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tradguy
Oct 24, 2002, 1:53 PM
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Umm... it was suggested at the gathering in AZ recently that I should change my name to something like "master-marshmallow-roaster-guy", or perhaps "marshmallowman", or maybe just "staypuft", due to my mad skills at roasting the 'mallow.
Anyway, based on that last description, and using a chunk of cord I keep around for practicing knots, I believe I have created the "self-equalizing" knot described. To be sure, if you pull on the middle loop only, the two side loops will cinch down across the top of the figure-8, right? This is definitely different than what I was describing. Playing around with it, it seems kind of cool, but like others have stated, I'm a bit concerned about the friction created in the knot as the rope slides and equalizes. Also, I'm noticing that when I weight this knot, it doesn't seem to equalize very well as I move from side to side, due to the tightening of the knot and the increased friction that creates. Certainly not like a cordelette, or a sewn runner.
To add to the discussion, the knot I described earlier is NOT self-equalizing. I realized this, but because it is very quick and easy to manually equalize, I thought that was maybe what you were talking about. One other thing about the knot I described is that it can be tied for a 3-point anchor also, but requires one more intermediate step. It's actually really cool and handy. Of course, that still wouldn't be truly "self-equalizing".
Clear as mud??
[ This Message was edited by: tradguy on 2002-10-24 06:54 ]
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rrrADAM
Oct 24, 2002, 2:30 PM
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There is only one way to correctly make this knot, I'll try to verbally explain it...
Tie a loose double 8 on a bite opf rope, ending with 4-6 feet of loop. Pass this loop around and through knot at point where loop comes out, do not pull tight. You end up with 3 loops that can be clipped to anchors, and will self equalize. (Note-You can also use 2 loops to one anchor, and 1 to another for a two anchor system.)
This should be used with BOMBER Pro, as it will shock load pro if one fails. It's main use is for building an anchor to belay from while on multi-pitch climbing, and does NOT prequire belaying off the harness, as you can use a locker to attach any piece to the system, and if it fails, it is still in the system backed up by the others. (I personally like to belay off my harness with a directional above me so if the climber falls, it pulls up on the rope.) This saves on the need for cordolette, if you want to travel light while doing multi-pitch, as 2 are needed for each belay (top and bottom of pitches.) Also, clipping into any loop as a "hot point" is OK, as redundancey is built into this system.
If the 2nd is boing to rebelay the 1rst on the next pitch, just clip into system with teathers, untie and switch ends. (No need to mess with reflaking the rope.)
It can also be used for single line rappels, as this was how it was used when I was climbing with 'rck_climber' in SLC, or for rigging systems used to take photos from above.
I'll tie knot, and scan into Gallery, and link to this thread to show a visual of this knot.
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rrrADAM
Oct 24, 2002, 2:36 PM
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This is close, but not the correct way to tie this knot...
There is no redundancey in this knot. Instead of making a "bow tie", pass entire end of loop around and through half way to make 3 seperate loops.
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pbcowboy77
Oct 25, 2002, 6:46 AM
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Well that's the one I was talking about. So good or bad? Back to the question.
-Zac
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slcliffdiver
Oct 25, 2002, 12:54 PM
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Rrradam you generally give really good advice but clipping into one loop is a big mistake. Clipping anything of significant weight into a self equalizing arm is generally a mistake. Clipping yourself doubly so. The loop you weight will grow and the others will shrink and cinch up if you’re unlucky you could dislodge a lower piece or two if you clip into one of the loops of a higher piece and weight it. Maybe you’re thinking about a bowline on a bite.
For some single line raps it sounds like a cool solution hadn’t thought of that before thanks.
Tradguy, staypuft?;) sound like you got it. Have fun;)
Damn 4 (correct) descriptions for one of the simplest knots to tie. Seems a pic is worth about 1000 words;) Okay I do think rrradam improved upon my attempt but it’s still funny.
pbcowboy77 a little more of my take on it and another knot that has similar benifits with fewer warts in my opinion (big caveate if used correctly).
For the equalizing 8 you always need to clip the single loop that gets fed through. Also if the piece blows that’s connected to the single loop fed through and you’re hooked into 3 pieces total you’re relying on the biner or pro that pulled jamming in the knot to prevent the loop from pulling through and prevent potentially massive extension and loading only on the upper piece.
Edit Delete Praising Bowline on a bite:
I forgot that someone showed me that one of the loops can pull shut (friction) if the knot is dressed a certain way? and the wrong line coming out of the knot loading the anchor and I don't remember how to fix it? Maybe I'll stay quiet about anything I haven't used in the last 4-5 years. My memory is doing the Alzhiemers sieve thing I can remember the cool tricks I was shown over a decade age but forgot for a bit more recent info 5 years.
Peace
David
Peace
David
[ This Message was edited by: slcliffdiver on 2002-10-25 06:45 ]
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rrrADAM
Oct 25, 2002, 3:22 PM
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Good point, better to tie a "cows tail" or hot point loop between the 8 and you for teathers, but any loop is still redundant.
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jstreet
Oct 25, 2002, 4:44 PM
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Out of "knots for Climber" by Craig Luebben
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orangekyak
Oct 25, 2002, 4:56 PM
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jstreet that's a great illustration but isn't that a different technique than we've been talking about?
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tradklime
Oct 25, 2002, 5:06 PM
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The knot on the left was the one I was referring to. However, I disagree with how it is shown clipped into two anchors. The biner on the right is clipped into both strands. In the event of failure of the anchor on the left, the only thing maintaining the loop on the right is the biner clipped on the left loop preventing the loop from being pulled through the knot. It will most likely work but...
Better to clip only one of the two strands. This way the other strand will be pulled through and the slack is taken up in the two remaining loops. In this way both biners are actually clipped into the knot itself.
Ragardless, it still has the issues discussed previously and in my opinion only useful when climbing on a single rope and clipping into bomber bolts.
The knot on the right uses an additional locker that is unnecessary. If you have three anchor points, just use the knot on the left and clip into the three loops separately.
[ This Message was edited by: tradklime on 2002-10-25 10:09 ]
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rrrADAM
Oct 25, 2002, 7:21 PM
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The knots above are the correct self equalizing knots I was reffering to.
And the use of the locker in the middle can be a "hot point" for subsequent climbers to clip into, as well as protecting from the "nylon-nylon" friction if a piece fails. (therefore the locker is not "unnecesary" but even a better way.)
Also, when I learned the knot, I was told to "collapse" one of the doubles to make a two point anchor. (just as the above reply says to do.)
I also found this image (knot on left) of the same knot (in the middle) used in a very elaberate system. But the knot in the iamage above is much less confusing, good find.
[ This Message was edited by: rrradam on 2002-10-25 12:29 ]
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jstreet
Oct 25, 2002, 7:42 PM
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You're right tradklime, this system should not be used as shown in the picture on the left. It is a sure way to die if the one anchor breaks. You are only suppose to clip one of the loops.
[ This Message was edited by: jstreet on 2002-10-25 12:46 ]
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tradklime
Oct 25, 2002, 7:44 PM
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rrradam, I stand corrected, good points about the knot on the right. Also, after thinking, it seems like it may even be just a touch easier to set up.
[ This Message was edited by: tradklime on 2002-10-25 12:47 ]
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punk
Oct 25, 2002, 8:26 PM
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I just think that this will be the preferred method since it is easier to rig
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knotrocket
Oct 25, 2002, 8:42 PM
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I learned sumthin' new. Bitchin' A.
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pbcowboy77
Oct 26, 2002, 12:08 AM
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All good pics thanks for the beta on this.
-Zac
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jt512
Oct 26, 2002, 3:52 PM
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The knot on the right in Jstreet's post also looks like a death knot. If the right anchor point fails, the remaining two points will be shock loaded and the right loop could be pulled through the master biner and the biners on the other two anchor points. This knot seems to have the same disadvantage as the sliding X (shock loading) without the advantage (redundancy).
If you like the idea of rigging an anchor with just the rope, use a bowline, which won't shock load the anchor if one anchor point fails.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-10-26 09:11 ]
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biff
Oct 26, 2002, 4:43 PM
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the knot on the right does have redundancy .. if the gear on the right loop fails, and the biner pulls through the biner in the middle of the knot, the rope will not pull through the other two biners, but they will be shock loaded, witch is bad.
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beyond_gravity
Oct 26, 2002, 4:47 PM
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isn't it impossible to have a self-equalising knot that wont shock load the anchor if one point fails?
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jt512
Oct 26, 2002, 5:50 PM
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Quote:...if the gear on the right loop fails, and the biner pulls through the biner in the middle of the knot, the rope will not pull through the other two biners...
Can you guarantee that?
Are you absolutely sure that you would always remember to use a large enough biner on the right? What if you were freezing cold? What if it was dark? What if both?
Even if you did use a large biner. Are you sure this rig would withstand a factor 2 fall? If the right anchor point failed and the right biner was pulled through the master biner, imagine how the left biner would be impacted. What is the strength of the biner when it is loaded like that!?
-Jay
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punk
Oct 26, 2002, 5:55 PM
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Quote:
isn't it impossible to have a self-equalising knot that wont shock load the anchor if one point fails?
Its totally possible just refer to my earlier post
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slcliffdiver
Oct 26, 2002, 9:00 PM
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After you add the clove hitches it isn't self equalizing anymore (though most of the time I'd prefer no extension to self equalization).
Edit: BTW thanks for the cool link and cool looking knot I'll have to play with it.
It however possible to drastically reduce possible extension for the likely range load on the anchors most of the time and still have equalization.
It's easy to test the lowest amount of extension you can have for any range of angles of pull you want and a given anchor configuration. You just slide the biner around the range you want and if you wanted to take the time with certain configuration you could put a knot just on either side and the distance between the knots is the least possible extension you can guaranty for that system.
I'm not saying this is the best practice most of the time it just shows minimum possible extension with self equalization and every once in a while comes in useful equalizing a couple of pieces.
Peace
David
[ This Message was edited by: slcliffdiver on 2002-10-26 14:26 ]
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punk
Oct 26, 2002, 11:06 PM
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Ok,
The way to do it is to adjust it to the anticipated pull direction in the self equalizing manner once u set is then apply the clove hitch at the biner and if u need more adjustments the apply them and readjust the clove accordingly …Yes it is not auto adjust knot but it is very close second without the potentially harmful shock load
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tradguy
Oct 28, 2002, 7:43 PM
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Ok, so this weekend I was out at the Red River Gorge and climbed a trad route that had 3 anchor bolts on top. As a test, I tied the "self-equalizing" figure 8 that we've been discussion (as shown on the left in jstreet's photo, but clipping all 3 points rather than just 2). I then weighted the system with my body weight, and brought up my second. It was easy to tie and easy to adjust originally, but once weighted, the tightness of the knot on the loops held them in place, preventing any re-equalization when the angles were changed. With a strong enough force at an off angle, the rope might shift through the knot, but it seemed to me that greater force would just tighten the knot down more, and prevent any slippage. This was all done using my friends Maxim rope, which has some sort of special tweed finish to the sheath that gives it a very smooth (almost slick) feel, so if it didn't slide with that rope, I don't think it would slide with any.
After the little test, it seems to me that it is a reasonable knot to use for a quick setup with 3 anchor points. However, I would still prefer the "bunny ears" that I pointed out at the beginning of this thread for a 2 point anchor.
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coclimber26
Oct 31, 2002, 11:24 PM
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The version that I know is tying a figure 8 with a large bite(1 foot). after you have an 8 then feed the bite back through the lower part of the 8. You should have 3 loops now. You can attach your pro to these loops and when you move your anchor point left and right it should self equalize..
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tradguy
Nov 1, 2002, 1:31 PM
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Quote:Tradguy, what route at RRG?
Specifically, this was done on Party Time, a 140' 5.7 trad route on the right end of The Fortress. Really cool route, by the way.
Quote:And since we're on the subject, but unfortunately off-topic, why are so many routes at the Red considered X?
I guess I hadn't really noticed a high concentration of X's, but there are plenty of R's, which I attribute to the fact that many of the trad or hybrid routes have some face sections that don't take pro and lack bolts. Cool climbs, but can be intimidating. A prime example is American Wall (also on the Fortress) - it's only rated 5.3, but it's scary as hell on lead near the beginning.
Quote:Back on-topic: where did you belay from? Off your harness, or off the knot? I tied a directional figure 8 in the rope tail that hung down to my second, about 4" below the "self-equalizing" figure 8 that was clipped to the anchors, and belayed off that using a reverso. See my link previously in this thread for a picture (upside down - I tied it for downward pull) and info on the directional figure 8. Or click HERE.
[ This Message was edited by: tradguy on 2002-11-01 05:37 ]
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