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miavzero
Feb 13, 2008, 5:17 AM
Post #26 of 47
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What's wrong with lifting after your climbing workouts? I prefer to have 3-5 days per week where I climb and lift weights afterwards. I would never sacrifice a climbing day for an enhanced lifting routine.
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angry
Feb 13, 2008, 6:09 AM
Post #27 of 47
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Let me just say that I love your weightbench education here. Is the guy with ripped tank top the prof?
Aerli is probably punching herself in the face after reading that.
Beautiful.
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hopperhopper
Feb 13, 2008, 6:13 AM
Post #28 of 47
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Ksaw wrote: As you stated, many lifts work both: Bench, dips, closed grip bench, etc. which means that neither can be worked to its max, which is the problem I have combining them, though it might just be how it has to be.
I don't understand your reasoning here. If you have big arms & small chest, your chest might give out before your tri's in which case you can jump over to some skull crushers to wear them out the rest of the way. or vice versa if your chest is better.
Ksaw wrote: So you do think I could work out bi's back and shoulders then climb the next day without hurting myself or being too incredibly tired? That seems like it would be some overtraining and be begging for tendonitis, but if not that'd be great.
I don't usually work out my back or forearms in the gym because they get hit hard on the wall, so I never find fatigue a problem, and i've never felt that sore/tired biceps hurt my climbing very much. i'm 17 with good tendons (never feel pain in elbows or fingers) so i can't tell you what to do with that...if it hurts, ease off.
Ksaw wrote: And your right about the rest day, I really should work one in there, but I have a hard time making myself stop and slow down.
i feel you here. it feels like there aren't enough days in the week to get all the exercises i want in, but i always make myself chill out at least one or two days a week. the benefits offset the restlessness.
Climbnkev wrote: I know this will be hard for you, but it is important to know that your strength is actually your weakness when it comes to climbing. Strength limits technical mastery, why learn to balance over your hips when you can do a one arm lockoff? If you truly want to become a good climber I would recomend giving up your membership to the health club and spending more time at the climbing gym.
idiocy. only when people substitute strength for technique is it detrimental. that is not synonymous with having strength.
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angry
Feb 13, 2008, 6:28 AM
Post #29 of 47
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hopperhopper wrote: i'm 17 with good tendons
Climbnkev wrote: I know this will be hard for you, but it is important to know that your strength is actually your weakness when it comes to climbing. Strength limits technical mastery, why learn to balance over your hips when you can do a one arm lockoff? If you truly want to become a good climber I would recomend giving up your membership to the health club and spending more time at the climbing gym.
hopperhopper wrote: idiocy. only when people substitute strength for technique is it detrimental. that is not synonymous with having strength.
Have I mentioned yet that I effin love this thread. Dammit, I love this whole effin website!!!
(This post was edited by angry on Feb 13, 2008, 6:29 AM)
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rgold
Feb 13, 2008, 1:33 PM
Post #30 of 47
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If the OP really wanted a training program that was optimal for climbing, he wouldn't be doing classic lifting exercises in the body-building style. (Remember I'm one of those who've been arguing in favor of supplemental training!) The guy wants to combine body-building and climbing---fine, why not, as long as it is clear that this isn't going to be the best possible approach to climbing alone.
I think the best (only?) reference for classic weight training as it applies to climbing is Climbing: Training for Peak Performance by Clyde Soles (Mountaineers Books). He has training calenders and all kinds of other advice for various types of climbing (but unlike all of the other training texts, no focus on sport climbing).
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hopperhopper
Feb 13, 2008, 2:23 PM
Post #31 of 47
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angry wrote: hopperhopper wrote: i'm 17 with good tendons
thought somebody would like that 
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aerili
Feb 13, 2008, 4:55 PM
Post #32 of 47
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Ksaw wrote: Aerili, So the only possible choice is training each individually one separate days to allow 5 days rest or work them only partially multiple days a week which will see no growth in my muscle because they are already too strong to even be maintained on a 2 times a week mini-workout.
First of all, I am trying to understand this sentence, but I am having a really hard time. The current evidence in the professional strength training literature (for many years now) is that if you do even ONE SINGLE MAXIMAL workout a week, you can maintain your strength. Period. Two workouts targeting the same muscle groups (if worked to proper state of exhaustion and with adequate variation in stimulus) should allow you to see gains.
Ksaw, I will admit training bodybuilders is not my forte, although I have never seen a single routine in a bodybuilding magazine that was not anything other than the most basic of exercises to me. I have never read one article that promised bigger/stronger whatever that actually introduced something new or revolutionary to me (the only exceptions are Eric Cressey's articles, but then again, he has proper education, credentials, and fantastic and well rounded knowledge of things beyond bodybuilding alone).
Now, training athletes (and ordinary weekend warriors) to improve performance is something I am very familiar with, and let me just say (with no condescension whatsoever) that it is quite apparent to me that your understanding of those kinds of training methodologies is basically nil. I am not putting you down for that because I understand where your background and experience comes from based on your statements, but you would be hard pressed to find a single performance coach in this country who would say that 1) isolation training is good for functional strength and performance enhancement (which I assume you do want?), and 2) that putting an entire session on just triceps is nothing more than a big waste of time. In fact, your reasoning to split complimentary pushing muscle groups makes little sense to me.
In reply to: Lower-body lifting is no longer a necessity for me, just trust me on that one. Though I can only help but wonder what you consider "lifting" for your legs, because anything other than high-rep low weight definition or endurance work, if done properly, would probably leave someone off the wall the next day climbing wise.
Well, if you're training in a gym, I think it's manageable; if you want to climb outdoors, it would all depend on what style of climbing you're doing, how long your approach is, and how much gear and other things you have to carry to determine whether or not you should do any lifting (upper or lower body) the two days prior.
I don't train my lower body in isolation style, anyway, so my effects may be different than what your thinking of. But the thing that I find weird is you don't think blasting your chest and triceps has no effect on your climbing the next day?? I would assume you know that the sternal pec major fibers are directly involved in overhead pulling motions (and I find my chest seems to work pretty hard at times on overhanging gym stuff), not to mention that mantling and any corner climbing will greatly involve your triceps.
I don't know your precise goals (both performance-wise and appearance-wise), your age, or your genetics wrt body type and dominant muscle fiber type, but if you do want to maintain bodybuilding-type goals, running goals (?) and also climb, I would agree with rgold's statement that they are not complimentary and yes, you may have to accept that you will get mediocre results in all categories. That, however, is not a good or bad thing, merely your personal decision. People on here can be fanatical about the pursuit of climbing well and nothing else, but there are many individuals out there like yourself who have a variety of interests in the physical activity domain.
Just understand that most of your responses here will be from people who only think about climbing well and nothing else. (Oh, I don't count myself as one of them, though.) 
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aerili
Feb 13, 2008, 5:12 PM
Post #33 of 47
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angry wrote: Let me just say that I love your weightbench education here. Is the guy with ripped tank top the prof? Aerli is probably punching herself in the face after reading that. Beautiful.
Haaaaaa!
In reply to: Have I mentioned yet that I effin love this thread. Dammit, I love this whole effin website!!!
Me too. I don't care what people say, this site is the most entertaining of them ALL!!
rgold wrote: I think the best (only?) reference for classic weight training as it applies to climbing is Climbing: Training for Peak Performance by Clyde Soles (Mountaineers Books). He has training calenders and all kinds of other advice for various types of climbing (but unlike all of the other training texts, no focus on sport climbing).
I think this book is excellent! It definitely touches on a lot of things that other climbing books don't. Mr. Soles sticks with strictly traditional lifting exercises, yes, which I would not necessarily do (or--not all of them anyway), but then again, I think he has no exposure to the newer forms of resistance training that focus more on integrating kinematics of the body as a whole, instead of separating out its parts.
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borntorocku
Feb 13, 2008, 6:41 PM
Post #34 of 47
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I have been climbing and lifting seriously for several years. I would suggest Self-Coached Climber for climbing and www.crossfit.com for lifting.
Here is what I have learned:
-Always climb before lifting
-Clearly define goals, your actions will follow
-Keep a journal
-Vary both as much you can
-Increase volume slowly
-Take complete breaks from both
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robdotcalm
Feb 13, 2008, 10:58 PM
Post #35 of 47
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hopperhopper wrote: idiocy. only when people substitute strength for technique is it detrimental. that is not synonymous with having strength.
Brilliant. You're only 17 and a great wordsmith. You've said in one sentence what many of us had spent pages trying to explain.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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Climbnkev
Feb 14, 2008, 2:04 AM
Post #36 of 47
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First off, I in no way believe that strength is not important in climbing. As this conversation is focused on helping a previous (current) bodybuilder I seriously doubt that strength is his issue, although it may not feel that way to the him. So if you already possess above average strength does it not make sense to focus on your weakness, which in this case would be technique? I would say this focus should basically exclude any strength work, as he needs to probably loose upwards of 10-20 pounds of muscle if he wants to have any chance of climbing higher grades.
BTW Hopper, I would recommend a similar routine for you as well, but as you obviously know everything about climbing as a 17 year old I am sure you would tell me to go to hell. You do know who Ben Moon is don't you? Maybe check out what he has to say about strength training when you have a break from insulting others.
(This post was edited by Climbnkev on Feb 14, 2008, 2:08 AM)
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supersonick
Feb 14, 2008, 2:28 AM
Post #37 of 47
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Why would you lift weights for rock climbing. I cannot approve this schedule.
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michal104
Feb 14, 2008, 2:50 AM
Post #38 of 47
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I'm sure Ben Moon has said lots of things about strength, but one of them is that "technique is no substitute for strength." However, pretty sure he mainly meant finger strength, which you definitely can't train by lifting weights.
So, the OP wants to keep lifting weights/looking ripped, etc. and get better at climbing....stop telling him to just climb and lose 20 pounds of muscle - that's clearly not his goal. That said, here is what I would suggest:
1. Lift on your climbing days after you climb. Yes, you won't be able to put up as much weight. If you climb, lift, climb consecutive days you are asking for an injury. Climbing puts a ton of strain on your flexor tendons. So does lifting heavy weights. If you don't give your elbows days off from climbing and lifting you will get injured eventually and miss out on being able to climb and lift weights - trust me, I've been there.
2. You won't be able to lift weights the same way you did as a bodybuilder (or powerlifter...forgot which, sorry) if you're going to add climbing to the mix. If you want to keep lifting, by all means do so. I personally need to do chest workouts or I develop shoulder issues from just climbing. The lifting, done correctly, will balance you out. But, if you're serious about improving at climbing, that will take up a good amount of time and muscular energy that you could otherwise devote to lifting.
3. Try to schedule one or two days of rest a week from everything. CNS fatigue will make your climbing and lifting suffer.
Good luck, let us know what works.
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zeke_sf
Feb 14, 2008, 2:54 AM
Post #39 of 47
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After lift hard, I break all scrawny climber in two. I lock you out with humangous strength in my pecs, traps, and tries. Your breathing is futile. All hail HUGEZEKE!
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hopperhopper
Feb 14, 2008, 3:51 AM
Post #40 of 47
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Climbnkev wrote: BTW Hopper, I would recommend a similar routine for you as well, but as you obviously know everything about climbing as a 17 year old I am sure you would tell me to go to hell. You do know who Ben Moon is don't you? Maybe check out what he has to say about strength training when you have a break from insulting others.
your misconceptions are astounding.
a) i'm a sophomore engineering student at Texas A&M. that means i don't have time for my ideal workout. if i did, it would be my ideal workout, not yours.
b) i never claimed to be an expert on lifting or climbing. i have, however tried many things and seen what works, along with a large share of reading. i know enough to answer questions like this. i leave the specifics to the veterans.
c) you don't know me. if you did, you'd know i would never tell you to go to hell.
d) i don't even know what to say about the ben moon comment
e) i never insulted you, i insulted your ignorant statement. if that offends you, sorry. add rockclimbing.com to your AOL Parental Access list
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Climbnkev
Feb 14, 2008, 4:00 AM
Post #41 of 47
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Michael, that is a good guess but unfortunately it is wrong. Here is a quote from Ben Moon, and you can read his interview here http://www.climbandmore.com/climbing,431,0,1,training.html
Ben Moon Quote:
JUST CLIMB, CLIMB, CLIMB …
I think that young people worry too much about training and don’t climb enough. Now, I spend all my time training, but in the early days I’d climb, climb, climb. Technique is the key; all good climbers have it, and you’re not going to get it on a campus board, or doing footless problems, or even climbing on plastic. The time to start training is when you stop improving.
But you know your totally right, Ksaw if you want to keep the ripped body and want to know how to work in weights into your climbing then go for it. Sorry for telling you what to do, I would recommend checking out crossfit.com for more functional strength workouts.
BTW I do pullups, pushups, rotator cuff exercises and core work a few times a week, and do the following workout 1-2 times a month:
Cindy
5 pullups
10 pushups
15 airsquats or crunches
repeat for 20 minutes w/o rest.
This is a MetCon (Metabolic Conditioning) workout I find very effective that translates well to managing a pump when trying to onsight a hard climb. Plus I cannot do much more than 5 pullups in a set, but I can crank out 35-50 with this workout...and I feel like I am going to puke when I am done...which is good.
Good Luck!
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Climbnkev
Feb 14, 2008, 4:09 AM
Post #42 of 47
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Hopper,
Like I said you obviously know a lot more about climbing and training than I do. Congrats on the engineering BTW, you must be a pretty smart cat. I hope it works out for you.
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supersonick
Feb 14, 2008, 4:50 AM
Post #43 of 47
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Climbnkev,
I am a young people worry too much and don't climb enough. I am impressed for your knowledge.
Will you create a training program for me involving the Cyndi. I will pay you $103.
Please response.
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jt512
Feb 14, 2008, 5:08 AM
Post #44 of 47
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rgold wrote: If the OP really wanted a training program that was optimal for climbing, he wouldn't be doing classic lifting exercises in the body-building style. (Remember I'm one of those who've been arguing in favor of supplemental training!) The guy wants to combine body-building and climbing---fine, why not, as long as it is clear that this isn't going to be the best possible approach to climbing alone.
Right, which is why those of you who bet that I was going to pop up before Aerili in this thread were destined to lose.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Feb 14, 2008, 5:09 AM)
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pro_alien
Feb 14, 2008, 1:18 PM
Post #45 of 47
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Ksaw, I don't know your genetics, but working out every day is too much for my recovery abilities. Something I have done at times is to space workouts around 36 hours, e.g. do
day 1 morning
day 2 evening
day 3 rest (or you could do a run)
day 4 morning
etc.
Time constraints and the gym I have access to (heaviest dumbbell = 65 lbs) mean that my lifting is mostly "maintenance" at this point.
An entire workout for triceps sounds excessive, waste of time to go to the gym just for that...
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roy_hinkley_jr
Feb 14, 2008, 6:31 PM
Post #46 of 47
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aerili wrote: rgold wrote: I think the best (only?) reference for classic weight training as it applies to climbing is Climbing: Training for Peak Performance by Clyde Soles (Mountaineers Books). He has training calenders and all kinds of other advice for various types of climbing (but unlike all of the other training texts, no focus on sport climbing). I think this book is excellent! It definitely touches on a lot of things that other climbing books don't. Mr. Soles sticks with strictly traditional lifting exercises, yes, which I would not necessarily do (or--not all of them anyway), but then again, I think he has no exposure to the newer forms of resistance training that focus more on integrating kinematics of the body as a whole, instead of separating out its parts.
New edition coming:
http://outdoortech.blogspot.com/2008/01/new-performance-book-on-way.html
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joswald
Feb 23, 2008, 3:42 PM
Post #47 of 47
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where's the core conditioning? full tricep sessions and no core!!!
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