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caughtinside
Mar 3, 2008, 10:23 PM
Post #26 of 46
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Just like if you don't keep a sharp eye on the PTFTW you'll lose it, you need to keep an eye on your climber. If they're out of sight though it is ok to be attentive w/o straining your neck.
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onceahardman
Mar 3, 2008, 10:26 PM
Post #27 of 46
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In reply to: I have to disagree with the bolded statement. Which may be a bit of a semantic argument, but in my opinion the climber is firstly responsible for his/her life, and the belayer is there to support what the climber is doing. I agree completely. In the absense of my directly telling my belayer, "hey if I fall here, give me a soft catch" (Which I have never done, BTW), I EXPECT my belayer to make the catch, as quickly as reasonably possible. I expect he (she) will pay reasonable attention at all times, and special attention when I call for it, or am at an obvious crux or dicey clip. If he needs to get a sip of water while I'm at a good stance, that's fine with me. Don't let go of the brake hand, of course. I think the OP was fine. A safe catch was made, which is pretty good evidence for the success of "the system".
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majid_sabet
Mar 3, 2008, 10:29 PM
Post #28 of 46
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Sin wrote: vegastradguy wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Sorry dudes but I am not buying this BS about yelling as you fall. You as a belayer are in charge of your partner's life (assuming he done his part to protect himself while leading). Next, you guys will come up with an excuse that he decked and die because he did not yell at me while falling. He could be above a ledge, gets hit by a rock and then fall. You still want him to yell “ DUDE I AM FALLING CATCH MY ROPE” ? Did not think so nice going to the other extreme, majid. of course the belayer is in charge of the climbers life- no one has said otherwise. the point is, if the climber wants anything more than a basic catch and they are out of sight or in a weird spot, it is their job to communicate that with the belayer when possible. otherwise, when they fall, all the belayer can really do is lock off and catch the fall. he/she can't assume anything other than that! I totally second this opinion, the leader has to communicate with the belayer in order to be caught properly. If i know the next sequence is gonna be sketchy, I tell my belayer to watch out for me. And i always yell out before i peel off, even if there were a small probability in me missing a move I make sure my belayer is ready. Besides dude ur pretty much engaged completely when belaying a leader, constantly giving and taking slack. I'd say that asking someone to belay you properly, without you communicating is to much to ask for. Id say asking anymore from a belayer would be in the realm of being clairvoyant. Hey you should definitly ask Sylvia Browne if shes available to climb some time, or atleast to tell ur belayer when ur gonna fall .....Lol There are times, locations and conditions where you can not just simply communicate with your partner. An example would be a windy day, climbing over a roof...... etc. A good belayer should understand how to read rope movement and be alert cause a falling leader may or may not yell for help. yelling is an addition but you should not wait for your partner to respond. Not to forget that there some older deaf climbers who can not hear no matter what you say.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Mar 3, 2008, 10:30 PM)
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dingus
Mar 3, 2008, 10:30 PM
Post #29 of 46
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majid_sabet wrote: Sorry dudes but I am not buying this BS about yelling as you fall. You as a belayer are in charge of your partner's life (assuming he done his part to protect himself while leading). Next, you guys will come up with an excuse that he decked and die because he did not yell at me while falling. He could be above a ledge, gets hit by a rock and then fall. You still want him to yell “ DUDE I AM FALLING CATCH MY ROPE” ? Did not think so I don't care if you buy it or not. DMT
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Sin
Mar 3, 2008, 10:40 PM
Post #30 of 46
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majid_sabet wrote: Sin wrote: vegastradguy wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Sorry dudes but I am not buying this BS about yelling as you fall. You as a belayer are in charge of your partner's life (assuming he done his part to protect himself while leading). Next, you guys will come up with an excuse that he decked and die because he did not yell at me while falling. He could be above a ledge, gets hit by a rock and then fall. You still want him to yell “ DUDE I AM FALLING CATCH MY ROPE” ? Did not think so nice going to the other extreme, majid. of course the belayer is in charge of the climbers life- no one has said otherwise. the point is, if the climber wants anything more than a basic catch and they are out of sight or in a weird spot, it is their job to communicate that with the belayer when possible. otherwise, when they fall, all the belayer can really do is lock off and catch the fall. he/she can't assume anything other than that! I totally second this opinion, the leader has to communicate with the belayer in order to be caught properly. If i know the next sequence is gonna be sketchy, I tell my belayer to watch out for me. And i always yell out before i peel off, even if there were a small probability in me missing a move I make sure my belayer is ready. Besides dude ur pretty much engaged completely when belaying a leader, constantly giving and taking slack. I'd say that asking someone to belay you properly, without you communicating is to much to ask for. Id say asking anymore from a belayer would be in the realm of being clairvoyant. Hey you should definitly ask Sylvia Browne if shes available to climb some time, or atleast to tell ur belayer when ur gonna fall .....Lol There are times, locations and conditions where you can not just simply communicate with your partner. An example would be a windy day, climbing over a roof...... etc. A good belayer should understand how to read rope movement and be alert cause a falling leader may or may not yell for help. yelling is an addition but you should not wait for your partner to respond. Not to forget that there some older deaf climbers who can not hear no matter what you say. No offense to deaf people, but climbing with a deaf person alters the level of risk and i guess i would really have to trust his ability to belay before i climbed with said person, and besides, climbing in less than par weather or on a sketchy route is the climbers choice of flavor, and i'd say that its the leaders responsablity to evaluate the situation and make sure he has a competent belayer that knows the basic comms. if hes gonna assume those risks.
(This post was edited by Sin on Mar 3, 2008, 10:51 PM)
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Sin
Mar 3, 2008, 10:41 PM
Post #31 of 46
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dingus wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Sorry dudes but I am not buying this BS about yelling as you fall. You as a belayer are in charge of your partner's life (assuming he done his part to protect himself while leading). Next, you guys will come up with an excuse that he decked and die because he did not yell at me while falling. He could be above a ledge, gets hit by a rock and then fall. You still want him to yell “ DUDE I AM FALLING CATCH MY ROPE” ? Did not think so I don't care if you buy it or not. DMT I just should have said what Dingus said.....
(This post was edited by Sin on Mar 3, 2008, 10:42 PM)
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onceahardman
Mar 3, 2008, 10:43 PM
Post #32 of 46
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In reply to: Not to forget that there some older deaf climbers who can not hear no matter what you say. I don't know, maybe there is a language barrier thing going on. Nobody said it is necessary to yell "FALLING" in order to expect a catch. OF COURSE belayers pay attention to the rope. MOST times in the mountains, you will have no verbal communication, except at belays. A series of quick tugs usually can suffice, but long, wandering pitches, with lots of rope drag can cause havoc with this system. What's the deal dissing deaf people, anyway?
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happiegrrrl
Mar 3, 2008, 10:49 PM
Post #33 of 46
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"The belayer's job is to catch the fall. Everything else is a perk." - drlkodos
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catbird_seat
Mar 4, 2008, 12:01 AM
Post #34 of 46
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Just to clarify a point on anchoring. Ordinarily, I would not anchor for a single pitch climb. However, in this case, the route starts out with a very low angle chimney, after which it steepens to the vertical. The pull on the rope was almost horizontal. You can't use your body weight to counter such a force. You can anchor to avoid being pulled over. To ensure a soft catch, what you do is tie in such that you are not tight against the anchor. You'd have up to a foot of slack. You move with the fall, but the tiein LIMITS your movement.
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baja_java
Mar 4, 2008, 1:22 AM
Post #35 of 46
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the upper half of Nereltne is a clean corner crack that steadily widens from hands to OW, with a somewhat awkward exit move: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...NW_Corner_42430.html gear is straightforward. whether one has the big cams to protect the top, that's the leader's call, as would be the decision to run it out or to back off since a leader on that upper section could clearly see the upcoming widening of the crack. from what i remember, a 4.5 cam wouldn't have protected that much higher than the 4.0 cam that your leader had fallen onto. was he trying to raise the 4.5 cam but couldn't find a higher placement that would still fit, hence the "place, clip, and (re)moving" of the piece? for out-of-sight situations, more verbal communication would help, especially for a short route like that where you're well within earshot of each other. the leader can easily keep the belayer apprised of what s/he is doing and is about to do, to help the belayer to better react to a possible fall in any case, no, not the best time to let your belaying attention wander. as i recall, only the top 2/3 of that upper crack is out of sight from the bottom of that chimney ramp, a stretch of 15' or so from the topout. sure, would be unrealistic to expect full belaying attention 100% of the time forever and ever. but if there's a time to pay extra attention, that little span would be one instance you did lock off as soon as you saw. you did keep him from a ground fall. with the unannounced fall and no prior comm from the leader, not sure how much he could really expect out of you to compensate for the, as others have said, major mistakes he'd made. to nitpick down to a margin of a foot of slack due to not being anchored, or an armlegth of yarding in from not reacting fast enough or clairvoyant enough, in a botched lead situ like that, that's going a bit far. if, for yourself, the experience has prompted you to focus more at the appropriate times, good for you. seems though there're more important lessons for the leader glad to hear no one got hurt
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catbird_seat
Mar 4, 2008, 3:49 PM
Post #36 of 46
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A very nice picture, by the way.
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trenchdigger
Mar 4, 2008, 5:07 PM
Post #37 of 46
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baja_java wrote: the upper half of Nereltne is a clean corner crack that steadily widens from hands to OW, with a somewhat awkward exit move: [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/5/148235-work-42430.jpg[/image] http://www.rockclimbing.com/...NW_Corner_42430.html gear is straightforward. whether one has the big cams to protect the top, that's the leader's call, as would be the decision to run it out or to back off since a leader on that upper section could clearly see the upcoming widening of the crack. from what i remember, a 4.5 cam wouldn't have protected that much higher than the 4.0 cam that your leader had fallen onto. was he trying to raise the 4.5 cam but couldn't find a higher placement that would still fit, hence the "place, clip, and (re)moving" of the piece? for out-of-sight situations, more verbal communication would help, especially for a short route like that where you're well within earshot of each other. the leader can easily keep the belayer apprised of what s/he is doing and is about to do, to help the belayer to better react to a possible fall in any case, no, not the best time to let your belaying attention wander. as i recall, only the top 2/3 of that upper crack is out of sight from the bottom of that chimney ramp, a stretch of 15' or so from the topout. sure, would be unrealistic to expect full belaying attention 100% of the time forever and ever. but if there's a time to pay extra attention, that little span would be one instance you did lock off as soon as you saw. you did keep him from a ground fall. with the unannounced fall and no prior comm from the leader, not sure how much he could really expect out of you to compensate for the, as others have said, major mistakes he'd made. to nitpick down to a margin of a foot of slack due to not being anchored, or an armlegth of yarding in from not reacting fast enough or clairvoyant enough, in a botched lead situ like that, that's going a bit far. if, for yourself, the experience has prompted you to focus more at the appropriate times, good for you. seems though there're more important lessons for the leader glad to hear no one got hurt Well said. While the belay may not have been perfect, it sounds like little difference could have been made had the belayer been paying perfect attention. The lesson to be learned here is by the leader who failed to adequately protect the climb.
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majid_sabet
Mar 4, 2008, 5:22 PM
Post #38 of 46
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onceahardman wrote: In reply to: Not to forget that there some older deaf climbers who can not hear no matter what you say. I don't know, maybe there is a language barrier thing going on. Nobody said it is necessary to yell "FALLING" in order to expect a catch. OF COURSE belayers pay attention to the rope. MOST times in the mountains, you will have no verbal communication, except at belays. A series of quick tugs usually can suffice, but long, wandering pitches, with lots of rope drag can cause havoc with this system. What's the deal dissing deaf people, anyway? go back to first page and look for this
In reply to: I didn't catch your mistake? You did catch the climber, who fucked up big time by falling and not giving you a warning.
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jimo
Mar 4, 2008, 5:44 PM
Post #39 of 46
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Sin wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Sin wrote: vegastradguy wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Sorry dudes but I am not buying this BS about yelling as you fall. You as a belayer are in charge of your partner's life (assuming he done his part to protect himself while leading). Next, you guys will come up with an excuse that he decked and die because he did not yell at me while falling. He could be above a ledge, gets hit by a rock and then fall. You still want him to yell “ DUDE I AM FALLING CATCH MY ROPE” ? Did not think so nice going to the other extreme, majid. of course the belayer is in charge of the climbers life- no one has said otherwise. the point is, if the climber wants anything more than a basic catch and they are out of sight or in a weird spot, it is their job to communicate that with the belayer when possible. otherwise, when they fall, all the belayer can really do is lock off and catch the fall. he/she can't assume anything other than that! I totally second this opinion, the leader has to communicate with the belayer in order to be caught properly. If i know the next sequence is gonna be sketchy, I tell my belayer to watch out for me. And i always yell out before i peel off, even if there were a small probability in me missing a move I make sure my belayer is ready. Besides dude ur pretty much engaged completely when belaying a leader, constantly giving and taking slack. I'd say that asking someone to belay you properly, without you communicating is to much to ask for. Id say asking anymore from a belayer would be in the realm of being clairvoyant. Hey you should definitly ask Sylvia Browne if shes available to climb some time, or atleast to tell ur belayer when ur gonna fall .....Lol There are times, locations and conditions where you can not just simply communicate with your partner. An example would be a windy day, climbing over a roof...... etc. A good belayer should understand how to read rope movement and be alert cause a falling leader may or may not yell for help. yelling is an addition but you should not wait for your partner to respond. Not to forget that there some older deaf climbers who can not hear no matter what you say. No offense to deaf people, but climbing with a deaf person alters the level of risk and i guess i would really have to trust his ability to belay before i climbed with said person, and besides, climbing in less than par weather or on a sketchy route is the climbers choice of flavor, and i'd say that its the leaders responsablity to evaluate the situation and make sure he has a competent belayer that knows the basic comms. if hes gonna assume those risks. Deaf, Hell! Try climbing with a French guy, I had no clue wtf he was saying! He had no clue of what I said so... talk about inherent risks!
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onceahardman
Mar 4, 2008, 5:52 PM
Post #40 of 46
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In reply to: go back to first page and look for this Majid, I did read that. Like I said, maybe it's a language issue. That quote does not mean that you need to yell to expect a belay. It does mean the leader erred (or "F"d up), but that's all. The expectation of a belay begins with "On belay", and ends with "off belay".
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blueeyedclimber
Mar 4, 2008, 6:02 PM
Post #41 of 46
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happiegrrrl wrote: "The belayer's job is to catch the fall. Everything else is a perk." - drlkodos But, I am afforded the right to decline a job offer because the perks aren't sweet enough. Just like I can decline a belay, especially if they don't know what perks to offer. You learn how to catch a fall in your first lesson. Belaying is a little more complicated than that, however.
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phlsphr
Mar 4, 2008, 6:59 PM
Post #42 of 46
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yokese wrote: I don't see it as such a "negligent belaying" either. You arrested the fall (the rope got tight and he didn't deck). In his way down he hit an arete before the rope got tight. Do you really think that anchoring yourself would have avoided him hitting that arete? Sometimes the leader must NOT fall.... in fact, that's quite often the case on 5.7 trad climbs, more so if they are "low angle". The only thing that doesn't sound completely right for me is this: "He was up out of sight fiddling with the Camalot 4.5 which he'd placed, clipped and then removed for some reason, so he had a lot of rope out." Did you actually noticed that he unclipped it?. If so, did you have time to remove all that slack before he fell?. The thing I notice about this comment is the assumption that after unclipping there was a lot of slack. I assume there was a lot of rope out, not becuase of slack, but because once unclipped the climber was well above his last piece. A good leader is not pulling up a bunch of rope and clipping a piece way over their head, so that removing the piece produces a lot of slack. Far better style to typically clip right beside you, rather than way over your head for this very reason--it creates even more rope out, and a longer fall if you don't make the clip.
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dingus
Mar 5, 2008, 2:04 AM
Post #43 of 46
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majid_sabet wrote: go back to first page and look for this In reply to: I didn't catch your mistake? You did catch the climber, who fucked up big time by falling and not giving you a warning. If you climb out of sight around a corner, toss off and don't even give your belayer a warning, you have no right to bitch about the catch you get. Parse away. DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Mar 5, 2008, 2:06 AM)
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nivlac
Mar 5, 2008, 2:38 AM
Post #44 of 46
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dingus wrote: majid_sabet wrote: go back to first page and look for this In reply to: I didn't catch your mistake? You did catch the climber, who fucked up big time by falling and not giving you a warning. If you climb out of sight around a corner, toss off and don't even give your belayer a warning, you have no right to bitch about the catch you get. Parse away. DMT Especially if you toss off and your partner gets hit.
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deltav
Mar 5, 2008, 3:19 AM
Post #45 of 46
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drfelatio wrote: catbird_seat wrote: I caught a fall at Rock Hudson. My buddy was leading this little 5.7 called Nerelnt, or some such. I thought about anchoring because of the low angle start of the climb, but didn't. I was using a ATC Guide in high friction mode. He was up out of sight fiddling with the Camalot 4.5 which he'd placed, clipped and then removed for some reason, so he had a lot of rope out. I couldn't see him when he fell, nor did he holler. I saw him flash into view and only had time to lock off. No time to bring in any rope. He hit his back on an arete forming the outside of the initial chimney before the rope finished going tight. Fortunately he was wearing his helmet and hit just right. He was completely uninjured. The reason I feel bad was that I was tuned into a nearby conversation and didn't have all my attention on my climber. Had I done so, I might have gotten some rope in. What I did right was having good hand position, so minimal slippage, but my body probably moved at least a foot. Some would say that the movement was good from an impact force perspective, but the piece he fell on was a really bomber #4 Camalot. I should have gone with my initial instinct to anchor. Sounds like your biggest mistake was not paying enough attention. Unless a fall will throw the belayer into a roof or some other hazard, you don't want to anchor yourself in. All an anchor does is fixes you in one spot keeping you from moving out of the way of falling hazards and keeping you from providing a soft catch to a falling climber. The belayer should move upwards when they catch a falling climber. Do a search for "dynamic belay" or "soft catch" or some combination thereof to learn more. Unless you are on pitch 5...
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overlord
Mar 5, 2008, 11:40 AM
Post #46 of 46
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dingus wrote: I didn't catch your mistake? You did catch the climber, who fucked up big time by falling and not giving you a warning. In the course of your climbing career you WILL NOT be able to rivet your attention to the leader's ass continuously. Simply won't happen. Your attention WILL BE diverted. I don't care how diligent you are. So here you are listening to the babes on the next route discuss their group sexual behaviors, your leader tosses off out of sight in a potentially deadly scenario and what happens? You caught him, moved a smidgeon, a foot you said? And the leader is alive and well. I'm sorry, I didn't catch your mistake? What was that again? You caught the leader in a very-bad-case scenario without so much as a scratch. Cheers DMT ditto that. while the belayer IS responsible for the leader, it is also the leaders responsibility to warn the belayer in such situations, ESPECIALLY if they are goofing around with gear. i have developed a habit of verbally warning my belayer before a difficult sequence, before making a difficult clip, stuff like that. yes, they should be watching you, but even if they are, they cannot allways predict what you as a leader is about to do. as for me, when belaying, i always keep my eyes on the climber (unless they are out of sight ofcourse), no matter what distraction. yes, you will get distracted. thats life. but your job is to keep the leader off the deck and hopefully in one piece. you did that. kudos for catching an unexpected fall. you did all you could in such a situation (even 'reading the rope' might not work because if there is enough friction in the system, you just cannot really feel the slack increase and in any case, i prefer not to pull my leader off the wall by pulling in slack just before they dyno).
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