|
|
|
|
fresh
Mar 25, 2008, 11:05 PM
Post #1 of 52
(16509 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 7, 2007
Posts: 1199
|
I'm looking to buy my first ice tools. My goals include to climb tough and miserable alpine routes. What I know of alpine climbing is limited, but I gleaned a few essentials on tools from mark twight's extreme alpinism.
1. light is right
2. small grip is.. ripe?
3. pick changeability is a must.
based on this, I really like the petzl aztarex. it's b-rated, though, and I don't know if it will accept a 4mm pick. Everything else about it I like--the weight, and the size of the shaft, primarily.
Also, seeing as these will be my first tools, I will be doing mucho waterfall climbing before venturing onto the eigers of the world. So perhaps it will be better to get tools more suited to that, like quarks. However I'm not interested in buying any tools that I can't take on light, fast, miserable trips, and quarks seem to be too heavy for serious alpine adventures. though perhaps I am mistaken! this is why I'm posting. hit me with it.
|
|
|
|
|
Alpine07
Mar 25, 2008, 11:28 PM
Post #2 of 52
(16499 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 1, 2007
Posts: 842
|
The Aztarex is a pretty nice tool, but I think that it will end up holding you back while on vertical stuff. Seems like the hands would get pretty tired without any kind of grip on the shaft, even though it does have the "leashless fang. BD Cobra is where its at. With they carbon fiber shaft, its nice and light. You could also look at the Camp Alpax, which is an all around sort of tool that will work well on ice and snow. I would suggest getting out on the ice with some friends that have tools, try out as many different ones as possible, then decide what you want. And also, I wouldnt worry too much about the weight, unless its real heavy, I would rather carry a little extra than have a tool that I dont like. Good Luck!
|
|
|
|
|
Crimsonghost
Mar 26, 2008, 10:19 AM
Post #3 of 52
(16454 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 30, 2007
Posts: 36
|
Extreme alpinism is an awesome book, but some of the information on equipment is a bit dated. The Aztarex is pretty nice, but also look at the Grivel Matrix Light. I've got a set of these and they're awesome - I've got sliders on them so I can use them leashless with a lanyard system. They work perfectly for alpine climbs where weight is an issue, although I use Taakoons for ice and mixed climbing as they are a bit beefier.
|
|
|
|
|
robbovius
Mar 26, 2008, 12:24 PM
Post #4 of 52
(16436 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Posts: 8406
|
Alpine07 wrote: You could also look at the Camp Alpax, which is an all around sort of tool that will work well on ice and snow. !
I bought my first tools recently too, and chose the CAMP Alpax becasue it looked like a good tool for both alpine and vertical ice. I got one with a hammer, (which has a reverse-curved pick) and one with an Adze (with a more tradionally curved pick though more agressively pointed than a traditional piolet alpine axe) both have 57 cm handles
yesterday I took them out for the first time and was able to get good sticks with both, as long as I swung them hard enough. if anything, they are lighter than optimal for easy single swing sticks. I did hang from them at one point though - totally feet off - from the hacked up column to the left of the "window". they come with nice leashes that have an easy-to-use elactic tightening setup. the leashes on mine were adjusted correctly from the factory.
the leashes slide up the handle pretty easily when you switch to "cane" mode (which I did when walking up to the bottoms of some of the climbs)
Even better, they were $80 each from backcountry.com.
they will definitely climb vert, and get good sticks with the proper effort. I wouldnt get shorter handles though, since the heads are so light. for a given head weight, a longer handle accelerates the head more thru the arc of the swing, making for a harder hit.
I foudn my best sticks happened with a good hard swing, ending with a slight downaward pull just as the pick hit the ice..
if I was to make the purchase again, I'd probably buy two Alpax hammers just for the re-curved pick. sometimes the adze pick was hard to get back out.
both picks hook features nicely.
the bend in the shaft isn't quite enough to keep you from punching the ice on most swings.
I've also got a traditional Piolet (an SMC Himalayan) that I got off ebay, which I used for the alipine-y hike in, and the glissade out.
(This post was edited by robbovius on Mar 26, 2008, 12:33 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
wormly81
Mar 26, 2008, 1:35 PM
Post #5 of 52
(16414 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2004
Posts: 280
|
I climbed with the Aztar's for my first 100 pitches of water ice here in northeast. It was not until I started leading vertical ice that I changed over to a pair of quarks. The Aztar's are lighter quarks and mine did not have the pinky rest (I was never able to set up the leashes to feel/work good). Since they are lighter the pick has more tendency to deflect when you are on hard (as opposed to soft) ice and you are tired and swinging less accurately. When I moved over to the quarks they came with leashes that I used for a single pitch and have been climbing leashless since. If I were to go alpine climbing I would go with my Aztar's rather than the quarks with leashes due to the simplicity of the leash. Also, the performance tradeoff is really not all too significant compared to the weight savings.
Best advice, troll the net for someone with a pair of axes your thinkin of buying and go test them out on some ice. You cant really be informed about an axe until you swing it.
Best,
Jeff
|
|
|
|
|
robbovius
Mar 26, 2008, 1:53 PM
Post #6 of 52
(16403 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Posts: 8406
|
wormly81 wrote: Since they are lighter the pick has more tendency to deflect when you are on hard (as opposed to soft) ice and you are tired and swinging less accurately. Best, Jeff
yup, that was exactly my experience with the Alpaxes yesterday...
|
|
|
|
|
crackers
Mar 26, 2008, 3:27 PM
Post #7 of 52
(16372 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 20, 2005
Posts: 416
|
wormly81 wrote: Best advice, troll the net for someone with a pair of axes your thinkin of buying and go test them out on some ice. You cant really be informed about an axe until you swing it.
I couldn't agree more. I barely get out these days, but on my day out this year, I swung Matrix Techs. Even though I'd had them around the shop for a long time, I couldn't believe how well they swung.
One other thing to think about, just to make it more confusing, is that older Grivel picks seemed to be designed so their picks to bend before they break. BD and Petzl seem to be after the picks breaking before they bend. A lot of folks I know go through a pick or two a season with older Grivel tools climbing a lot. I think the jury is still out with the new Grivel Monster picks, they seem a lot more resilient...
|
|
|
|
|
builttospill
Mar 29, 2008, 2:07 AM
Post #8 of 52
(16221 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2004
Posts: 814
|
I don't understand why people rule out tools like the Quarks for alpine stuff. I plunge mine in snow all the time and they work great. Hell, they plunge a little better than my old straight shaft Chouinard tools even with the pinky rest.
You can always do what Steve House and Vince Anderson did on Nanga Parbat (and others before and since probably) and use something like the grivel tools with the slider to allow plunging.
But honestly, when I climb alpine ice or even steep hard snow, I take the quarks. My vote would be for something similar to that, or maybe slightly less aggressively curved. Why use subpar tools for climbing waterfall ice when you'll end up wanting better tools for the tough and miserable alpine routes you aspire to anyway?
|
|
|
|
|
mtnkid85
Apr 1, 2008, 12:18 AM
Post #9 of 52
(16031 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 221
|
I am looking for a set of tools for similiar purpose. Ultimatly alpine tools but learning on waterfall ice. So I will add to this thread rather than starting another. I too really like the Aztarex but from what I have been reading its main disadvantage is on hard/steep ice because of its weight, or lack there of. Correct?
And someone in this thread also mentioned the lack of a grip.
After looking at the tool it would not be difficult for me to build a small metal weight that could be clamped onto the shaft near the head to increase its weight slightly for harder/steep ice, but still be easily removed to regain the light weight for Alpine duty. Do you guys think this would remedy the Aztarexs lack of steep ice prowness? Or would it simply mess up the feel of the tool?
As for the lack of a grip why not simply add a few wraps of roadbike grip tape to the shaft?
thanks guys.
|
|
|
|
|
gargrantuan
Apr 1, 2008, 2:46 AM
Post #10 of 52
(16011 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2005
Posts: 182
|
this topic has really been done to death on here, so if you are really interested in hearing people's opinions just search for some of the old threads.
-aztars/aztarex are pretty much a women's/very small man's tool for anything fun in the alpine or WI. they lack overall weight and head weight so getting a good, solid stick in hard, old, alpine ice isn't easy or as satisfying (in my experience). they aren't too good on steep ice, though to be fair, my gf loves them so much that i don't get to play with them very much. furthermore, if you've not climbed with a tool and you're already thinking of mod-ing it, then it isn't the right tool for you.
-quarks, vipers, cobras, grivels and most other WI tools are fine for about 95% of the alpine climbing you (or most of us) will be doing. the pommels, pinky guards, fangs et al. do not prevent the tool from plunging and if it is, then chances are you can swing the tool and use it properly.
-the old model of cobra (without the fang) should be available used for cheap, locally or online, as they are almost a year out of production. they'll serve you better than a pair of cheap "alpine" tools will. the extra weight means more 'thunk' which is better on both WI and AI.
-save yourself the headache of needing to buy new tools after one season because you didn't buy decent ones to start with.
(This post was edited by gargrantuan on Apr 1, 2008, 2:50 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
tradklime
Apr 1, 2008, 7:12 PM
Post #11 of 52
(15934 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2002
Posts: 1235
|
http://www.rockclimbing.com/gear/Detailed/1382.html
Perfect for what you are interested in.
The modern clearance shafts are a serious compromise for alpine applications. By moving the bend lower on the shaft you have a nice stright section to grab for hammering pins and they are much better to self arrest with. Ability to plunge is similar to other options mentioned above.
|
|
|
|
|
gargrantuan
Apr 2, 2008, 4:09 AM
Post #12 of 52
(15884 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2005
Posts: 182
|
a serious compromise for hammering pins? i have placed and removed pins with both quarks and cobras and while it is a little annoying i certainly wouldn't say it was a "serious compromise." for self arresting? that is due to the reverse curved picks, not the bent shaft. besides my alpine tools are primarily for climbing which takes priority over plunge-ability, arresting (just don't fall!), or pin placing.
to be honest most alpine climbers i know don't even own a mountaineering axe because routes that aren't steep enough to do with ice tools aren't worth doing. going for a long walk up hill isn't climbing, it's hiking.
|
|
|
|
|
fool
Apr 3, 2008, 1:03 PM
Post #13 of 52
(15744 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 14, 2006
Posts: 20
|
Robbovius: Sorry for the OT, but is that picture up in NH, about an hour north of Hanover? I think I was climbing there a few weeks ago, but I forgot the name.
|
|
|
|
|
vterinme
Apr 4, 2008, 1:53 AM
Post #14 of 52
(15683 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 3, 2007
Posts: 57
|
It's Kinsman Notch, and a bit more than an hour north of Hanover (unless you have a better road than I know).
I recently purchased the BD Vipers and really love them. Piolet Cane is not a problem if you give the tools a chance. They work very well for steep ice. you can do either leashed or unleashed, though I'm turning into a leashless person due to the variety of movements possible. They are light enough, and if you are truly thinking one day you might try the gnarly alpine routes, the previous stated crap will be sub par, IMHOP. Buy a tool you'll use now regardless of what you think you might get into, you can always buy another set or tool to go on some far fetched trip years down the road.
|
|
|
|
|
tradklime
Apr 9, 2008, 6:29 PM
Post #15 of 52
(15487 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2002
Posts: 1235
|
The Mantas climb better than anything else as well, in my opinion. The only time I don't like them is when having the clearance bend near the head is an advantage. Buldges, hacked out ice, funky formations, etc, and even then it's only a minor issue and certainly not very common in the alpine environment.
Re: self arrest, ymmv
|
|
|
|
|
landongw
May 4, 2008, 6:05 AM
Post #16 of 52
(15178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 2, 2004
Posts: 114
|
Gargantuan, your stated profile says you lead 5.1 and follow 5.2, and then that you lead only WI1/AI1 and follow up to WI2.
how is it that you figure you are qualified to give advice on ice tools when you state that you only have experience in terrain where tools aren't even really required?
|
|
|
|
|
gargrantuan
May 6, 2008, 10:09 PM
Post #18 of 52
(15014 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2005
Posts: 182
|
landongw wrote: Gargantuan, your stated profile says you lead 5.1 and follow 5.2, and then that you lead only WI1/AI1 and follow up to WI2. how is it that you figure you are qualified to give advice on ice tools when you state that you only have experience in terrain where tools aren't even really required?
my stated profile reads as such because i think the idea of stating your lead and following abilities on the internet is a waste of time. would you believe my opinion more if i had stated that i lead WI7 and follow WI9? or how about if i had been giving my opinion on ice tools but stated that i was leading 5.14 sport climbs with no mention of ice?
i figure that i am qualified to give advice on ice tools because i use them, a lot. i also figured that people would be able to read into my posts enough to know that my opinion comes from my experience (which contrary to my stated profile is broader than WI2).
|
|
|
|
|
landongw
May 8, 2008, 10:09 PM
Post #19 of 52
(14918 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 2, 2004
Posts: 114
|
Sorry for the pissing all, but i think you're full of it gargantuan. Because, if it was a "waste of time" you wouldn't have put anything there, and it would appear blank. For example, my ascent log is blank, and states nothing, because I didn't feel like spending the time. You already took the time to enter those values, your rationale makes no sense.
i've seen people with crampons and tools out on snowy trails, sloped at less than 30 degrees. I think you're one of those people based on what you say in your profile and posts.
Personally, i am looking at ice tools for the first time too. and would appreciate valid advice from people who actually know from experience. spouting posers confuse the issue and dramatically depreciate the value of this site as an information resource.
|
|
|
|
|
gargrantuan
May 9, 2008, 10:05 PM
Post #20 of 52
(14855 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2005
Posts: 182
|
a 'waste of time' is a relative thing, landon.
i have the time to fill out numerical values for my profile, but being honest about my how hard i lead rock, ice, and mixed so some dipshit on the internet can judge how credible my responses are remains a 'waste of time.' the rationale behind this is simple, if you had some reasonable idea about climbing ice, then you'd know that everything i said about those tools is true (especially the part about the using the search feature and 'ice tool reviews' being done to death on here).
i am happy that you think i am a trail stomping punter because that was the point of entering those values into my profile. you fell for it and you're making yourself look like more of an ass by insulting me and assuming that i am some 'spouting poser.'
don't take my advice, buy some shitty tools, and come back when you've actually starting ice climbing with them. perhaps then you'll realize that the content of one's post matters far more than the numbers in their profile. the 'valid advice from people who actually know from experience' is right here on rc.com, all you have to do is pull your head from your ass and read carefully.
|
|
|
|
|
harpo_the_climber
Jun 20, 2008, 6:02 PM
Post #21 of 52
(14404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 106
|
Anyone use Black Diamond Venom Ice Axes? Can you comment on their uses and limitations?
Rock and Ice did a review a couple of years ago and says they are light (17oz) but are well balanced and swing well.
Like the original poster, I am looking for a tool to use in the mountains primarily, but I might also use them on waterfall ice.
Or will they be too much of a compromise and should I get something like the old style Cobra?
|
|
|
|
|
fresh
Jun 20, 2008, 8:37 PM
Post #22 of 52
(14383 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 7, 2007
Posts: 1199
|
thanks for the replies, guys. minus the flame war.
I've all but decided to get petzl quarks. I have two concerns which might reveal my n00bness but here goes.
1. the pinky rest seems to interfere with plunging. from what I've heard it isn't an issue in most snow types, but how easy is it to remove? I'm guessing it's not worth it to adjust it in the middle of a cold, miserable alpine climb. I love the grivel slider, but I believe that can only be used on grivel tools, and not even on all grivel tools at that.
2. leashless climbing. if I want to use umbilical cords, where do they clip in? I would guess the bottom but it looks like the pinky rest gets in the way. thoughts?
thanks again.
|
|
|
|
|
gargrantuan
Jun 22, 2008, 7:51 PM
Post #23 of 52
(14267 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2005
Posts: 182
|
good choice on the quarks, fresh! they are awesome tools.
the pinky rest is removable but you're right, you'd never stop to change it mid-route. i really think you should just leave it on there and plunge it with reckless abandon. if the snow is too hard to plunge the pinky rest through then 9 times out of 10 you can use the tool normally. PLUNGING SHOULD NOT BE A FACTOR WHEN BUYING A TECHNICAL ICE TOOL. the pinky grip is great and you'll never really find the need to remove it. just trust.
you'll have to attach a couple of small cord loops through the holes in the spikes on the bottom of the shaft to set them up for umbilicals. they don't really get in the way so you can set that up and leave them on there all the time.
you may also want to look at getting the BD android leashes, i found the petzl leashes suck serious balls.
|
|
|
|
|
fresh
Jun 23, 2008, 1:13 PM
Post #24 of 52
(14194 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 7, 2007
Posts: 1199
|
gargantuan,
thanks for the tips. I'm still making a decision--I was pretty psyched for the quarks, but I played with the cobras this weekend and now I'm on the fence again. the salesguy at REI recommended the same thing for the quarks, tying a cord through the bottom to clip in to. (but he also told me I'd want one curved technical tool and one straight-shaft tool for plunging into snow, so I wasn't sure how to take his advice  .) how does a cord like that do after being plunged in snow over and over? I'm guessing fine?
the cobras honestly feel better to me than the quarks. but them being carbon fiber makes me wonder a bit. I know that they're pretty time-tested but it seems like they wouldn't be quite as stout for hard climbing. am I crazy? my tools just can't have any chance of breaking.
|
|
|
|
|
mattb1921
Jun 23, 2008, 7:16 PM
Post #25 of 52
(14143 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 30, 2006
Posts: 144
|
fresh wrote: gargantuan, the cobras honestly feel better to me than the quarks. but them being carbon fiber makes me wonder a bit. I know that they're pretty time-tested but it seems like they wouldn't be quite as stout for hard climbing. am I crazy? my tools just can't have any chance of breaking.
You are crazy. You can put those new cobras in a crack and cam the hell out of them and not worry. I don't think that the tool was developed for light use. As for the cord and how it will hold up. It should be fine for long trips. You might have to replace it a few times a year but cord is very cheap.
It seems like the REI guy put a new thought in your head about the two different tools. You have to go with what you feel comfortable with. A straight shafted tool can be nice due to the longer length but not a absolute must have. Get the cobras or quarks and just practice using them. Practice a self arrest with the tool and get used to how to use it. When I am on terrian where I know that I will need a technical tool I always just take two technical tools. I rarely use the mountaineering axe/technical tool combo. I have the new vipers and plunging is not a problem. I can bury the tool no problem for a belay if need be.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
