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tolman_paul


Feb 11, 2008, 12:24 PM
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Efficiency
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The quickdraw vs runner thread got me thinking about efficiency, and what ways you've found to make you more efficient with the use of gear.

Personally I hate fumbling with gear and am always looking for ways to ease racking, placing and anchoring.

One thing I did that really speeded up my gear placement was to get a second set of wired stoppers and to put 3 on a runner. I'll grab a runner and have say a 3, 5 and 7 stopper or a 4, 6 or 8. Odds are good one of the stoppers will fit the crack, and I'm not fidding with an entire selection of stoppers on a biner with the risk I'm pumped and drop it. So long as the route isn't so sustained I'll need additional stoppers higher on the route, I just leave the two extra wires dangling. The added weight helps keep the stopper you placed form walking.

On larger cracks you have more solid olds so can hang out to fiddle with the larger stoppers or hexes. If it's a really tough section I just plug a tcu or friend.

I like to double loop runners instead of using quickdraws. If the route is straight they are left doubled, if it zig zags I unclip one loop from the rope end biner and extend the loop.


blueeyedclimber


Feb 11, 2008, 3:41 PM
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Re: [tolman_paul] Efficiency [In reply to]
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tolman_paul wrote:
One thing I did that really speeded up my gear placement was to get a second set of wired stoppers and to put 3 on a runner. I'll grab a runner and have say a 3, 5 and 7 stopper or a 4, 6 or 8. Odds are good one of the stoppers will fit the crack, and I'm not fidding with an entire selection of stoppers on a biner with the risk I'm pumped and drop it. So long as the route isn't so sustained I'll need additional stoppers higher on the route, I just leave the two extra wires dangling. The added weight helps keep the stopper you placed form walking.

That's a waste of gear. If you want to be more efficient, then you just need to learn your gear better. That comes with practice. I can't see any extra advantage to your way.


Reaganchung


Feb 11, 2008, 4:01 PM
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Re: [tolman_paul] Efficiency [In reply to]
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hmm. that doesnt sound efficient at all. learn to read the crack and know what size nut you need before you grab one.


tolman_paul


Feb 11, 2008, 4:16 PM
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Re: [Reaganchung] Efficiency [In reply to]
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So do you have single nuts on a qd and always grab the right one off the bat, or do you pull up a set of wires, fiddle one in, then unclip it from a biner, put the wires back on your rack, then unlclip a runner from your rack and clip it on the wire?

Unless I'm on a route that has a sustained thin crack, I find 1/2 dozen wire placements are sufficient. Yes I'm carrying some extra weight in wires, but I don't have extra runners with single wires on them, and I'm not spending as much time clipping and unclipping gear.

Try it, you might find it's more efficient then you think.


Tree_wrangler


Feb 11, 2008, 4:31 PM
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Re: [tolman_paul] Efficiency [In reply to]
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In reply to:
or do you pull up a set of wires, fiddle one in, then unclip it from a biner, put the wires back on your rack, then unlclip a runner from your rack and clip it on the wire?

Yes. Or, if possible, I unclip the right one by sight and then set it.

If, before I begin, it's obvious that I won't need any of the larger sizes or smaller sizes, I'll drop those sizes before I even begin.


the_climber


Feb 11, 2008, 4:31 PM
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Re: [tolman_paul] Efficiency [In reply to]
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What the other guys are saying is learn to read the crack better, and learn your gear better. That is, learn to eyeball the size of the crack up and learn to know what piece will work in there. You don't need to "fiddle" with anything that way.

If you know your rack and can read the placement you will very rarely need to fiddle with anything, rather you will simply grab your nuts, place the piece and continue the upward progress. Laugh

Yes, you can twist that statement if you want.

Look, just get out there and climb, learn your rack and how to read the stone... with a little practice you'll only ever need to "fiddle" with gear on a rare occasion, a difficult aid pitch.


dudemanbu


Feb 11, 2008, 5:27 PM
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Re: [tolman_paul] Efficiency [In reply to]
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I usually know what i'm going to place well below where i actually place it...

I've found that the biggest thing that's helped me increase my efficiency is climbing quickly between rests, and doubling up at rests.

If the fall is clean, then it makes sense to just double up at a good rest and climb until you get to another.. unless the nature of the climb dictates otherwise.


blueeyedclimber


Feb 11, 2008, 6:10 PM
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Re: [tolman_paul] Efficiency [In reply to]
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So let me get this straight. You are carrying twice as much gear, leaving some behind on every placement and you think this is more efficient? Am I missing something? Am I on Candid Camera?


up_up_up


Feb 11, 2008, 6:37 PM
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Re: [tolman_paul] Efficiency [In reply to]
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They make a god point.. learn the rock.

one thing i can do that makes me much more efficient is to place where it is easy and climb where it is hard. If I see a place where I can just plug something in and move then it beats getting 10 feet up and messing around for a placement that i'm stuggling on. You inevitably waste 5 minutes placing something and make a bad placement or have to down climb or climb through past your comfort zone. All of which are not required.

That is all part of reading the rock. If you can tell a difficult or a place where you cant throw something in is coming up you place before it.

Another aspect of climbing that can make you more efficient and waste less or your time is at the anchor. A majority of time is lost here. Setting up a good anchor shoudlnt be as complicated as some make it out to be. Place three pieces, and equalize them with a cordilet or something. I even use my rope to equalized them and then make a Master Point if my second is going to be climbing up and past me leap frogging the climb. it can be real easy to tear down too. One a multipitch climb with some practice you can save thrity minutes or more which can get you back to the car before dusk or give you more time to climb.. enjoy

Hope that helps!


Partner epoch
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Feb 11, 2008, 6:40 PM
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Re: [up_up_up] Efficiency [In reply to]
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Sport climbing is efficient...


climbingaggie03


Feb 11, 2008, 7:41 PM
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Re: [dudemanbu] Efficiency [In reply to]
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What do you mean double up? place two pieces? or rest twice as long?


dudemanbu


Feb 11, 2008, 8:30 PM
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place two pieces. I never like to have less than two pieces between me and the ground (or a ledge or similarly dangerous fall.) By placing two pieces at a rest stance, i assure myself a bit of redundancy in case the climbing or gear gets spicy higher up. In addition, by being willing to run it out a bit farther with that extra confidence, I decrease the chance that i'm going to try to place gear at a difficult stance, while pumped out of fear.

Get where i'm going?


climbingaggie03


Feb 11, 2008, 8:40 PM
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Re: [dudemanbu] Efficiency [In reply to]
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I guess I see where you're going. I aggree about having 2 pieces between you and the ground/ledge. For a while I doubled up on placements too, and there is a time and a place for placing two.

Now however, my strategy is to place bomber pieces all the time, and place them when I need them. Sometimes if the gear is a bit dicey, or the crux is particularly challenging, I'll place two, but I think placing 2 pieces every time you place a piece is a little unnecessary, and that it's safer to spread it out a little more.


potreroed


Feb 11, 2008, 8:55 PM
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Re: [climbingaggie03] Efficiency [In reply to]
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Come to the Potrero Chico where you can climb thousands of glorious feet every day with a dozen quickdraws. Your only concern will be how to make the belays and rappels more efficient!!!


climbingaggie03


Feb 11, 2008, 10:25 PM
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Re: [potreroed] Efficiency [In reply to]
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Ed, it's not for lack of trying that's kept me from potrero, i've had no less than 4 trips to potrero fall though, and I used to live less than 12 hours drive from potrero. Some day....


norushnomore


Feb 12, 2008, 3:10 AM
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Re: [tolman_paul] Efficiency [In reply to]
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tolman_paul wrote:
On larger cracks you have more solid olds so can hang out to fiddle with the larger stoppers or hexes. If it's a really tough section I just plug a tcu or friend.

What about Camalots? Have you tried plugging them? There is a good chance you will stop fiddling with the rest of the above


dudemanbu


Feb 12, 2008, 3:28 AM
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Re: [climbingaggie03] Efficiency [In reply to]
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I guess you've never had a piece that you thought was bomber rip because of bad luck, or a surprising lack of rock integrity. I've seen good sized cams slide right out of perfectly parallel cracks of excellent basalt, for no reason other than they must have felt like it.


climbingaggie03 wrote:
I guess I see where you're going. I aggree about having 2 pieces between you and the ground/ledge. For a while I doubled up on placements too, and there is a time and a place for placing two.

Now however, my strategy is to place bomber pieces all the time, and place them when I need them. Sometimes if the gear is a bit dicey, or the crux is particularly challenging, I'll place two, but I think placing 2 pieces every time you place a piece is a little unnecessary, and that it's safer to spread it out a little more.


granite_grrl


Feb 12, 2008, 4:28 AM
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Re: [dudemanbu] Efficiency [In reply to]
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dudemanbu wrote:
I guess you've never had a piece that you thought was bomber rip because of bad luck, or a surprising lack of rock integrity. I've seen good sized cams slide right out of perfectly parallel cracks of excellent basalt, for no reason other than they must have felt like it.


climbingaggie03 wrote:
I guess I see where you're going. I aggree about having 2 pieces between you and the ground/ledge. For a while I doubled up on placements too, and there is a time and a place for placing two.

Now however, my strategy is to place bomber pieces all the time, and place them when I need them. Sometimes if the gear is a bit dicey, or the crux is particularly challenging, I'll place two, but I think placing 2 pieces every time you place a piece is a little unnecessary, and that it's safer to spread it out a little more.

A good rule of thumb is to keep at least two pieces of gear between you and the ground/ledge if possible. Normally when I get to a good rest stance I've already placed several pieces below me. If one or more of those peices will keep me off the ground why would I need to double up?

But hell, if you like to build your self an anchor at every rest stance who am I to stop you.

BTW - please say your cams only slip out when you're falling on them. If they pop randomly perhaps you should learn about extending stuff a little better.


climbingaggie03


Feb 12, 2008, 4:29 AM
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Re: [dudemanbu] Efficiency [In reply to]
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I have had that happen, but I learned why they popped and how better to determine rock integrity so that I don't have that problem any more, although that is why I used to double up as well.


blueeyedclimber


Feb 12, 2008, 6:55 AM
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Re: [climbingaggie03] Efficiency [In reply to]
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climbingaggie03 wrote:
I guess I see where you're going. I aggree about having 2 pieces between you and the ground/ledge. For a while I doubled up on placements too, and there is a time and a place for placing two.

Now however, my strategy is to place bomber pieces all the time, and place them when I need them. Sometimes if the gear is a bit dicey, or the crux is particularly challenging, I'll place two, but I think placing 2 pieces every time you place a piece is a little unnecessary, and that it's safer to spread it out a little more.

No, this is not what he is saying. HE is saying that he has 2 sets of nuts. He racks 3 nuts per quickdraw. He grabs one set of 3 (nuts, draw) and places one (in the hopes that one of them fits). He then leaves the entire set including the 2 that were not placed (which are left dangling from the one that did fit). He then clips the rope to the draw, leaving the 2 nuts behind and proceeds to climb. His second must love climbing with him.

Josh


(This post was edited by blueeyedclimber on Feb 12, 2008, 6:55 AM)


gothcopter


Feb 12, 2008, 7:25 AM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Efficiency [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
So let me get this straight. You are carrying twice as much gear, leaving some behind on every placement and you think this is more efficient? Am I missing something? Am I on Candid Camera?

I think his point is that his method employs greater efficiency of movement, not weight. Once he has placed his nut, his draw is already hanging from it, so he can skip the extra step of getting a draw and hanging it from the nut. Similarly, once the nut is cleaned by the second, there is no need to remove it from the draw to return it to its "default state".

I could see how his method could be an advantage if you were climbing a route that required placing stoppers from difficult stances. It would be interesting to try. I suspect the first time I got to a spot where the stopper I wanted was hanging 40ft. below me, that would probably be the end of that.


dingus


Feb 12, 2008, 7:41 AM
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Re: [tolman_paul] Efficiency [In reply to]
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tolman_paul wrote:
One thing I did that really speeded up my gear placement was to get a second set of wired stoppers and to put 3 on a runner. I'll grab a runner and have say a 3, 5 and 7 stopper or a 4, 6 or 8. Odds are good one of the stoppers will fit the crack, and I'm not fidding with an entire selection of stoppers on a biner with the risk I'm pumped and drop it.

As others pointed out you have achieved greater speed at the cost of weight and nut distribution. And you haven't addressed the underlying cause of your 'fumbling.'

Consider efficient nutcraft:

1. Avoid fumbling by taking only those nuts you will need. If there are no thin cracks, for example, on your intended route, leave the small nuts in the pack. PARE IT DOWN, take only what you need. On many climbs I take no more than 4 or 5 nuts, TOTAL. Having 2 full sets of nuts is NOT efficient, unless you need to place them all.
2. LEARN THE SIZES! How? Memorize body parts. If you can just get your index finger to the 2nd knuckle in a given placement opportunity, you should know exactly what nut that equates to on your rack. Ditto thumb, hand, 2-finger stack, 3-finger stach, tip of your pinkie, tip of your index, 1st and 2nd knuckles, etc. You should be able to reach around a blind corner, stick your finger in a crack and have a reasonably accurate idea of the specific nut you will need.
3. In many situations (area dependant) a cam is more efficient than a nut. Put the cam in and GO. Save the nut for later man!
4. "You don't go to war with the army you want, you go to war with the army you have." Ah Rummy! he was so friggin wrong it wasn't even funny. But this philosophy gets in the way of trad climbers too. It goes like this.... "You don't place the nut in the constriction you want, you place the nut in the constriction you have." If Rummy were a climber HE'D STILL be dicking around with that placement! Learn to place nuts in ideal situations and fire in the cams when things are stressful. I climbed with a nutcraft master for many years. It took me a long time to realize that his pared down rack of a single set of Friends and typically 5 nuts, was one expression of refined efficiency. When placing nuts he would climb past many a marginal placement, and then drop the nut in a bomber slot, clip 1-2-3.

Fucking around with nuts is the noob and intermediate lead climber's 3rd biggest time sink (rigging the belay is number 2 and general fucking around ham sammiching is #1).

If you equate climbing speed to efficiency you can gain huge increases by leaving half your rack in the car.

DMT


(This post was edited by dingus on Feb 12, 2008, 7:44 AM)


blueeyedclimber


Feb 12, 2008, 9:42 AM
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Well said dingus. Just to emphasize a point. The time wasting in nut placement is NOT reaching for a draw after you placed it. It is in placing the nut itself, aka "fumbling". So to be truly efficient in placing gear, in this case nuts, you need to do what dingus said and learn, not only . what fits where, but when to place what. Refining you climbing, gear placement, and your judgement are how to become efficient. Keeping in mind these 3 things, you adjust your rack accordingly to round out how efficient you will be.

Josh


tolman_paul


Feb 12, 2008, 10:17 AM
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Re: [gothcopter] Efficiency [In reply to]
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gothcopter wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
So let me get this straight. You are carrying twice as much gear, leaving some behind on every placement and you think this is more efficient? Am I missing something? Am I on Candid Camera?

I think his point is that his method employs greater efficiency of movement, not weight. Once he has placed his nut, his draw is already hanging from it, so he can skip the extra step of getting a draw and hanging it from the nut. Similarly, once the nut is cleaned by the second, there is no need to remove it from the draw to return it to its "default state".

I could see how his method could be an advantage if you were climbing a route that required placing stoppers from difficult stances. It would be interesting to try. I suspect the first time I got to a spot where the stopper I wanted was hanging 40ft. below me, that would probably be the end of that.

Somebody understood me Cool

Yes it is carrying a bit of extra weight, but there is a speed benefit. I grab a runner and 80% of the time it'll have a nut of the size I need, it gets placed, the rope pulled up and clipped, and off I go. An extra set of nuts isn't that heavy, and on multipitch routes if you have to bail and leave gear, you have some extra gear to leave.

On a multipitch route I'll typically carry the two sets of nuts, though I typically don't carry the 1's or 2's and don't double the larger sizes, a set of tcu's, camalots 1, 2, 3, a couple of 1 1/2 friends and some smaller hexes, and a few tri-cams. Then about a dozen runners and slings for belay anchors.

Unless I've done a route before, I don't know exactly what stopper or other piece of gear will go into what part of the route.

Most efficient would be to carry exactly the pieces you need with appropriate runners or draws racked in order of use. But there are few routes I've done enough to be able to pull that off, and I enjoy climbing as many new routes as possible.

Can't wait to give this stone a go this summer Sly


dudemanbu


Feb 12, 2008, 3:08 PM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Efficiency [In reply to]
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It was definitely implied that there is a fall needed to remove a cam from a crack. Give me a little more credit than that.

granite_grrl wrote:
dudemanbu wrote:
I guess you've never had a piece that you thought was bomber rip because of bad luck, or a surprising lack of rock integrity. I've seen good sized cams slide right out of perfectly parallel cracks of excellent basalt, for no reason other than they must have felt like it.


climbingaggie03 wrote:
I guess I see where you're going. I aggree about having 2 pieces between you and the ground/ledge. For a while I doubled up on placements too, and there is a time and a place for placing two.

Now however, my strategy is to place bomber pieces all the time, and place them when I need them. Sometimes if the gear is a bit dicey, or the crux is particularly challenging, I'll place two, but I think placing 2 pieces every time you place a piece is a little unnecessary, and that it's safer to spread it out a little more.

A good rule of thumb is to keep at least two pieces of gear between you and the ground/ledge if possible. Normally when I get to a good rest stance I've already placed several pieces below me. If one or more of those peices will keep me off the ground why would I need to double up?

But hell, if you like to build your self an anchor at every rest stance who am I to stop you.

BTW - please say your cams only slip out when you're falling on them. If they pop randomly perhaps you should learn about extending stuff a little better.

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