so I'm gun-shy about playing around with this without knowing how to use it properly. Can anyone help a noob out? Thanks in advance "FLAME ON!"
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Feb 10, 2008, 7:14 PM
Post #2 of 55
(8011 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
daisy chains are not quicker or easier than a pair of runners. they also have alot of potential to be used in a dangerous way (as you've discovered). proper instruction on a daisy chain is best done in person- photos/diagrams/or even videos can be confusing. truth is, you'd be best served by shelving your new purchase until you take up aid climbing. if you really want something thats adjustable (the claim of a daisy chain) instead of runners, get a Sterling Chain Reactor- it has multiple pockets like a daisy, but each pocket is full strength (unlike a daisy, where the pockets are rated to body weight only).
|
|
|
|
|
microbarn
Feb 10, 2008, 7:47 PM
Post #3 of 55
(7992 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 12, 2004
Posts: 5920
|
I agree with above. To properly use a daisy chain follow the following steps: 1. throw daisy chain into the back of the storage closet never to see the light of day until you're aiding 2. continue using standard length slings.
|
|
|
|
|
JackAttack
Feb 10, 2008, 7:50 PM
Post #4 of 55
(7986 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 24, 2007
Posts: 55
|
vegastradguy wrote: daisy chains are not quicker or easier than a pair of runners. they also have alot of potential to be used in a dangerous way (as you've discovered). proper instruction on a daisy chain is best done in person- photos/diagrams/or even videos can be confusing. truth is, you'd be best served by shelving your new purchase until you take up aid climbing. if you really want something thats adjustable (the claim of a daisy chain) instead of runners, get a Sterling Chain Reactor- it has multiple pockets like a daisy, but each pocket is full strength (unlike a daisy, where the pockets are rated to body weight only). also you can try a metolius PAS (Personal Anchor System). Pretty much the same idea as a sterlling chain reactor, daisy chain with full strength loops
|
|
|
|
|
phillygoat
Feb 10, 2008, 8:01 PM
Post #5 of 55
(7977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 22, 2004
Posts: 428
|
vegastradguy wrote: if you really want something thats adjustable (the claim of a daisy chain) instead of runners, get a Sterling Chain Reactor- it has multiple pockets like a daisy, but each pocket is full strength (unlike a daisy, where the pockets are rated to body weight only). The Metolius PAS is similar to the Sterling Chain Reactor and, IMO, much easier to come by. Out of curiosity I looked up the Chain Reactor on Sterling's site, but was unable to find info on where to get one, as they don't sell products online. The links didn't offer it either. While it might be the superior product, VTG, they should make it easier to purchase.
|
|
|
|
|
AeroXan
Feb 10, 2008, 8:08 PM
Post #6 of 55
(7976 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 25, 2007
Posts: 87
|
the problem with regular daisy chains is that the loops are only rated for body weight so they are rather delicate. also, if you clip the biner through both the end loop and a weak loop thinking that you are backing up the weak loop with full strength, you can break the bar tacks and be clipped into nothing. daisy chains are designed for aiding and it seems dangerous to use it for an anchor. the full strength end to end use should be fine but if you don't even use the loops, you might as well save money/weight and use a sling. or if you really do want an adjustable full strength daisy, go with a chain reactor or p.a.s. none of these products are designed to be fallen on (except the chain reactor but that'll probably hurt alot). if you understand and respect your gear's limitations, you should be ok. in regards to using a daisy for cleaning up anchors, I think there are better safer options. your rope is your best tether except for when setting up rappel. I've heard of one idea which i think is good for daisies. using a short length of dynamic rope tied to harness and a biner. it can be adjusted by using a clove hitch. dynamic rope is super strong and can absorb the impact of a fall. I've found one site (evosport.com.au) that sells beal gym rope by the meter. unfortunately i've never found anywhere else that sells such short lengths of dynamic rope. I've found the chain reactor at one site (gearexpress.biz). I've heard any place that sells sterling products can order a chain reactor for you too. I've never seen it in stores either but then p.a.s. is sold in abundance.
(This post was edited by AeroXan on Feb 10, 2008, 8:13 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
petsfed
Feb 10, 2008, 8:30 PM
Post #7 of 55
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 8599
|
vegastradguy wrote: daisy chains are not quicker or easier than a pair of runners. they also have alot of potential to be used in a dangerous way (as you've discovered). proper instruction on a daisy chain is best done in person- photos/diagrams/or even videos can be confusing. truth is, you'd be best served by shelving your new purchase until you take up aid climbing. if you really want something thats adjustable (the claim of a daisy chain) instead of runners, get a Sterling Chain Reactor- it has multiple pockets like a daisy, but each pocket is full strength (unlike a daisy, where the pockets are rated to body weight only). What he said. Don't get me wrong, I still use a daisy chain while sport climbing (and its useful during rappels, but a backup sling is always in place), but when it comes time to untie the rope and thread the chains, I'm clipped in with a proper quickdraw. They really only shine during aid climbing and unless you're continuously conscious of their limitations, daisy chains can be dangerous.
|
|
|
|
|
binrat
Feb 10, 2008, 9:20 PM
Post #8 of 55
(7932 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2006
Posts: 1155
|
microbarn wrote: I agree with above. To properly use a daisy chain follow the following steps: 1. throw daisy chain into the back of the storage closet never to see the light of day until you're aiding 2. continue using standard length slings. 3. use said daisy chain to hang your gear from while in storage closet. just my $.02 Binrat
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Feb 10, 2008, 9:47 PM
Post #9 of 55
(7917 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
phillygoat wrote: vegastradguy wrote: if you really want something thats adjustable (the claim of a daisy chain) instead of runners, get a Sterling Chain Reactor- it has multiple pockets like a daisy, but each pocket is full strength (unlike a daisy, where the pockets are rated to body weight only). The Metolius PAS is similar to the Sterling Chain Reactor and, IMO, much easier to come by. Out of curiosity I looked up the Chain Reactor on Sterling's site, but was unable to find info on where to get one, as they don't sell products online. The links didn't offer it either. While it might be the superior product, VTG, they should make it easier to purchase. as pointed out in other threads by folks smarter than me, the PAS has some liability as well due to the fact that it is constructed with Dyneema- so, while the PAS is easier to purchase, it doesnt necessarily make it the better option. keep an eye out for the Chain Reactor- I talked with Sterling recently, and you can expect to start to see it around- I know Rock and Snow carries it, and any gear shop that carries Sterling Ropes can order the Chain Reactor for you. I also can tell you that Sterling will build you a custom length Chain Reactor for not much more.
|
|
|
|
|
j_jones84
Feb 11, 2008, 4:37 AM
Post #10 of 55
(7849 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2008
Posts: 10
|
I am taking the daisy chain back to REI. I appreciate the candid answers and the advice. Just out of curiosity, what is it used for in aid climbing? Hauling gear? Not sure if I will get a PAS or just use runners... do the advantages make it worth it?
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Feb 11, 2008, 5:08 AM
Post #11 of 55
(7827 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
j_jones84 wrote: I am taking the daisy chain back to REI. I appreciate the candid answers and the advice. Just out of curiosity, what is it used for in aid climbing? Hauling gear? Not sure if I will get a PAS or just use runners... do the advantages make it worth it? When you return those daisy in REI buy 20 feet of 7 mm cord instead, I will show you how to make purcell prusic to use as an adjustable daisy. Much safer.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Feb 11, 2008, 5:09 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
j_jones84
Feb 11, 2008, 5:14 AM
Post #12 of 55
(7823 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2008
Posts: 10
|
I will do that and will appreciate the help, going back to REI next weekend (it's out of town sadly) I bought the 6mm cause I've read in several sources that 6mm and 7mm are the common sizes for accessory cords. I'm guessing you'd rather just go with the stronger of the two options?
|
|
|
|
|
phugganut
Feb 11, 2008, 5:24 AM
Post #13 of 55
(7810 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 17, 2003
Posts: 648
|
j_jones84 wrote: I am taking the daisy chain back to REI. Why are you returning it? It is defective? Did the salesperson mis-represent the item to you? Gear shops can't sell the used equipment returned to them. Are you going to make REI eat the costs for your bad decision?
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Feb 11, 2008, 5:37 AM
Post #14 of 55
(7802 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
phugganut wrote: j_jones84 wrote: I am taking the daisy chain back to REI. Why are you returning it? It is defective? Did the salesperson mis-represent the item to you? Gear shops can't sell the used equipment returned to them. Are you going to make REI eat the costs for your bad decision? No REI should not eat the cost but cover the cost of expensive funeral instead edit to add: if REI hired the a knowledgeable climber/salesman, this dude would bought those daisies to start with . n00b buying a wrong item is minor problem while selling wrong item could end up killing the guy.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Feb 11, 2008, 5:43 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
microbarn
Feb 11, 2008, 6:20 AM
Post #15 of 55
(7783 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 12, 2004
Posts: 5920
|
j_jones84 wrote: I am taking the daisy chain back to REI. I appreciate the candid answers and the advice. Just out of curiosity, what is it used for in aid climbing? Hauling gear? Not sure if I will get a PAS or just use runners... do the advantages make it worth it? no, use runners...and I haven't found the purcell prusic to be worth the time either. runners work fine and they are one less thing to mess up. Why add to the confusion? Stick with what you know works and be critical of the advantages that other options offer.
|
|
|
|
|
kriso9tails
Feb 11, 2008, 8:59 AM
Post #16 of 55
(7753 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2001
Posts: 7772
|
majid_sabet wrote: phugganut wrote: j_jones84 wrote: I am taking the daisy chain back to REI. Why are you returning it? It is defective? Did the salesperson mis-represent the item to you? Gear shops can't sell the used equipment returned to them. Are you going to make REI eat the costs for your bad decision? No REI should not eat the cost but cover the cost of expensive funeral instead edit to add: if REI hired the a knowledgeable climber/salesman, this dude would bought those daisies to start with . n00b buying a wrong item is minor problem while selling wrong item could end up killing the guy. I know when I walk in to an REI, the first thing I say to the staff in the climbing department is, "Mommy, mommy, can I buy this?"
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Feb 11, 2008, 3:38 PM
Post #17 of 55
(7699 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
j_jones84 wrote: I am taking the daisy chain back to REI. I appreciate the candid answers and the advice. Just out of curiosity, what is it used for in aid climbing? Hauling gear? Not sure if I will get a PAS or just use runners... do the advantages make it worth it? daisies are used in conjunction with a fifi hook to hang on as you progress up the wall. basically, you set your piece, test it with your foot on your ladder, then ascend your ladder(s), then fifi into the daisy when you get high enough. (there's alot more to aid, but thats the basic gist of it). i dont think the PAS is worth anything, really. the only advantage is its adjustability. if you're rappelling, you should only be at the anchor for a couple of minutes anyway, so comfort isnt too much of an issue. if you're climbing a multipitch route, you should be using the rope to secure yourself- which is stronger and infinitely more adjustable than a PAS!
|
|
|
|
|
climbingaggie03
Feb 11, 2008, 4:06 PM
Post #18 of 55
(7678 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: 1173
|
So I don't use a daisy chain any more, but I don't climb sport much any more either, so go figure, but there is a way to use a daisy that is reasonably safe and easy. The way I used to do it was I would have a locker on the end of my daisy. When I reached the anchors, I'd unclip the locker from my harness, clip it to a bolt and lock it. I now had a full strength connection to one bolt, but it was too long. So, I would take another carabiner (a locker is best) clip it to the first locker, and then clip the appropriate loop on my daisy chain to the second biner and lock it. So now I have the right length connection to one bolt as well. Then I would take quick draws or a runner and back up my daisy with the other bolt. I think this method is recommended somewhere on the internet or in bd's literature. The biggest pain is clipping both biners to your harness, but it's adjustable, it always has a full strength connection to the bolt, and you're not likely to clip it wrong if you use 2 biners. let the flames begin
|
|
|
|
|
rgold
Feb 11, 2008, 6:59 PM
Post #19 of 55
(7600 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2002
Posts: 1804
|
I seem to be in the minority here, but I think there is a use for daisy's for multipitch routes. Although one can use any type of daisy, the biggest safety margin comes from using the Sterling Chain Reactor. The basic use of the daisy is to speed things up. As soon as the leader gets in a solid anchor piece, it is clipped with the daisy and the leader calls off belay. While the leader is building the rest of the anchor, the second, clipped to the best single piece of their anchor with their daisy, is cleaning everything else, getting the pack on, etc. The second doesn't have to sit there belaying while the leader places every piece of the next anchor and ties them together. The second doesn't even have to desperately pump out slack to the leader when the leader needs to tie the rope to the anchor. Note that the connection between climber and anchor, once it is built, should be a rope connection. Do not use the daisy for this. (I keep it clipped, but with some slack, to that I can immediately start breaking down the anchor once the leader is off belay.) On routes that require the leader to build anchors, this process saves quite a bit of time. If the anchors are bolts, the time savings are much less, probably insignificant. Having a daisy ready to go on your harness has another advantage or two. One is if the second has to clean a stuck piece and needs both hands. It is usually best, with today's stretchy ropes, to hang from a higher piece (often placed by the second). Having a daisy installed makes this quicker and simpler. The second advantage occurs if, either because of a medical emergency or because of bad weather, the party has to use aid. Of course, in many situations, girth-hitched runners are fine, at least if the person who needs them has them. But I've found that when working in exposed but easy places, I'm much less likely to skip anchoring if I have an installed daisy that I can just reach over and clip in with. And it isn't just me, my friends who use runners do without anchors more than I do when I have a daisy on. Finally, if you are a fan of self-rescue scenarios, you will recognize that having an installed daisy makes certain procedures easier, especially if you are not in the habit of always having an appropriate number of runners on you at all times.
|
|
|
|
|
trenchdigger
Feb 11, 2008, 7:39 PM
Post #20 of 55
(7571 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 9, 2003
Posts: 1447
|
majid_sabet wrote: j_jones84 wrote: I am taking the daisy chain back to REI. I appreciate the candid answers and the advice. Just out of curiosity, what is it used for in aid climbing? Hauling gear? Not sure if I will get a PAS or just use runners... do the advantages make it worth it? When you return those daisy in REI buy 20 feet of 7 mm cord instead, I will show you how to make purcell prusic to use as an adjustable daisy. Much safer. What he said... I agree that the purcell prusic is the best/safest tool for the purpose.
|
|
|
|
|
rgold
Feb 11, 2008, 8:09 PM
Post #21 of 55
(7545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2002
Posts: 1804
|
I know of no tests that indicate a purcell prussik tether is any safer than a Sterling Chain Reactor. And the Chain Reactor offers more and better adjustability, since the Purcell prussik rig can only adjust from full length to half its length. In certain applications (for example the second cleaning gear) the Chain Reactor or other daisy is far more convenient, because you can't simultaneously pull on a purcell prussik tether and adjust it. I've used 'em both fairly extensively and think that for most climbing applications the Chain Recator is better.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
trenchdigger
Feb 11, 2008, 9:34 PM
Post #23 of 55
(7490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 9, 2003
Posts: 1447
|
rgold wrote: I know of no tests that indicate a purcell prussik tether is any safer than a Sterling Chain Reactor. And the Chain Reactor offers more and better adjustability, since the Purcell prussik rig can only adjust from full length to half its length. In certain applications (for example the second cleaning gear) the Chain Reactor or other daisy is far more convenient, because you can't simultaneously pull on a purcell prussik tether and adjust it. I've used 'em both fairly extensively and think that for most climbing applications the Chain Recator is better. I think we're probably the realm of the "Beginners" forum, but some contest that the purcell will slip and act as a load limiter in the system. Some related info in a canyoneering forum here: http://www.canyoneering.net/...php?t=700&page=6 Some tests indicate that there is some shock absorbtion effect while others do not. I'm sure much of this is dependent on material used and method of tying the purcell. I tie mine with a typical 3/2 wrap prusik and Sterling 7mm cord which seems to grab just enough, but not lock up to the point where it's difficult to adjust. While the chain reactor may withstand 3 factor 2 falls, you may not. My hope is that if I am ever subject to such a fall, my purcell will help reduce the impact force and damage to my body.
(This post was edited by trenchdigger on Feb 11, 2008, 9:35 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
binrat
Feb 11, 2008, 10:08 PM
Post #24 of 55
(7461 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2006
Posts: 1155
|
I agree with trenchdigger, but would like to say that the purcell prussik is not really for the beginner. For the beginner the best is simply 2 slings girth hitched into the harness. Binrat
|
|
|
|
|
rgold
Feb 12, 2008, 12:53 AM
Post #25 of 55
(7380 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2002
Posts: 1804
|
Trench, thanks for the link. Based on the numbers there, I'd guess that the the purcell tether would also show considerably lower impact forces than the Chain Reactor. It isn't entirely clear what the role of the prussik slipping is, or how dangerous such slippage might be. For rescue positioning, the purcell prussik has been accepted for some time, I think, and it is gaining favor as a rappel tether with cavers. My sense for multipitch trad climbing is still that the purcell's lack of adjusting range and the difficulty in adjusting when weighted or partially weighted make it alot less preferable than the Chain Reactor. The superiority of the purcell in fall-arresting is desirable, but, after a year of testing, I found that it doesn't function well enough for me in a climbing context.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|