|
USnavy
Feb 15, 2008, 3:25 PM
Post #1 of 23
(5229 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 6, 2007
Posts: 2667
|
|
|
|
|
|
reg
Feb 15, 2008, 3:58 PM
Post #2 of 23
(5187 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 1560
|
IMHO - i believe it is an infrequent occurrence. some of those are due to user error. solution: put a locker in from time to time esp. before the runout.
|
|
|
|
|
patto
Feb 17, 2008, 12:44 PM
Post #3 of 23
(5125 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 15, 2005
Posts: 1453
|
Infrequent or non existant?
Has anybody actually shown that open gate loading has EVER occured due to gate flutter. Once a caribiner starts to get a little loaded then the gates CAN'T flutter.
I'd be more about gates pressed against rock features causing them to open. But even then the risk is minute.
|
|
|
|
|
microbarn
Feb 17, 2008, 2:06 PM
Post #4 of 23
(5114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 12, 2004
Posts: 5920
|
USnavy wrote: I am constantly reading about how someone claimed they had a biner break on them on a normal sport lead fall from gate flutter. However I have talked to some very experienced climbers and I can’t find anyone who has actually said they have seen a biner break on a fall. So how common is open gate failures on solid gate biners in sport leading? Should I consider upgrading to stronger wiregate biners before my next big wall climb where I will encounter run outs or should I be content with my solid gate biners?
Wiregates are not necessarily stronger. Look at the numbers on the spine to figure out which are strongest. Gate flutter is a different matter.
I can't find the video right now, but there was recently a video of UIAA or AMGA or somebody's testing. They had a ton of equipment tested in the video, but what surprised me was that all the biners shown failed with the gates in the open position. None of the closed gates helped the biners in that video.
I would pay particular attention to the open gate strength for this and other reasons.
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Feb 17, 2008, 2:57 PM
Post #5 of 23
(5094 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
Gates don't 'flutter' on their own. This was a reference to an induced behavior from an early form of Screamer called an 'Air Voyager'. Air Voyagers had rows of separate horizontal bar tacks that tore instead of the continuous vertical bar tacks on today's Screamers. The machine gun-like, staccato tear rythmn of the Air Voyager's individual bar tacks is what induced gate flutter, I and my friends fell on them with a somewhat regular abandon and never had a problem of any kind. So it's not like it happened often even then, but there were some recorded instances of it happening in the 70's so Wild Things stopped making them. I still use a couple of thirty year old ones I have in the anchor setups when I rope solo, but I use a locker with them given it's an anchor.
Does that mean 'flutter' can never happen under any other circumstances out there in the wild? No, there are certainly no shortage of random and / or ill-advised situations which can arise which can open a gate and kill you, but very few which can set a gate to 'fluttering' for any significant period of time or number of repetitions. Like the man said up above - if it's a concern to you use a locker, though I'm not entirely sure how you would know it should be a concern at one spot versus another. Better to just double up on the pro or, in sport, use a locker if you're launching into the void and have any doubts at all.
(This post was edited by healyje on Feb 18, 2008, 11:17 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
noshoesnoshirt
Feb 17, 2008, 3:04 PM
Post #6 of 23
(5084 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 24, 2002
Posts: 440
|
healyje,
Interesting note on the flutter induced by old screamers. I've wondered about flutter for a while. Always thought it would be interesting to attempt to induce flutter with simple rope drag through a 'biner. The test set-up would be relatively simple, but the cost of renting a high speed camera is a bit prohibitive. Do you have any info on flutter studies?
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Feb 17, 2008, 3:30 PM
Post #7 of 23
(5071 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
USnavy wrote: I am constantly reading about how someone claimed they had a biner break on them on a normal sport lead fall from gate flutter. However I have talked to some very experienced climbers and I can’t find anyone who has actually said they have seen a biner break on a fall. So how common is open gate failures on solid gate biners in sport leading? Should I consider upgrading to stronger wiregate biners before my next big wall climb where I will encounter run outs or should I be content with my solid gate biners?
Hang on a sec. You read about it constantly, but have never been spoken to about it, so you think it might be a myth? And to verify it isn't just a myth you want to... what? Read about it some more?
Well, if it helps, yes, open-gate failure can happen. There was a thread just last week in which an RC.com user thought his biners were flawed when one of them broke in a routine sport fall. Turns out it was an open-gate failure. I've seen biners break first hand in controlled falls with the gate blocked from closing all the way.
But then, we're talking about two things, aren't we? One is open-gate failure and the other is gate flutter, which can be a subset of the former. I can't speak specifically about failure from flutter, because I really don't know how common an occurance flutter actually is.
For what it's worth, almost all my biners are wire gate, but that's entirely a weight issue. I didn't buy them to reduce flutter. If you need an answer as to whether or not you should replace your biners, I think it would be a paranoid waste of money.
|
|
|
|
|
ja1484
Feb 17, 2008, 3:34 PM
Post #8 of 23
(5067 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 11, 2006
Posts: 1935
|
Common enough that you should only look at picking up 'biners with 8kN open-gate strength or higher.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Feb 17, 2008, 5:24 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Feb 17, 2008, 4:43 PM
Post #9 of 23
(5039 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
Huh? I usually break 5-6 biners every time I climb. What am I doing wrong?
|
|
|
|
|
onceahardman
Feb 17, 2008, 5:13 PM
Post #10 of 23
(5019 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 3, 2007
Posts: 2493
|
In reply to: . This was a reference to an induced behavior from an early form of Screamer called an 'Air Voyager'.
Hi healyje...I didn't know anybody knew about these. I got an original prototype from John Bouchard in New Hampshire (Wild Things) before they ever hit the market. (Long time ago). Took a pretty good whipper on it, and tore out about half of the bar tacks...Bouchard thought they were still OK as a quickdraw, even if the bartacks were gone. Used non locking biners, no known open-gate fall, and no biner failure. I still have two that I later bought, but I use it only very rarely.
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Feb 17, 2008, 5:15 PM
Post #11 of 23
(5017 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
how about these?
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Feb 17, 2008, 5:44 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
onceahardman
Feb 17, 2008, 5:22 PM
Post #12 of 23
(5009 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 3, 2007
Posts: 2493
|
Majid, maybe you should start a different thread...
"How common is minor axis failure?"...or "How climbers should pay attention?"
Just think of all the arrows you could draw!
or maybe start your own death blog.
In any case, you are off topic. How unusual.
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Feb 17, 2008, 5:48 PM
Post #13 of 23
(4988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
All those broken biners, it looks like a typical day at the sport crag for me.
Should I lose weight?
|
|
|
|
|
raingod
Feb 17, 2008, 6:02 PM
Post #14 of 23
(4976 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2003
Posts: 118
|
angry wrote: All those broken biners, it looks like a typical day at the sport crag for me. Should I lose weight?
No it's obvious you must have gotten one biner with micrfractures and it contaminated the rest....
|
|
|
|
|
cologman
Feb 17, 2008, 6:07 PM
Post #15 of 23
(4974 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 29, 2002
Posts: 581
|
I'm sitting here looking at a wire gate that is similar in appearance to the first of Majid's images. It is a constant reminder to me of the need for vigilance. I decked from about 25' on that biner failure. The resulting injuries although not life threatening were not fun. All indications are of an open gate failure or cross loading situation. While I have always been pretty vigilant and in fact remember being particularly circumspect about this clip shit happens. After all there is a reason for the disclaimer on just about everything climbing related you buy. The bottom line to reduce open gate failure or other signifcant risks inherent in climbing QUIT CLIMBING it leaves the crags more open to the rest of us .
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Feb 17, 2008, 6:19 PM
Post #16 of 23
(4965 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
Tangent....
I have a steel locking oval. It's 23kn major, 7kn minor, and 8kn open gate. In other words it's no stronger than an aluminum biner.
One has to wonder though, due to the steel how much more of a safety margin, room for error, and abuse does this biner have.
Any ideas?
|
|
|
|
|
microbarn
Feb 17, 2008, 6:42 PM
Post #17 of 23
(4954 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 12, 2004
Posts: 5920
|
angry wrote: Tangent.... I have a steel locking oval. It's 23kn major, 7kn minor, and 8kn open gate. In other words it's no stronger than an aluminum biner. One has to wonder though, due to the steel how much more of a safety margin, room for error, and abuse does this biner have. Any ideas?
If you want to nitpick....
You could argue the steel has less safety margin because steel corrosion facilitates more corrosion. Aluminum corrosion is self sealing and protects the metal underneath.
You could also argue the steel biner has a larger safety margin because of its better behavior under cyclic loading.
Often steel resists wear such as from top roping better, but it depends on the alloy.
All told these are small arguments. It is reasonable to just assume it has the same safety margin.
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Feb 17, 2008, 6:48 PM
Post #18 of 23
(4945 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
Kinda how I view it.
I use it on my grigri when rope soloing (yer all gonna die!!!) and I use it as a belay biner in the desert where the sandy ropes seem to put a lot of undue wear on biners.
It might be more able to stand up to torques and stuff like that that biners aren't even tested for.
|
|
|
|
|
microbarn
Feb 17, 2008, 10:08 PM
Post #19 of 23
(4892 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 12, 2004
Posts: 5920
|
angry wrote: It might be more able to stand up to torques and stuff like that that biners aren't even tested for.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Feb 17, 2008, 11:25 PM
Post #20 of 23
(4861 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
USnavy wrote: I am constantly reading about how someone claimed they had a biner break on them on a normal sport lead fall from gate flutter. However I have talked to some very experienced climbers and I can’t find anyone who has actually said they have seen a biner break on a fall. So how common is open gate failures on solid gate biners in sport leading? Should I consider upgrading to stronger wiregate biners before my next big wall climb where I will encounter run outs or should I be content with my solid gate biners?
Before your next big wall climb? What was your last? El Cap?
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
blakester
Mar 24, 2008, 10:05 PM
Post #21 of 23
(4556 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 20, 2004
Posts: 142
|
I saw a BD hotwire biner snap in a short fall (Less than 12 feet) with about 30' of rope out in Squamish. Luckily another piece of gear caught the climber. We weren't sure if the biner's gate was somehow forced open, but I suppose it could have been.
|
|
|
|
|
steady_climbing
Mar 25, 2008, 9:30 PM
Post #22 of 23
(4467 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 16, 2006
Posts: 152
|
jt512 wrote: USnavy wrote: I am constantly reading about how someone claimed they had a biner break on them on a normal sport lead fall from gate flutter. However I have talked to some very experienced climbers and I can’t find anyone who has actually said they have seen a biner break on a fall. So how common is open gate failures on solid gate biners in sport leading? Should I consider upgrading to stronger wiregate biners before my next big wall climb where I will encounter run outs or should I be content with my solid gate biners? Before your next big wall climb? What was your last? El Cap? Jay
CLASSIC
|
|
|
|
|
hafilax
Mar 25, 2008, 11:20 PM
Post #23 of 23
(4436 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 12, 2007
Posts: 3025
|
The theoretical advantage of wire gates is that the gate carries less momentum compared to the spring strength. The usual demonstration is to bang the spine of a biner against your palm. You'll hear a loud click from solid gates and less sound from wire gates. If the biner swings in a fall and comes to a sudden stop from hitting something there is a greater chance that the wire gate will stay closed, in theory at least... I'm not sure it's that big a deal.
If it looks like your biner will hit something in the case of a fall put in some lockers or a pair opposite and opposed. I always carry a double length sling with a pair of lockers just in case if only to ease the lead head.
|
|
|
|
|
|
