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Ksaw
Feb 12, 2008, 8:51 PM
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Hey all, I'm in the process of trying to hammer out my climbing and weight lifting days and intensities and was wondering if this set up would be a good one, it is kind of what I'm doing right now.
Tuesday: Gym climb focused on technique and ending with traversing till I can't anymore
Wednesday: Triceps in the weight gym
Thursday: Climbing in the Gym focused on technique then traversing till I can't anymore
Friday: Chest in the weight gym
Saturday: Climbing outdoors if I can, if not not Bicep, Back and Shoulders workout.
Sunday and Monday are running days.
Will doing a hard bicep back and shoulders workout on Saturday be too much after climbing on Tuesday and Thursday? Is training this much going to be over-doing it? I've been weight lifting for a while so I'm not new to it and my muscles are used to being hit hard.
I just don't want to over do it and get injured. Thanks in advance for the help.
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angry
Feb 12, 2008, 9:05 PM
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jt512 to thread jt512 to thread!!!!
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robdotcalm
Feb 12, 2008, 9:14 PM
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Just out of curiosity, how do you spend a whole workout day on triceps? That seems weird. In fact, unless you're a competitive power lifter, how or why do you spend a whole day on chest?
r.c
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shimanilami
Feb 12, 2008, 9:17 PM
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angry wrote: jt512 to thread jt512 to thread!!!!
There's a new kid in town, Angry, and her name is Aerili.
Anyone want to wager on who weighs in first?
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Ksaw
Feb 12, 2008, 9:22 PM
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It's actually very common practice in lifting to lift a single muscle group in a day. Some lift 5 days a week and work only 1 muscle most days. It allows complete focus on the group and the ability to train it harder than if you spent some of your energy on other groups.
Many will do 2 groups a day 3 days a week or so.
Triceps done real hard can take a good bit of time to do as well.
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lofstromc
Feb 12, 2008, 9:27 PM
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I think one of your climbing gym days should be spent climbing easier routes over and over again. 10 times non-stop. Rest 15 minutes and then do 10 more routes non-stop. Repeat.
Whatever grade you start on should be below your limit. The goal for this type of training is endurance.
This is a slow process, you won't see changes in a week or two, you'll need to give it a few months.
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gt29905
Feb 12, 2008, 9:27 PM
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robdotcalm wrote: Just out of curiosity, how do you spend a whole workout day on triceps? That seems weird. In fact, unless you're a competitive power lifter, how or why do you spend a whole day on chest? r.c
I also do that. Three exercises for a major muscle group in a "day." Plus three more exercises for a minor muscle group. It works well for me.
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angry
Feb 12, 2008, 9:28 PM
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shimanilami wrote: angry wrote: jt512 to thread jt512 to thread!!!! There's a new kid in town, Angry, and her name is Aerili. Anyone want to wager on who weighs in first?
I thought of that. Or fluxus, or sidepull. Maybe even athletikspecifik. JT however is the most consistent of them. If he's on line, he'll be here.
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Ksaw
Feb 12, 2008, 9:34 PM
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That sounds like a good idea, that's called ARC training right (I try to do my research) That's similar to what I was trying to accomplish with the traversing.
When I started, it was all bouldering, and my endurance is pretty horrendous because of it. This is part of what I'm trying to fix. Becuase I was/am completely self-taught my form is pretty bad to I'm beginning to understand, so that is a pretty big focus for me as well.
Is there some way to try and accomplish both goals at the same time or will I be better off focusing on each one on different days?
Thanks for the help
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Climbnkev
Feb 12, 2008, 9:35 PM
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So just guessing here, but I am assuming you are relatively new to climbing but have a strong background in weightlifting? I only say this because your routine sounds like the merging of a beginner climbing routine and an advanced bodybuilding routine.
Any way If you HAVE been bodybuilding for quite some time I am assuming you have quite a bit of muscle, that for climbing will act more as an anchor than a benefit. If you really want to improve in your climbing I would consider adjusting your priorities, and spend some more time working on climbing.
A good friend of mine used to be a champion powerlifter and bodybuilder, now he is a climber. He hasn't lifted any weights in years but still is RIPPED and has biceps the size of my calves. WHen he was competing he was over 200 lbs, now he is around 160. He also climbs 5.12+ sport and trad. Point being that if you want to improve as a climber you may need to decide that working your muscles is not as important as learning technique and skill, and recovering. You will also find that climbing is a great workout for your pulling muscles.
So the following would be a routine that I think would be more beneficial to your climbing:
Monday - 30 min - 1 hour run - moderate intensity
Tuesday- Bouldering - focusing on technique and NOT going to failure. Light chest/tricep/ab workout after.
Wednesday-Climbing on a rope, focusing on technique, climbing below your limit, finish with 20-30 min easy traversing trying NOT to get pumped.
Thursday- 30 min - 1 hour run - moderate intensity
Friday- repeat Tuesday.
Saturday - climb outside or repeat wednesday.
Sunday- Climb Outside or repeat wednesday.
I can guarantee that you will see much greater gains in your climbing from this routine than you will from the one you listed. The key variable is not to over do it and really listen to your body. You are probably used to thrashing yourself in the gym, and that is counter-productive to learning movement based skills. Good Luck!
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shimanilami
Feb 12, 2008, 9:36 PM
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angry wrote: shimanilami wrote: angry wrote: jt512 to thread jt512 to thread!!!! There's a new kid in town, Angry, and her name is Aerili. Anyone want to wager on who weighs in first? I thought of that. Or fluxus, or sidepull. Maybe even athletikspecifik. JT however is the most consistent of them. If he's on line, he'll be here.
True. But Aerili is way hotter so she gets my vote.
Then again, with only 8 posts, Ksaw probably hasn't been shat on by JT yet, and that would be a good experience for him ... and entertaining for us, also.
Fluxus and sidepull provide serious and useful advice. But I'm at work so I've got no time for such things.
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playouts1de
Feb 12, 2008, 9:40 PM
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Not sure if that was a bump up there, BUT here is what I woiuld be concerned about.
You are stressing your tendons for multiple days in a row and not getting very much recovery. I have tendonitis in my left elbow, so I would really try to avoid that. I would also spread the running out as well, depending on what kind of running you are doing. More and more research is showing that having rest days in between running workouts helps recovery and doesnt affect race times. The study I am referring to was conducted on sub 10 mile per week runners, not elites.
In How to 5.12 Horst recomends doing all of your upperbody on climbing days. I find that in doing that I cant lift as hard, but the burn is a lot deeper.
My work out is:
M-running (tempo)
T-climbing/upperbody (dips/pullup avriants/pushups/wrists )
W-running (threshold/intervals), core
Th-climbing/upperbody (dips/pullup avriants/pushups/wrists )
F-Running (recovery)
S-climb outside/LONG slow run
Sun-everything rests
Some weeks I keep everything easy focusing on technique, others I really push hard climbs at or above redpoint.
Hope that helps
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Ksaw
Feb 12, 2008, 9:54 PM
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Thanks guys, alot of great info here.
I should have given more background. I have a great deal of experience weight lifting and when I first started climbing, I completely gave it up so that I could climb more, however I quickly learned that I needed to work out my opposing muscle groups.
I'm trying to focus on technique, especially footwork, but endurance is something I am lacking as well. So both are about as important as the other to me right now.
I tried climbing Tuesday Wednesday Thursday and quickly recieved a painful smack of light tendonitis onsetting so I cut that off pretty qucikly, which is why I was attempting to put pushing muscle workouts in between the pulling climbing days. That's also why I don't have an puling workouts except maybe on Saturday if I can't climb.
I really do want to improve my climbing, and plan on working on it, but I don't have any dillusions of eliteness oozing from my every pore, so that might come into effect.
Again thanks for all the help, it makes a huge difference in having some experienced input when you're trying to teach yourself and just have no idea.
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aerili
Feb 12, 2008, 10:09 PM
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shimani, I truly appreciate your compliment. But then again, I would be worried if I could not beat jt in a hotness contest when other men are the judges. 
This is my quick, currently-bored-at-work reply which does not even entirely answer his question:
Spending an entire day on tri's or chest is foolish, man. Even if you're a bodybuilder for god's sake.
As usual, I also recommend some lower body lifting, esp. if you are running. Yes, it is possible to lift for your legs and ass and not get huge, so please, do not start in with that old drivel.
(This post was edited by aerili on Feb 12, 2008, 10:12 PM)
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shimanilami
Feb 12, 2008, 10:14 PM
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Thank you, Aerili.
I win, Angry. So you owe me a beer or something. (I'll split it with you, Aerili.)
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aerili
Feb 12, 2008, 10:17 PM
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Are you the one on the right? ;-D
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angry
Feb 12, 2008, 10:21 PM
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Dammit, Jay must have gone climbing or to a cockfight or something.
Have an imaginary beer on me, no have a case. Just don't imaginary drive.
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shockabuku
Feb 12, 2008, 10:27 PM
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Climbnkev wrote: Monday - 30 min - 1 hour run - moderate intensity
I wish I could do a 1 hour run in 30 minutes. Most days it takes me close to 1.5 hours.
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charley
Feb 12, 2008, 11:05 PM
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Buy the book The Self Coached Climber. I have just started with it but I think it is going to help my technique alot. It has had many good things said here.
As far as balancing the lifting and climbing I'm working on that myself. What makes that a bit more challenging is that I am 60 and the cartilage in my knees is shot. Concentrating on climbing and just a wee bit of lifting after climbing days might work. I'm still experimenting with the legs too.
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Fenst
Feb 12, 2008, 11:16 PM
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I agree. I used to be a powerlifter in highschool. I was taught to exersise opposing muscle groups during a workout. If you are after strength and preventing injury try these opposing groups:
biceps/triceps
shoulders/chest
abs/back
If you do abs everyday then you can do chest/back and do shoulders by themselves. Climbing involves much more pulling than pressing/pushing. It is important to incorporate pressing/pushing movements into a climbing based workout plan. A good example the importance of working opposing mucsle groups is the abs. If you did abs all the time and no back work outs then you will develop a back injury or pain. Personally, I think climbing in general works out my back enough to omit back exersises in my weight training. I hope this helps.
Good luck!
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Ksaw
Feb 13, 2008, 12:58 AM
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Aerili,
Though I appreciate your response, whether or not I should work an entire day on chest or triceps was not the question, nor do I need advice in that area.
Training is nothing new to me. The combination of climbing and weight lifting is. If Tuesday/Thursday I train Back/Shoulders/Biceps through climbing, then the two additional training days must include my pushing groups triceps and chest.
Now, it is common knowledge that one should not train a muscle group sooner than 5 days rested if that muscle group was properly trained through isolation training by an experienced lifter, so working both on both days would not be appropriate.
So the only possible choice is training each individually one separate days to allow 5 days rest or work them only partially multiple days a week which will see no growth in my muscle because they are already too strong to even be maintained on a 2 times a week mini-workout.
Lower-body lifting is no longer a necessity for me, just trust me on that one. Though I can only help but wonder what you consider "lifting" for your legs, because anything other than high-rep low weight definition or endurance work, if done properly, would probably leave someone off the wall the next day climbing wise.
Some of the workout regiments given by others look pretty good and I guess I'm going to have to narrow my priorities to whether strength or technique is more important to me, or how to find a balance between them.
I did just purchase the self-coached climber (hopefully it's in my mailbox and I can grab it on the way to the gym and practice  ) so that should help my technique or I want my 25 bucks back.
For those of you who said you have been or are a weight lifter or bodybuilder, how did you maintain your strength while climbing and learning or focusing on technique?
Thanks again for all the really helpful answers!
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hopperhopper
Feb 13, 2008, 1:09 AM
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i think spending an entire day on one muscle is overkill and a waste of time. my recommendation is to combine your chest and tricep days because bench press works them both, so you can start with that and then do some cable crossovers or peck deck to supplement chest, and some skull crushers or cable pulls or something for the tri's.
another bad thing i see with your plan is no rest days. i think one a week is minimum, two is better. here's my suggested revision:
Sun - run
Mon - lift biceps/shoulders/whatever
Tue - gym climb
Wed - rest
Thr - gym climb
Fri - lift chest/tris
Sat - outside climb
this gives a day between climbs and at least two days between lift sessions. if you want another running day just tag it onto the end of one of these, whichever you feel better after. i see better results by hitting my exercise/climb days hard, then having a complete rest...as opposed to every day being medium effort and having no rest days. good luck
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lofstromc
Feb 13, 2008, 2:11 AM
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Another thing that would help and can be added to any of your climbing gym days is to do boulder routes and lock off (bent arm and sucking your body into the wall)onto each hold. That helps with strength
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Ksaw
Feb 13, 2008, 3:40 AM
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I'm going to try that lock-out practice for sure.
The other option that I've been considering is combining chest and triceps, but that is an unfortunate combination because they are both pushing and non-complimenting muscle groups.
As you stated, many lifts work both: Bench, dips, closed grip bench, etc. which means that neither can be worked to its max, which is the problem I have combining them, though it might just be how it has to be.
The confusion about the training one muscle group a day thing is coming from the fact that I don't want to combine the pushing groups (chest/tri's) unless I have to and the complimenting muscle groups (Bis/Back/Shoulders) are worked during climbing. Otherwise I would do chest/back and bi's/tri's.
So it is not that I want to do only one a day, and hammer sick 20 inch triceps, I just don't want to burn out a primary muscle group by using it as a secondary too much on the same day.
So you do think I could work out bi's back and shoulders then climb the next day without hurting myself or being too incredibly tired? That seems like it would be some overtraining and be begging for tendonitis, but if not that'd be great.
And your right about the rest day, I really should work one in there, but I have a hard time making myself stop and slow down. That's one of the main reasons I'm seeking advice here, so I don't hurt myself.
Thanks!
(This post was edited by Ksaw on Feb 13, 2008, 3:42 AM)
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Climbnkev
Feb 13, 2008, 4:32 AM
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I know this will be hard for you, but it is important to know that your strength is actually your weakness when it comes to climbing. Strength limits technical mastery, why learn to balance over your hips when you can do a one arm lockoff? If you truly want to become a good climber I would recomend giving up your membership to the health club and spending more time at the climbing gym. Maybe this means going every other day? Spend the other day running or swimming to shed un-needed muscle. Add a few sets of pushups, reverse wrist curls, rotator cuff stabilizing excercises, and core work and call it good. I know this is not what you want to hear, and doubt you will take it seriously.
Also I would guess you were getting tweaked elbows from over pulling more than from weak antagonistics.
I will leave you with the following observation - Never in the 15 years that I have been climbing have I seen the strongest guys be the best climbers. Most of the time these guys are struggling in the 5.11 range on plastic, getting up the climbs by using brute force. Take them to a technical climbing area and they generally will be shut down on 5.10's. At the same time I have seen young women with no upper body strength that have become 5.12 climbers in a few years. If you really want to become a good climber you are going to have to completely redefine your understanding of strength.
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