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epoch
Moderator
Mar 30, 2008, 2:35 AM
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Yes, let's talk about this new addition to the market. I had the fortunate opportunity to check them out today at EMS. They're on the shelves. This isn't a gear review; however, I'd like to open a discussion... What was nice about it was being able to do a side-by-side comparison of the Master Cam and the strikingly similar CCH Alien. They have similar characteristics. Narrow-ish head, single stem, flexible, made to work in those tight spots. The first thing I noticed was the way that the cam lobes were engaged. It's not a sheath like the Alien but two independant cables from the trigger to a yolk near the head of the cam. The lobes are connected to this yolk via small chord - which is my only concern about wear with these cams. The heads are a full lobe wider, making the Alien still the smallest 4CU on the market. They seem bomber and I'd like to hear from those who've had a chance to use them. The trigger action is smooth and has a nice pull to them. They are super flexible like the Alien, and the cable loop is burlier with a thumb rest similar to the C4 - when I think of Metolius I think of a well engineered product. I may get me two just to see how they are. What say you...
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caughtinside
Mar 30, 2008, 2:41 AM
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yolk. heh heh. That's what I sez.
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tradrenn
Mar 30, 2008, 2:44 AM
Post #3 of 33
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Would you have a chart of sizes/colors ? It would be super nice to have the equivalent of green and yellow aliens in Mastercams. Other then that I can't wait to see them at MEC, I was told second week of April they should be in.
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tradrenn
Mar 30, 2008, 2:50 AM
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Nevermind my question, here is the link for those who would like to know.
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basilisk
Mar 30, 2008, 3:22 AM
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epoch wrote: The heads are a full lobe wider, making the Alien still the smallest 4CU on the market. Arguably! WC Zeros have both beat in smaller sizes. http://www.needlesports.com/acatalog/Mail_Order_Friends___Cams_24.html Check out the charts fr yourself. They don't paste very nicely into the forum
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wmfork
Mar 30, 2008, 4:23 AM
Post #7 of 33
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basilisk wrote: Arguably! WC Zeros have both beat in smaller sizes. True, but the zeros have very narrow lobes. If the lobes were of the same width, aliens (in green and larger sizes) would beat both the zeros and master cam handily. I played around with the master cams in Neptune and was not that impressed. The blue and yellow have very narrow lobes (about the same as blue and red zeros), though with narrower head than the zeros. The zeros, however, have full strength cam stop and flexible stem all the way to the head. Those 2 features seem to be the primary sacrifice for the wider head. No doubt sometimes one just needs narrower head, and for that I have a couple of BD C3s. At least master cam is cheaper than both alternatives (and probably more durable than C3s). Bigger than yellow (finger) size, I think dual stem cams can be used for narrower head, as the stem termination at the ends tend not to get in the way.
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cfurman
Mar 31, 2008, 8:10 PM
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They may be the smallest 4cu on the market in the larget sizes, but the #2 MC is practically idential to the yellow alien in all aspects, head width etc... The #1 blue is also killer. I say get the 1 2 and 3!!
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basilisk
Mar 31, 2008, 9:10 PM
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wmfork wrote: basilisk wrote: Arguably! WC Zeros have both beat in smaller sizes. True, but the zeros have very narrow lobes. If the lobes were of the same width, aliens (in green and larger sizes) would beat both the zeros and master cam handily. Well sure, but.....they're not.
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trenchdigger
Mar 31, 2008, 9:58 PM
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epoch wrote: What say you... Though i haven't had the chance to field test them, I have made a few observations based on info I've read and having handled them in the store. The fit and finish is exceptional. Build quality is as expected from Metolius - top-notch. Flexibility is pretty good, though the trigger cables have to do some funky twisting to get out of the way of a horizontal placement. I am, however, disappointed in the use of the standard metolius camming angle which gives better grip, but less range. Aliens achive the range they do because of the soft lobes and larger cam angle. My other disappointment comes from the cam lobes' ability to "invert". Squeeze the trigger hard on any metolius cam and you'll see what I mean - the tips of the lobes can actually extend past the opposite cam lobe and contact the crack in a severely overcammed placement. This feature causes metolius cams (IMHO) to be more easily fixed in a placement.
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sky7high
Mar 31, 2008, 11:30 PM
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I know what you mean bout overcamming, but it also happens with other brands, I almost got a BD #2 C4 stuck that way
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trenchdigger
Apr 1, 2008, 12:03 AM
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sky7high wrote: I know what you mean bout overcamming, but it also happens with other brands, I almost got a BD #2 C4 stuck that way Actually, Camalots can't do the same thing because of their dual-axle design. Sure you can over-cam any cam, but only certain ones - like metolius - can have the tip of the lobe rotate enough to contact the rock.
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flint
Apr 1, 2008, 12:38 AM
Post #13 of 33
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lets not blame the maker for the user's error j-
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sky7high
Apr 1, 2008, 2:26 AM
Post #14 of 33
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hmmm... I'm pretty sure the cam corner was in contact with the rock. Maybe it was the shape of the crack. Anyway, as flint said, it's user error, not manufacturing/design defect.
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hafilax
Apr 1, 2008, 2:35 AM
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How is the lobe stopping against the rock any different from stopping the cams short of it. Different mechanism- same end. It can be argued that not limiting the rotation of the cam lobes inwards will enable you to unstick a cam near an opening using a nut tool. Just don't overcam it to begin with. I bet the range finder is responsible for more fixed cams than the lobe tails being able to touch the rock.
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healyje
Apr 1, 2008, 2:42 AM
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hafilax wrote: How is the lobe stopping against the rock any different from stopping the cams short of it. Different mechanism- same end. It can be argued that not limiting the rotation of the cam lobes inwards will enable you to unstick a cam near an opening using a nut tool. Just don't overcam it to begin with. I bet the range finder is responsible for more fixed cams than the lobe tails being able to touch the rock. You'd likely be wrong on both counts. As stated - any cam can be overcammed and stuck. preventing the tips from touching the rock on the other side at the end of the rotation would in no way prevent overcammed T/FCU's from getting stuck. Slot a cam in at the end of its rotation - regardless of where that is, and you'll be just as screwed. And for that matter, I've never seen a preponderance of one make stuck over another and I've seen a lot of stuck cams in my day.
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hafilax
Apr 1, 2008, 3:14 AM
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That's what I was trying to get at.
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carabiner96
Apr 1, 2008, 3:25 PM
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healyje wrote: hafilax wrote: How is the lobe stopping against the rock any different from stopping the cams short of it. Different mechanism- same end. It can be argued that not limiting the rotation of the cam lobes inwards will enable you to unstick a cam near an opening using a nut tool. Just don't overcam it to begin with. I bet the range finder is responsible for more fixed cams than the lobe tails being able to touch the rock. You'd likely be wrong on both counts. As stated - any cam can be overcammed and stuck. preventing the tips from touching the rock on the other side at the end of the rotation would in no way prevent overcammed T/FCU's from getting stuck. Slot a cam in at the end of its rotation - regardless of where that is, and you'll be just as screwed. And for that matter, I've never seen a preponderance of one make stuck over another and I've seen a lot of stuck cams in my day. so then whats the problem with the extended cam lobes?
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trenchdigger
Apr 9, 2008, 9:54 PM
Post #19 of 33
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hafilax wrote: How is the lobe stopping against the rock any different from stopping the cams short of it. Different mechanism- same end. It can be argued that not limiting the rotation of the cam lobes inwards will enable you to unstick a cam near an opening using a nut tool. Just don't overcam it to begin with. I'd disagree. With only one part of the lobe contacting the rock, you can more easily manipulate a stuck cam than one with the front and the back of the lobe stuck in the rock.
healyje wrote: And for that matter, I've never seen a preponderance of one make stuck over another and I've seen a lot of stuck cams in my day. I have seen far more fixed forged friends and metolius cams than any other brand. <<<shrug>>>
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billcoe_
Apr 9, 2008, 10:12 PM
Post #20 of 33
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I see lots of BD Camalots stuck. It's almost always a Camalot.
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healyje
Apr 9, 2008, 10:40 PM
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trenchdigger wrote: I'd disagree. With only one part of the lobe contacting the rock, you can more easily manipulate a stuck cam than one with the front and the back of the lobe stuck in the rock. Trench - the one end is against the rock in either case - my point and I believe Halifax's is that it doesn't really matter if the other end is stuck against the rock or stuck against the end of it's range (and / or stops) - either way the cam lobe isn't moving any further in that direction so it's the same as being against against the rock.
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trenchdigger
Apr 9, 2008, 10:52 PM
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healyje wrote: trenchdigger wrote: I'd disagree. With only one part of the lobe contacting the rock, you can more easily manipulate a stuck cam than one with the front and the back of the lobe stuck in the rock. Trench - the one end is against the rock in either case - my point and I believe Halifax's is that it doesn't really matter if the other end is stuck against the rock or stuck against the end of it's range ( and / or stops) - either way the cam lobe isn't moving any further in that direction so it's the same as being against against the rock. But when only the curved part of the lobe is in contact with the rock, you have the ability to potentially wiggle the cam in more directions than with the front and the back of the lobe in contact with the rock. Take an analogy - which is generally more secure and resistant to wiggling out, a nut with two points of contact with the rock or three points of contact?
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ja1484
Apr 9, 2008, 11:08 PM
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I like you fellas, but my personal take on it is: All this shit doesn't matter, you can either clean the cam or you can't. You don't wanna waste your limited minutes of life on this website arguing over ease of cleaning certain cam models when stuck. This place is for one thing and one thing only: Making snide sarcastic remarks to n00bs and gumbies seeking advice. Now go climbin', wouldja?
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Apr 9, 2008, 11:10 PM)
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hafilax
Apr 9, 2008, 11:09 PM
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This isn't really worth arguing about but my point is that you can't really generalize about one design getting stuck more that the other. There are too many variables. Just don't push them in if they won't go and try to predict what might happen as you continue on your merry way. The rangefinder dots OTOH will surely encourage some to fix their cams.
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flint
Apr 9, 2008, 11:44 PM
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hafilax wrote: The rangefinder dots OTOH will surely encourage some to fix their cams. dumbest things metolius has even done... j-
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