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artsaad
Apr 7, 2008, 5:39 PM
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Hello,
The question is this: if we have a boulder problem and it's "crux" is a 5.13a in YDS (I take this grade as route grade the one we know ), how can I translate this grade to Fontainebleau grades or V something? Thank you
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evanwish
Apr 7, 2008, 7:27 PM
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artsaad wrote: 5.13a in YDS
V7?
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sepulker
Apr 7, 2008, 7:40 PM
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What I don't understand is why a bouldering problem can't just be "easy" or "hard". Why does it have to have an elaborate rating system? And I think the answer is because it satisfies those with an ego that look at climbing as a competitive sport rather than the personal achievement it really is.
Rating problems just discourages you from trying them. For me, all problems are hard until I do them. Then they're easy.
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drunkenhighball
Apr 7, 2008, 9:55 PM
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artsaad wrote: Hello, The question is this: if we have a boulder problem and it's "crux" is a 5.13a in YDS (I take this grade as route grade the one we know ), how can I translate this grade to Fontainebleau grades or V something? Thank you
Geez people, do a search. This topic has been discussed so many times its not even funny. I'm lazy too, but I'm willing to bet there is a discussion about boulder grades/grade comparisons on the font page of this forum. I'll even bump. It for you if I see one
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joshgrind
Apr 7, 2008, 10:53 PM
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sepulker wrote: What I don't understand is why a bouldering problem can't just be "easy" or "hard". Why does it have to have an elaborate rating system? And I think the answer is because it satisfies those with an ego that look at climbing as a competitive sport rather than the personal achievement it really is. Rating problems just discourages you from trying them. For me, all problems are hard until I do them. Then they're easy.
I love your thinking. It's disgusting when I go to the local gym and I see people with an ego. It drains all the energy out of me. But, I know I need to get over that and just do what I am there to do. To me, bouldering is a personal progression and honestly the main reason why I started was to exercise my entire body and have something to work towards.
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artsaad
Apr 9, 2008, 1:13 AM
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Thank you all for your answers, I agree with Sepulker, I love climbing everything, and its the same for me I can make it or I can't so I will try until it surrender! I love the vertical world, from trees to ice, boulder, sport, trad everything! but now, me and a couple of friends are opening a new spot of boulder, and we are making the topo so we need the grades, the only grades we know are the trad and sport climbing grades, and here there are a few climbers that are rating everything with the new V grades but they have not too much experience so I don't believe their graduation.
I went to Fontainebleau, and some friends explained me that they graduate the boulder like this: they take the sport grade and take away one or two grades that's what I don't remember well for example, if there is a 8a crux on the boulder, then the boulder is a 7a something like that...
I want to know please ¿how you graduate the boulders?, if the boulder have a 5.12a crux, I take this grade and convert it into a V something?? or due to the difference between the sport climbing and the boulder do we have to change the graduation... well... thank you for your help.
Good climbing and good weather for all of you.
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flint
Apr 9, 2008, 1:39 AM
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artsaad wrote: Thank you all for your answers, I agree with Sepulker, I love climbing everything, and its the same for me I can make it or I can't so I will try until it surrender! I love the vertical world, from trees to ice, boulder, sport, trad everything! but now, me and a couple of friends are opening a new spot of boulder, and we are making the topo so we need the grades, the only grades we know are the trad and sport climbing grades, and here there are a few climbers that are rating everything with the new V grades but they have not too much experience so I don't believe their graduation. I went to Fontainebleau, and some friends explained me that they graduate the boulder like this: they take the sport grade and take away one or two grades that's what I don't remember well for example, if there is a 8a crux on the boulder, then the boulder is a 7a something like that... I want to know please ¿how you graduate the boulders?, if the boulder have a 5.12a crux, I take this grade and convert it into a V something?? or due to the difference between the sport climbing and the boulder do we have to change the graduation... well... thank you for your help. Good climbing and good weather for all of you.
v = [(the sport grade in YDS + number of attempts for the FA) / approach time] ^ Pi-2
simple...
j-
(This post was edited by flint on Apr 9, 2008, 1:40 AM)
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jonzoclimber
Apr 9, 2008, 1:59 AM
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Bouldering ratings make the sport safer. If I hopped on a "harder" problem to challenge myself that had a v14 crux at the top out I'd be in a lot of trouble. Don't be an R-Tard it's a legit question.
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vegasguy
Apr 9, 2008, 2:07 AM
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sepulker, that is an odd statement. Why not just rate others types of climbing in the same such manner. Why single out bouldering? Sport, Trad, Aid, Bouldering it's all climbing in the end. Going by your statement do you rate all types of climbing in this manner? There are reasons for grades they keep people from getting injuried not hurting their egos.
Cheers,
Andy
(This post was edited by vegasguy on Apr 9, 2008, 2:08 AM)
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joeschmoe
Apr 9, 2008, 4:57 AM
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So I'm too bored for my own good. A quick google search yielded this site:
http://www.spadout.com/....php/Climbing_Grades
If you follow good Southern ethics and sandbag the hell out of it, you should be alright.
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artsaad
Apr 9, 2008, 5:58 AM
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THX for your help.
To conclude with this subject, I'll take the grade as in sport climbing: the crux is 5.13a and convert it into V scale so that means that the boulder is V10 and so on with the others and everithing less than 5.11 is VB right?
Thanks again.
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justroberto
Apr 9, 2008, 6:00 AM
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jonzoclimber wrote: Bouldering ratings make the sport safer. If I hopped on a "harder" problem to challenge myself that had a v14 crux at the top out I'd be in a lot of trouble.
Then your ego would hurt, but most of the time that'd be the brunt of it.
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jonzoclimber
Apr 9, 2008, 2:26 PM
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robble robble boulder rant robble robble. Bouldering just let's you push your limits without 100 ft of easy moves. There's no need to bash bouldering's extremeness when the sport has already proven itself to be dangerous.
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justroberto
Apr 9, 2008, 3:10 PM
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jonzoclimber wrote: robble robble boulder rant robble robble.
Are you calling me the hamburgler?
In reply to: Bouldering just let's you push your limits without 100 ft of easy moves.
1) Don't be a dumbass - it's "lets" not "let's."
2)Don't be a dumbass - there are plenty of long routes where almost every move is harder than what you or I consider "hard."
In reply to: There's no need to bash bouldering's extremeness when the sport has already proven itself to be dangerous.
1) I'm not bashing bouldering - I happen to do it more than I climb on a rope right now.
2)Is this the "extremeness" of which you speak?
Give me a break. You don't need grades on a piece of 15' high rock to tell you how dangerous it is. All you have to do is say "wow, that looks hard at the top, and there are those sharp pointies in the fall zone. Am I up for it?"
As long as you're not a complete idiot about it, it's about as extreme and dangerous as competition diving.
(This post was edited by justroberto on Apr 9, 2008, 3:42 PM)
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jonzoclimber
Apr 9, 2008, 4:05 PM
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Well it would seem I just got owned on, but I still believe you are wrong despite my argument. Grades are important and "hard or easy" is only good if you're trying to figure out what grade you yourself climb or how hard a problem seems.
As for the picture... It is a bad example because it is a 1 move dyno, but for a problem like "ride the lightning" at Pawtuckaway, the bottom moves are quite doable, and the dangerous mantle that you can't easily see from the ground. Without knowing the rating one may not understand what they could be getting into.
Bottom line is grades are important and don't be so quick to play devil's advocate on the issue. All information is important for those who need it.
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sepulker
Apr 9, 2008, 5:35 PM
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I don't believe in anything that suggests someone is better at a physical activity other then performance.
Grades are important only to those who care about what others think about their achievement. This is analog to weightlifters in a gym broadcasting how much they can squat. It is beyond personal benchmarking, as you say, because one doesn't need numbers to gauge his own strength. You can either do it, or you can't. When you can do it, your better. My point is different then what you have intrepreted it as.
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Valarc
Apr 9, 2008, 5:45 PM
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sepulker wrote: Grades are important only to those who care about what others think about their achievement.
Grades are important to me, and I almost never talk about what grade I climb with others, because I'm embarrassed at how low the numbers are.
Grades can be about more than just ego - for example, I use grades to structure a training regimen - If I'm doing 4x4's I want climbs near my limit, but if I'm trying to do circuits for more general fitness I want easier stuff. I also want to be able to look in the guidebook when I'm doing those circuits and plan my way around to get a good use of my time.
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gobias
Apr 9, 2008, 6:07 PM
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In reply to: And I think the answer is because it satisfies those with an ego that look at climbing as a competitive sport rather than the personal achievement it really is.
So you see climbing to the top of a bunch of rocks as a personal achievement? Cause when you think about it, that's pretty useless in the long run, but we all still do it. Or do you see pushing your limit as personal achievement? Isn't that competitve?
What you want climbing to be isn't what everybody has to think.
-Dick
(This post was edited by gobias on Apr 9, 2008, 6:09 PM)
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sepulker
Apr 9, 2008, 7:34 PM
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You are starting to argue for the sake of arguing. Climbing is a fun way to stay in shape. It shouldn't become overcomplicated. That my only point. Next time I'll stick to the topic of the first post.
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rangerrob
Apr 10, 2008, 12:36 PM
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I like the tone of this thread! Sepulker is totally right. The reason bigger roped routes need a grade system is to keep 5.3 climbers from wandering onto 5.12x routes and killing themselves. Are you really gonna kill youself if you climb to the top of an 8 or 10 foot boulder and find the move harder than you anticipated? i doubt it. Grades are for vain people.
RR
Pads are for Fags!
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zakadamsgt
Apr 10, 2008, 1:00 PM
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I do understand the "easy" vs "hard" aspect to take the V-ego system out of the question, but grades do have a benefit IMO. For example, as we progress as climbers, harder climbs (to me) can be more fun. I enjoy seeing my progress and knowing that I'm pushing myself. When I go to a new area or field, I like knowing how I'm going to warm up and what I'm probably going to max out on. Grades enable me to do this. On the flipside, I hate letting grades keep me from getting on something, just because it's out of my league...
In the end, leave the ego at home and have fun -> try to stay out of the old melon
Z
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sepulker
Apr 10, 2008, 9:11 PM
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But, wouldn't a better gauge of your progress be in the fact that you can complete a larger percentage of the problems you try that day then last time? That way the only variable is your own improvement.
When you try to gauge your progress on a rating that others have laid down, your introducing a lot of variables, especially if multiple people created the grade. It is a system based on the mixture of other people's ability, and it fails.
To get technical, the V scale was created by ONE person (John Sherman) specifically for ONE location (Huecos Tanks). The scale was only meant for others to compare themselves to the ability of John Sherman, since of course he is the one who made the problems anyway. It doesn't make sense to remove the system from the problems it is specific to, and it makes less sense to try to rate problems with the V scale if you aren't John Sherman.
Quantifying ability other then the ability itself is futile. Its like asking somebody how much they love you on a scale from 1 to 10.
(This post was edited by sepulker on Apr 10, 2008, 9:17 PM)
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PepsiTwist
Apr 11, 2008, 7:34 PM
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Since I started, it's always been interesting to me how people want to downplay the competitive aspect of rock climbing. I feel as if society as a whole is moving in the direction of, "Oh, we arent going to keep score because winning and losing doesnt matter." A society of mediocrity. Yaay, err.. wait.. no..
Unfortunately it seems like the climbing community is lightyears ahead of the rest of society and has already whole heartedly committed to the idea that there should be no competition and all climbing should be done to commune with nature and yourself. I call bogus on that. Sure, there is nothing wrong with enjoying climbing purely as a form of exercise, but there also isnt anything wrong with seeing it as a form of competition or self-improvement.
How are you going to know if you have improved as a climber if you dont have a quantifiable way of measuring such improvement? Hence, grades are important. Now grading is still a very subjective matter, but that's for another time.
All that's currently being done with these conversations is holding climbing back from it's full mainstream potential. Heaven forbid we see climbing in the olympics or on t.v. because that would be selling out and be cheating the true essence of what climbing is.
If you really have a problem with grades and whatnot, then you should have absolutely no problem with ignoring them. Dont buy guidebooks, dont ask for beta, dont post on threads specifically angled towards grading questions. Just ignore them, then you can live in your own perfect little world where grades dont matter. Nobody is stopping you from doing that, now stop trying to critique everybody else who do like grades.
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sepulker
Apr 11, 2008, 10:12 PM
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You bring up a very good point. I had a discussion with my friend about this, and you brought up some of the same points he did about competition. I believe I made a mistake by leading towards the conclusion that competition is a bad thing. I believe competition can be very good; it motivates, introduces more fun into an activity, encourages social behavior, etc. Your absolutely right that there isn't anything wrong in seeing it as a form of competition, and of course anybody has the right to think of what they do for fun any way they want. My argument meant to be that grades get in the way of self-improvement more often when ego is involved, as with any sport. And that there is a more useful measurement of self-important rather then numbers.
To add to your last paragraph, it is a public forum. My conversation is civil and I have every right to express my opinion.
(This post was edited by sepulker on Apr 11, 2008, 10:13 PM)
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justroberto
Apr 11, 2008, 11:07 PM
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PepsiTwist wrote: Since I started, it's always been interesting to me how people want to downplay the competitive aspect of rock climbing. I feel as if society as a whole is moving in the direction of, "Oh, we arent going to keep score because winning and losing doesnt matter." A society of mediocrity. Yaay, err.. wait.. no..
Mediocrity. You're right. People aren't continually and absolutely crushing climbing standards from 2 or 20 or 50 years ago. We need more of a competitive scene to accomplish that.
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