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hammerless = clean aid?
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vashie


Mar 1, 2008, 9:24 PM
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hammerless = clean aid?
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I have been looking at adding some toucans to my fledgling pin rack and was wondering, would you consider these a "clean" piece it placed hammerless. I mean is a hammerless placement the ultimate definition of clean aid? That would then coincide with all hand placed pins and hooks, right? Just curious.


coastal_climber


Mar 1, 2008, 9:40 PM
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Re: [vashie] hammerless = clean aid? [In reply to]
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I would say anything that doesn't damage the rock is clean climbing, which is pretty much the definition.

>Cam


pmyche


Mar 2, 2008, 2:40 PM
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coastal_climber


Mar 2, 2008, 3:11 PM
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Re: [pmyche] hammerless = clean aid? [In reply to]
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pmyche wrote:
The ultimate definition of clean aid is where you just observe the line and don't climb it. Anything beyond that causes impact.

Then why would it be called aid if you don't even touch the rock?

>Cam


moose_droppings


Mar 2, 2008, 3:43 PM
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Re: [vashie] hammerless = clean aid? [In reply to]
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vashie wrote:
I have been looking at adding some toucans to my fledgling pin rack and was wondering, would you consider these a "clean" piece it placed hammerless. I mean is a hammerless placement the ultimate definition of clean aid? That would then coincide with all hand placed pins and hooks, right? Just curious.

You know you can hammer toucans in to tight placements.

Above all to me its not damaging the rock, but on a very small scale even placing your foot to some extent is doing damage. Guess I've always considered any piece that was just placed, as opposed to being forced into place, as clean aid.
Its a fair question and will see it play out as to what everyone calls clean aid.


pmyche


Mar 2, 2008, 4:26 PM
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Re: [moose_droppings] hammerless = clean aid? [In reply to]
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Cean aid--clean climbing--is an oxymoron. I don't care what vernacular happens to be fashionable.

What moose said. No way to climb without impact.


(This post was edited by pmyche on Mar 2, 2008, 4:27 PM)


el_layclimber


Mar 2, 2008, 5:02 PM
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Re: [pmyche] hammerless = clean aid? [In reply to]
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pmyche wrote:
Cean aid--clean climbing--is an oxymoron. I don't care what vernacular happens to be fashionable.

What moose said. No way to climb without impact.

But there is such thing as climbing with minimizing impact in mind. I won't try to convince anyone that is the right way to do it, but it's an ethic I aspire to, and I believe it can apply to my treatment of the environment in general.
I would say that a pin placed by hand, or a hook placement that can also be removed by hand without scarring the rock is just as clean as a nut or cam.


pmyche


Mar 2, 2008, 6:24 PM
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vashie


Mar 2, 2008, 7:44 PM
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Re: [pmyche] hammerless = clean aid? [In reply to]
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I agree as well. Thanks for all the input. Oddly enough this conversation started (for me) on a mixed climb last week. The initial controversy being was it un-ethical to "pin" the route, arguing that a piton like a bolt damaged the rock and because the "first ascentonist" didn't place a pin you shouldn't either. And we're not talking fixed pins, but blade placements. Humm, another question for rock scholars to lose sleep over, hee.


stymingersfink


Mar 11, 2008, 6:17 PM
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Re: [vashie] hammerless = clean aid? [In reply to]
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vashie wrote:
I agree as well. Thanks for all the input. Oddly enough this conversation started (for me) on a mixed climb last week. The initial controversy being was it un-ethical to "pin" the route, arguing that a piton like a bolt damaged the rock and because the "first ascentonist" didn't place a pin you shouldn't either. And we're not talking fixed pins, but blade placements. Humm, another question for rock scholars to lose sleep over, hee.
when you say "mixed climb" I think of ice tools, in which case anything's fair game. just because the FA didn't have a pin to place doesn't mean you can't place a pin you've got on your rack.


healyje


Mar 12, 2008, 3:12 AM
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Re: [vashie] hammerless = clean aid? [In reply to]
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To some hard-core folks in the Valley, truly clean aid isn't a matter of whether you use a hammer - it's whether you bring a hammer, even if it stays in the bottom of your haul bag. And some clean aid does use pitons, albeit hand-placed and unhammered. There are also still plenty of big wall routes that haven't been done clean, let alone free.


chossmonkey


Mar 12, 2008, 5:40 AM
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pmyche wrote:
The ultimate definition of clean aid is where you just observe the line and don't climb it. Anything beyond that causes impact.
Dude, I hope you just mean "stay in your car on the road and look through a telescope".

Otherwise you will crush the grass, cause erosion, and possibly step on bugs if you just walk to the base.



By the way. Your drum circle causes a noise pollution impact.


chossmonkey


Mar 12, 2008, 5:48 AM
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Re: [stymingersfink] hammerless = clean aid? [In reply to]
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stymingersfink wrote:
vashie wrote:
I agree as well. Thanks for all the input. Oddly enough this conversation started (for me) on a mixed climb last week. The initial controversy being was it un-ethical to "pin" the route, arguing that a piton like a bolt damaged the rock and because the "first ascentonist" didn't place a pin you shouldn't either. And we're not talking fixed pins, but blade placements. Humm, another question for rock scholars to lose sleep over, hee.
when you say "mixed climb" I think of ice tools, in which case anything's fair game. just because the FA didn't have a pin to place doesn't mean you can't place a pin you've got on your rack.
Exactly, also the conditions of mixed routes change so much as well that the FA may have been getting screws in where all you have left is a muddy seam.

They may also had bigger balls/less to live for than you.

Just don't ad fixed pro to routes and know how to place pins before needing to on a route. Most damage from pins occurs from improper placement.


Also, get Specters rather than toucans if you are using them for winter climbing.


krusher4


Mar 12, 2008, 6:05 AM
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Re: [chossmonkey] hammerless = clean aid? [In reply to]
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chossmonkey wrote:
pmyche wrote:
The ultimate definition of clean aid is where you just observe the line and don't climb it. Anything beyond that causes impact.
Dude, I hope you just mean "stay in your car on the road and look through a telescope".

Otherwise you will crush the grass, cause erosion, and possibly step on bugs if you just walk to the base.



By the way. Your drum circle causes a noise pollution impact.

So if your truly dedicated to climbing and the environment you will never leave your home....that is really hard-core and would mean the 'best climbers' never touch the rock........


pmyche


Mar 12, 2008, 7:23 AM
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chossmonkey


Mar 12, 2008, 8:38 AM
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Re: [pmyche] hammerless = clean aid? [In reply to]
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pmyche wrote:
chossmonkey wrote:
pmyche wrote:
The ultimate definition of clean aid is where you just observe the line and don't climb it. Anything beyond that causes impact.
Dude, I hope you just mean "stay in your car on the road and look through a telescope".

Otherwise you will crush the grass, cause erosion, and possibly step on bugs if you just walk to the base.

Your car's noise, emissions and visual presence already impacted the area before you stepped out of it.

No its your car.

I'll drive my truck there and nail the aid route.Smile


skiclimb


Mar 12, 2008, 4:33 PM
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Re: [vashie] hammerless = clean aid? [In reply to]
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Seems like clean aid to me. Certainly cleamer than banging a knifeblade in and having the second clean it.

I am not the greatest fan of clean aid but then again I'm a bit more of a coward than Jim Beyer too. No appologies.

However anytie you can find a reasonable way to aid a route without doing the kind of damage that pounding a pin does i'd say you are on the right track to whatever "clean aid" is.

But if you come behind me expousing clean aid then break both ankles after I suggested a pin i'm still gonna laugh at you behind you back for being an egotistical clean aid idjit.


vashie


Mar 12, 2008, 10:00 PM
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Re: [vashie] hammerless = clean aid? [In reply to]
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Ok got it! for now on I will only think of climbing the route, rather than cause a solely cosmetic deformity to the rock (which will of course out live me and the rest of humanity) and I will offset my car-based ogling of routes by purchasing (blackmailed) carbon credits from Mr. Gore! Sweet I am gong to recycle my pitons into farming implements for a third-world rice Ital rice plantation. Yes, the future of climbing has arrived! ha ha ha.


MonkeyPlauge


Mar 13, 2008, 10:44 AM
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Generally for "clean" climbing I just make sure to wash my googlies.


Partner euroford


Mar 14, 2008, 7:30 AM
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Re: [MonkeyPlauge] hammerless = clean aid? [In reply to]
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amongst all the babble, yeah. if you don't use the hammer, you climbed it clean, thus a "C" rating instead of an "A" regardless of all the blablabla about impact.

however, as a matter of style "hammerless" is far superior to having one with and just leaving the hammer in the bag. it shows commitment rather than being able to bang that blade when you get skeered.

hand placing a pin or beak isn't really any different then hooking. which may create an impact, but is still "clean".


(This post was edited by euroford on Mar 14, 2008, 7:31 AM)


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