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Mike805
Mar 21, 2008, 4:03 PM
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In reply to: This is a recreational site. Its a place where climbers come to bullshit with other climbers. Making it into a *resource site*, making it ALL ABOUT BEING a resource site, is wrong imo.
But this IS ALREADY a resource site. I can check out routes, I can see gear reviews, I can buy used gear from the classified's, I can look up partners in my area, I can check out photo's and video's of fellow climbers, etc. Just because you use it as a place to bullshit, and with 10,000+ posts it looks like you bullshit alot, doesn't mean everyone does...I don't. The internet is one big resource so I don't see your point at all.
Thanks for your opinion.
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dingus
Mar 21, 2008, 4:05 PM
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Mike805 wrote: The internet is one big resource so I don't see your point at all.
Start your Forum of the Dead and do a few analysis threads. You will see what I mean soon enough.
G'day.
DMT
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drljefe
Mar 21, 2008, 4:36 PM
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Although I think that Accidents in North American Mountaineering pretty much has the bases covered, I do think a comprehensive, online database would be educational and revealing. Just not on this site. Lets let the dead rest with some dignity. We sure did want to know exactly what happened to Hersey, Skinner, Lowe, Reardon and countless others over the years...
On a side note- I have a book titled Death in the Canyon which lists every single fatality ever recorded in the Grand Canyon. The stories and reports are divided into catagories like 'death from falling from the rim', 'falling in the river', 'plane crashes' and 'suicide'. It makes for great quick reads, but probably isn't that helpful for accident prevention. My favorite stories are the string of "copy-cat" suicides after the movie Thelma and Louise was released.
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angry
Mar 21, 2008, 5:07 PM
Post #29 of 51
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Jesus Christ Mike!!, you are goddamn unlikeable.
Seriously, I want to hit you. You understand so little of the oral history of this sport it makes me sick. How long have you been climbing? 3 years?
People who've been around a while don't want the forum you asked for because we're afraid people like you will speak up.
We have the I&A forum, In Memory of, and we have the lab forum. It's all there already. Are you asking permission to compile it?
No-one cares if you make a morbid spreadsheet. We just don't want your opinion.
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drljefe
Mar 21, 2008, 5:17 PM
Post #30 of 51
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Database good, forum bad.
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subantz
Mar 21, 2008, 5:18 PM
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billcoe_
Mar 21, 2008, 6:02 PM
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subantz wrote: Why not keep records of deaths it could be helpful later. Say when a crag gets closed because climbing is dangerous. unless you show them otherwise we run the risk of possibly having places shut down. Because lawyers and others only see us when we are in the news.
Are you the anti-climber? Screw the lawyers, if you want them, they're all over every place else already - go take up knitting for christ sake, keep them out. I pays me money, I takes me chances.
I'm with the tribe on this one. NO.
This info is played out much better and throughly already in Accidents in North America, just go buy a copy.
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Mike805
Mar 21, 2008, 6:11 PM
Post #33 of 51
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angry wrote: Jesus Christ Mike!!, you are goddamn unlikeable. Seriously, I want to hit you. You understand so little of the oral history of this sport it makes me sick. How long have you been climbing? 3 years?
I've been climbing for 3-6 months so obviously I know less than little of the "oral" history of this sport but that's my whole point, I want to learn more about preventing an accident and feel like learning from other's mistakes in the past is an excellent way of doing that. I don't know where to look, so I asked....
...and I don't see what triggered the "internet tough guy syndrome" but if you really want to hit me, get ahold of me next time your around Santa Barbara, Ca and I'll be glad to meet you. I'll give you my address via PM if you want. I'm a much better fighter in person than over the internet.
...and my initial question was for a "database" not a "forum". Sorry for it getting way off base but I just want to learn from others, not myself. Thanks for the info on the book, I'll check it out. I'll now slowly back away from the elitist, traditionalist tribe and hope that I don't get attacked by a bunch of skinny granola heads at the crag this weekend.
Peace.
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majid_sabet
Mar 21, 2008, 6:15 PM
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Mike
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Mar 21, 2008, 9:49 PM)
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drljefe
Mar 21, 2008, 6:20 PM
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DING DING! In this corner we have angry, large cam weilding desert hardman. In the other corner we have Sta. Barbara Mike, the curious noob. Lets get ready to ruuuuuumble! Mike,you could just go to Joshua Tree this weekend and learn from other peoples mistakes, or you could challenge angry and become a statistic in an online death database.
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dingus
Mar 21, 2008, 6:21 PM
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Mike805 wrote: I'll now slowly back away from the elitist, traditionalist tribe and hope that I don't get attacked by a bunch of skinny granola heads at the crag this weekend. Peace.
They will pummel you with hexes! Be afraid!
Welcome to the tribe by the way. Ya gets beat into this gang and ya gets beat out.
One famous climber death tale.... a guy back in the early 60s was trying to rap into the Lost Arrow Notch, lost control and fell to his death. His body wedged into the notch behind the spire.
This was in the infancy of big wall climbing in Yosemite. SAR didn't exist.
Out of deference to the body, the park service closed access to the Lost Arrow. They imposed a moratorium on doing the route for 1 year.
Roper and Chouinard were the first climbers to get back in the route. Roper is the author of the early Yosemite and High Sierra guide books and Chouindard founded Patagonia and Black Diamond. Elders of our tribe in other words.
So our elders repeated Salathe's great chimney climb up the Lost Arrow and arrived at the notch. The last lead to the notch was done, I forget who went first. Doesn't matter really.
They didn't know what to expect, what they would find, what with a year old dead body there. The leader arrived and then silence. The belayer calls up.... 'Well?'
Long silence and then,
"His goddamn jacket doesn't fit me!"
Such are our oral traditions. This story is best told over a warm fire with cold brews in hand.
Cheers mike
DMT
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angry
Mar 21, 2008, 6:33 PM
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Mike, if I wanted to hurt you, I'd ask you to follow me for a day. I'm not threatening you, merely pointing out that you need a good smack upside the head (with a brick).
Why should the rules of the game change? When I learned to climb, I learned what to do and what not to do from those who learned what to do and what not to do from those who learned what to do and what not to from those who learned what to do and what not to do dating all the way back to Edward Whymper.
Anything not directly learned from more experienced climbers I learned through trial and error, the exact same way all those before me learned.
At 6 months I knew what gravity was, that a fall from height would kill me, and that I needed to take steps to avoid that fall from height. I also knew that I had to count on myself because I'm the one on the line.
Over the years I've seen friends get hurt, beginners have bad experiences and quit, and really dumb shit that luckily didn't cause an accident. This is how it should be.
To unify our sport (and this is the broader spectrum of what you're talking about) is to kill our sport.
It makes my physically ill to think that in my lifetime people will be paid to establish safe routes, that climbing will become a pay per use (ala Downhill Skiing) activity, and the precautions we take are dictated consensus of accident research.
I respect that you don't want to die. Staying alive is possible without killing climbing.
At 6 months, I don't expect you to understand. Pitch your idea again in a decade.
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Johnny_Fang
Mar 21, 2008, 6:49 PM
Post #38 of 51
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we need an online database of climbers who never pay for the damn beer. we could examine how that correlates with drum playing.
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jt512
Mar 21, 2008, 7:29 PM
Post #39 of 51
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Mike805 wrote: angry wrote: Jesus Christ Mike!!, you are goddamn unlikeable. Seriously, I want to hit you. You understand so little of the oral history of this sport it makes me sick. How long have you been climbing? 3 years? I've been climbing for 3-6 months so obviously I know less than little of the "oral" history of this sport but that's my whole point, I want to learn more about preventing an accident ...
Then do the following:- Read everything you can on climbing, including
- How to Rock Climb (John Long)
- Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills
- Climbing Anchors (Long/Gaines)
- Self-Rescue (Fasulo)
- Accidents in North American Mountaineering
- Climbing: From Gym to Crag (Lewis/Cauthorn)
- The chapter "Staying Alive" (John Dill) in Yosemite Climbs: Free Climbs (Reid)
- Subscribe to Climbing Magazine and Rock and Ice
- Search the Injuries and Accidents forum of this website
- Find a safe, experienced mentor
- Take a basic multiday Introduction to Climbing seminar from a reputable climbing schhol
- Invest in a few days of private instruction from a certified guide
- Take your time learning. If you're interested in traditional climbing, start out on dead easy routes, and work your way up the grades gradually.
The skill sets needed to become a safe climber are both broader and deeper than those needed to become a safe skydiver. Analyzing a fatality database won't help you one iota toward mastering those skills.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 21, 2008, 7:35 PM)
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drljefe
Mar 21, 2008, 7:36 PM
Post #40 of 51
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WORD.
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hugepedro
Mar 21, 2008, 8:16 PM
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The point I was trying to make very succinctly on the first page, but apparently failed, is this.
How many accidents where someone rapped off the ends of their ropes do I need to read about before I realize that I should make sure not to rap off the ends of my ropes? Answer: 1.
How many deaths caused by falling rock do I need to read about before I realize that I should be wary of situations where falling rock is possible? Answer: 1.
You get the drift.
Now you may be slow on the uptake and require reading about multiple deaths from the same cause before you start to pay attention to that cause, if so then I’d suggest you get out of this game while you still have your health. But I see no reason why we need a DB of 50 deaths all due to the same cause, other than to satisfy morbid curiosity.
All possible and knowable causes of death are already known and documented. If and when any new causes present themselves they as well are documented, and discussed ad nauseam on the internet. Thus my statement that if you don’t know this information then you aren’t trying very hard.
And this is the basis for my statement that I already know every thing I need to know about climbing accidents, this shit has already been analyzed, and documented, and the collective wisdom stored in the written climbing lore (witness the list Jay posted above as example).
After climbing only 3-6 months the reason you don’t know shit is because you’ve only been climbing 3-6 months. I didn’t know shit either with only 6 months under my belt – I learned. And that is what you have ahead of you – to learn. And if you follow Jay’s advice above, and you put in the time and effort to learn, you will find that you have learned everything this death database could have taught you, plus a whole lot more. You will discover that (as other people here who have been through the learning process are trying to tell you) a death database was completely unnecessary for your process of learning, and that it would be redundant and merely a fraction of what you need to learn anyway.
So STFU n00b!!!!111
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drljefe
Mar 21, 2008, 8:35 PM
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I agree with what you said about a database being unnecessary for the noob's learning process...but there IS still 'morbid' curiosity, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. You're a mountaineer, do you read AINAM? If so, for what reason- is it 'morbid'? Just curious.
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irregularpanda
Mar 21, 2008, 9:28 PM
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dingus wrote: Mike805 wrote: The internet is one big resource so I don't see your point at all. Start your Forum of the Dead and do a few analysis threads. You will see what I mean soon enough. G'day. DMT
Yes he will. Especially of the majid variety.......
Speaking of trolling experts on accident mis-analysis now I'm curious what the bones are in the liver.
Anybody know the answer to that, liver bones, anyone?
Come one, its a major organ, it must have bones, right?
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majid_sabet
Mar 21, 2008, 9:30 PM
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binrat wrote: majid_sabet wrote: If you do not listen to me, you will be BBQ in RC by the end of next week. And thats worthy for a sig line
in the history of RC, Mike is the only person who ever wanted to learn about climbing by opening the coffin first.
This is like doing rock climbing in reverse
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majid_sabet
Mar 21, 2008, 9:36 PM
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irregularpanda wrote: dingus wrote: Mike805 wrote: The internet is one big resource so I don't see your point at all. Start your Forum of the Dead and do a few analysis threads. You will see what I mean soon enough. G'day. DMT Yes he will. Especially of the majid variety....... Speaking of trolling experts on accident mis-analysis now I'm curious what the bones are in the liver. Anybody know the answer to that, liver bones, anyone? Come one, its a major organ, it must have bones, right?
That is when the femur exits from a liver after a 500 feet fall. Seen one of these before?
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irregularpanda
Mar 21, 2008, 9:39 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: That is when the femur exits from a liver after a 500 feet fall. Seen one of these before?
All talk, no pictures. remember majid, sharing is caring.
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hugepedro
Mar 21, 2008, 11:05 PM
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drljefe wrote: I agree with what you said about a database being unnecessary for the noob's learning process...but there IS still 'morbid' curiosity, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. You're a mountaineer, do you read AINAM? If so, for what reason- is it 'morbid'? Just curious.
Been a quite few years since I read one, and the reason I did read them was to learn (which was my point, information is readily available without a database). And ANAM isn't a database of every accident, they distill it down to a set that they think is useful - information that can then get incorporated into the climbing lore of dos and don'ts. Like a few years ago when suddenly there was a large number of accidents involving belayer's dropping their climbers, they didn't give many actual reports of those accidents, but they did say, hey there are lots of these occuring, possibly due to large numbers of climbers moving from the gym to the rock, so be careful if you're making that transition.
Personally I think that sort of REAL accident analysis, by experts, that is distilled into useful information and trends identified, etc., is what is needed (and already exists), rather than the sort of database being suggested here.
And like others I think RC.com would be a totally inappropriate place for such a database. Go have a look at cascadeclimbers.com, every time there is a big rescue/accident in the Cascades that gets media attention the thread about it turns into a major circus, with media people, non-climbers, and just plain idiots coming out of the woodwork and posting stuff about which they know absolutely nothing. It's disgusting.
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EvilMonkey
Mar 21, 2008, 11:12 PM
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In reply to: I would like to know how most people die in this sport; whether it's from gear failure (what part of the gear?), human error, natural occurences, weather problems, etc...
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subantz
Sep 4, 2010, 4:13 AM
Post #50 of 51
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Bump suckers
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