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getoutmore
Feb 19, 2008, 10:10 PM
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Outdoor route setters and those establishing the grades are typically pretty high level climbers. Do you think they can accurately grade easy routes, say of the 5.6-5.8 nature?
I personally think since these climbs are extremely easy for those usually establishing the grades that they are more often off the mark than say 5.10 and harder climbs. What is your take?
(This post was edited by getoutmore on Feb 19, 2008, 10:29 PM)
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tallndorky
Feb 19, 2008, 10:22 PM
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I am right there with you buddy, if we don't know what grade we are climbing in the gym then there really isn't much point in climbing that particular route, on the other hand if there is a general consensus of the grade then that climb becomes relevant. Gym climbing will remain extraneous until we can come to a concurrence on the grades given there. I suggest everyone carry a log book so that when the day finally arrives and gym climbs are as germane as outdoor climbing all gym climbers can wave this important document under all those self righteous outdoor climber's noses in order to proclaim themselves equal to them.
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tolman_paul
Feb 19, 2008, 10:35 PM
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A climber that is broad based in their experience will be able to fairly accurately grade routes.
The tough part is grading is very subjective. A 5.8 route could be 5.6 with one 5.8 move, or every move is 5.8.
As to why some routes might seem under graded, ie harder than their grade would indicate, sometimes folks don't want to grade a route too hard, so might err too conservativley, some routes have key holds break and become more difficult, and some folks sandbag by undergrading routes.
A final thought is there are alot of factors that go into making a route seem hard in addition to the physical difficulty of the moves. There is the exposure of the route, the amount of protection on the route, and then there is your mood the day you climb a route.
I've been utterly gripped and had to back off 5.7's, and walked up 5.9's. I never doubted the 5.9's were physically more difficult, but there are some moderate routes that mentally challenge you.
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climbsomething
Feb 19, 2008, 10:39 PM
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getoutmore wrote: Outdoor route setters
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getoutmore
Feb 19, 2008, 11:02 PM
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Outdoor route setters...maybe that's not the best way to describe them. How about those that put the bolts, hangers, and rappel stations up for outdoor sport routes? Better? 
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tolman_paul
Feb 19, 2008, 11:08 PM
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The biggest problem I think folks who started climbing in gyms have progressing to real work is having to think about what can be used as a hold. Gym routes are pretty clear cut as to what the holds are, and you don't have to think. On rock, there are many more holds and many moves that you simply don't use in a gym. So while you may be able to crank up a 5.10 in a gym, a 5.8 on rock my appear featureless in comparison.
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getoutmore
Feb 19, 2008, 11:14 PM
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I've never climbed in a gym and am not referring to gym climbing or comparing the two.
I guess my question is, to put it more blunt, can someone who regularly climbs 5.12 differentiate between say, a 5.6 and 5.7 climb?
I don't think the can very well. I believe one who climbs closer to this grade could do it more accurately.
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the_climber
Feb 19, 2008, 11:27 PM
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You don't have to be a 5.12 climber to establish new routes.
That said, I'd have to say rating climbs in the 5.4 to 5.7 range are about the hardest to nail down what a fair grade is.
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shimanilami
Feb 19, 2008, 11:45 PM
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I think that the best people to grade a 5.X climb are those who climb at that level or perhaps a little harder. There is, for example, little difference between a 5.11a and 5.11d for someone who routinely climbs 5.14, but for a 5.11 climber like myself, there is a very noticeable difference.
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hugepedro
Feb 19, 2008, 11:48 PM
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I hate my local outdoor route setters. They're always changing the routes I've been working before I get a chance to send, and they sandbag everything so my hardest redpoint is only a 5.6b.
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alwaysclimbing07
Feb 20, 2008, 12:22 AM
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I used to set routes in a gym, and i would definitely say that its hard to grade stuff thats alot easier than you climb. I couldn't tell the difference between 5.4 and 5.9, and i typically would rate it easier than i thought it was just because i didn't want people to accuse me of creating a habbit of soft grades in the gym
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vegastradguy
Feb 20, 2008, 12:25 AM
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getoutmore wrote: I've never climbed in a gym and am not referring to gym climbing or comparing the two. I guess my question is, to put it more blunt, can someone who regularly climbs 5.12 differentiate between say, a 5.6 and 5.7 climb? I don't think the can very well. I believe one who climbs closer to this grade could do it more accurately.
generally speaking, guys who can climb 5.12 aren't looking for easy lines- they're looking for 5.12 routes.
I regularly put up new routes in Red Rock- almost all of them 5.10 and under- there are some that i'm shocked no one has done before, but it usually comes down to the other folks who are putting up new stuff simply climb harder and are looking for a harder line.
however, i think you're right about being able to distinguish between the grades- i climb at about 5.10 most days, and anything below 5.8 all feels the same to me for the most part, although something that's say...5.5 with a distinct 5.7 crux is easier to spot than a sustained 5.7 route. i suspect that folks cranking 5.12 on gear would have a hard time distinguishing between 5.9 and 5.8 for the most part.
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onceahardman
Feb 20, 2008, 12:27 AM
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In reply to: Outdoor route setters...maybe that's not the best way to describe them. How about those that put the bolts, hangers, and rappel stations up for outdoor sport routes? Better?
The term is, "First Ascensionist".
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moose_droppings
Feb 20, 2008, 12:33 AM
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onceahardman wrote: In reply to: Outdoor route setters...maybe that's not the best way to describe them. How about those that put the bolts, hangers, and rappel stations up for outdoor sport routes? Better? The term is, "First Ascensionist".
Even when they rap bolt?
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irregularpanda
Feb 20, 2008, 1:03 AM
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moosedroppings wrote
[even when they rap bolt?]
I never get tired of this argument. If it was rap bolted, it was not FA'd traditionally or "from the ground up".
but you already knew that.
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tolman_paul
Feb 20, 2008, 1:09 AM
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I always wonder of those bemoaning rap bolting vs ground up et all have put up many routes or drilled many bolts.
I'm partial to a good end product, proper location for a clip and a well drilled hole with a solid bolt.
First ascent is just that, no more no less.
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evanwish
Feb 20, 2008, 1:24 AM
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i think the only difference it comes down to is not that the climb itself is harder, but that people don't see the holds figure out the moves...
it shouldn't be whether someone can climb 5.x indoors and 5.y outdoors.. but rather they can routefind or realize the moves
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socalclimber
Feb 20, 2008, 1:36 AM
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Yup. As far as I'm concerned, route setters are gymbies. FA's belong to those of us who do their craft outdoors. Rap bolting, top roping, leading, etc.
Just be honest how you did the route, and, respect the local ethics.
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socalclimber
Feb 20, 2008, 1:46 AM
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irregularpanda wrote: moosedroppings wrote [even when they rap bolt?] I never get tired of this argument. If it was rap bolted, it was not FA'd traditionally or "from the ground up". but you already knew that.
Total pretentious bullshit. See my above post.
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climbsomething
Feb 20, 2008, 2:11 AM
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irregularpanda wrote: I never get tired of this argument.
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moose_droppings
Feb 20, 2008, 3:57 AM
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socalclimber wrote: moosedroppings wrote: even when they rap bolt? irregularpanda then wrote: I never get tired of this argument. If it was rap bolted, it was not FA'd traditionally or "from the ground up". but you already knew that. Total pretentious bullshit. See my above post.
Fixed it to correct who said what.
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epoch
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Feb 20, 2008, 10:46 AM
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moose_droppings wrote: onceahardman wrote: In reply to: Outdoor route setters...maybe that's not the best way to describe them. How about those that put the bolts, hangers, and rappel stations up for outdoor sport routes? Better? The term is, "First Ascensionist". Even when they rap bolt? 
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jmvc
Feb 20, 2008, 11:47 AM
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tallndorky wrote: I am right there with you buddy, if we don't know what grade we are climbing in the gym then there really isn't much point in climbing that particular route,..
Tell the truth I don't know the grade of half the stuff I've climbed, outdoors and indoors.. Who cares? so long as you have fun..
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