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karlbaba
Apr 11, 2008, 3:15 AM
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Sean Jones and Crew put up a new almost all free route on the South Face of Half Dome. Story is here
http://www.rockandice.com/...7&type=exclusive
Many have cried fowl because rap bolting was used in the upper slab portions of the route when the Fa party was uncertain if it would go and couldn't drill from stances or hooks (and didn't want to put up a death route)
What do you think. Tactics justified or bad style (or both)
Peace
Karl
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tolman_paul
Apr 11, 2008, 3:23 AM
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Like this hasn't been discussed to death. And you end your post with peace? Wouldn't a more apropriate salutation be, incoming.
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karlbaba
Apr 11, 2008, 3:28 AM
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Actually Paul, there's been no mention of it at all on Rockclimbing.com. I'm curious what different perspectives different crowds have.
Whether it's peaceful or not depends on the players. It's an important discussion to have and nobody's worse for the wear so far.
Peace
Karl
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happiegrrrl
Apr 11, 2008, 3:57 AM
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wow....Karl's being called a troll. For posting about a probable landmark route on a climbing site. Because it's already been on another one. Didn't know topics for the various forums were proprietary.
I know there are plenty of people who don't post on ST, though they do lurk. Perhaps they might be more apt to post here, or on MP or SP....
But good on you, Karl, if your post was an intended troll, at least..... It's off to a fine start!
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curt
Apr 11, 2008, 4:27 AM
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karlbaba wrote: Sean Jones and Crew put up a new almost all free route on the South Face of Half Dome. Story is here http://www.rockandice.com/...7&type=exclusive Many have cried fowl because rap bolting was used in the upper slab portions of the route when the Fa party was uncertain if it would go and couldn't drill from stances or hooks (and didn't want to put up a death route) What do you think. Tactics justified or bad style (or both) Peace Karl
Personally, I cry "foul." Fowl is OK too, though.
Curt
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marc801
Apr 11, 2008, 4:38 AM
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happiegrrrl wrote: Didn't know topics for the various forums were proprietary. I know there are plenty of people who don't post on ST, though they do lurk. Perhaps they might be more apt to post here, or on MP or SP....
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karlbaba
Apr 11, 2008, 4:51 AM
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I've noticed from times I've posted the same question on this forum and then on Supertopo, that I've received very different responses. I'm trying to get a wider perspective on where the climbing community is at.
It's kinda like this: Some of my California friends were just dumbfounded that Bush got (sort-of) re-elected. They are in touch with like-minded people so they didn't get that there are plenty of folks who think different.
So I want to know what this forum thinks. I think on the supertopo forum there were probably folks who didn't feel like weighing in for or against the heavyweights on both sides of the coin. It might have been better if folks didn't read those comments before saying what they think here, but perhaps by doing so they'd be better informed of the issues.
Peace
karl
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moose_droppings
Apr 11, 2008, 4:52 AM
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Thats quite a leap to say that I'm calling troll because I pointed out a guess as to why it hasn't been being dicussed here yet.
Aren't many topics there that catch my eye, but this one did and I lurked my way through it since I'm not registered there.
Can't remember whos words were to the effect of, 'climbers better iron this one out before it invites the government to do so'. This BS of my bolt is OK but yours isn't is pretty petty from my viewpoint. No one person owns public rock. Get over it before someone else steps in and settles it in a way that neither side will like.
Reply to karls obove post edit:
Yes, I think it would help others to catch up to whats already been pointed out. Pretty sure most already have their opinion formed on style and etheics (I'd hope) without jumping fence.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Apr 11, 2008, 4:57 AM)
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quiteatingmysteak
Apr 11, 2008, 4:53 AM
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karlbaba wrote: I've noticed from times I've posted the same question on this forum and then on Supertopo, that I've received very different responses. I'm trying to get a wider perspective on where the climbing community is at. It's kinda like this: Some of my California friends were just dumbfounded that Bush got (sort-of) re-elected. They are in touch with like-minded people so they didn't get that there are plenty of folks who think different. So I want to know what this forum thinks. I think on the supertopo forum there were probably folks who didn't feel like weighing in for or against the heavyweights on both sides of the coin. It might have been better if folks didn't read those comments before saying what they think here, but perhaps by doing so they'd be better informed of the issues. Peace karl
I agree with Karl, I would like to see how this flies on RC.com. RC seems to be a more liberal climbing discussion arena, and a lot of people don't post on the taco.
Probably it will be tragic.
-GDavis
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quiteatingmysteak
Apr 11, 2008, 4:55 AM
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Jesus karl I just saw some of your work... holy Sh!t. Them's some good photos, man. I saw that island and thought it was some background of a video game.... take me along next time K?
-GDavis
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potreroed
Apr 11, 2008, 5:00 AM
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Bolts on an otherwise unprotectable slab--what a concept!!! With the amount of work involved, and the general bottom-feeding nature of the majority of climbers, I don't think we have to worry about the whole wall being grid-bolted. While I'm not a big fan of rap-bolting I say they did it right.
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curt
Apr 11, 2008, 5:10 AM
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karlbaba wrote: ...I think on the supertopo forum there were probably folks who didn't feel like weighing in for or against the heavyweights on both sides of the coin. Peace karl
Are you implying that more fat people post over there?
Curt
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curt
Apr 11, 2008, 5:12 AM
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potreroed wrote: Bolts on an otherwise unprotectable slab--what a concept!!! With the amount of work involved, and the general bottom-feeding nature of the majority of climbers, I don't think we have to worry about the whole wall being grid-bolted. While I'm not a big fan of rap-bolting I say they did it right.
Well, not surprisingly, I disagree.
Curt
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quiteatingmysteak
Apr 11, 2008, 5:17 AM
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curt wrote: potreroed wrote: Bolts on an otherwise unprotectable slab--what a concept!!! With the amount of work involved, and the general bottom-feeding nature of the majority of climbers, I don't think we have to worry about the whole wall being grid-bolted. While I'm not a big fan of rap-bolting I say they did it right. Well, not surprisingly, I disagree. Curt
1200 posts later on Supertopo.
This is about as far as we have come.
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quiteatingmysteak
Apr 11, 2008, 5:18 AM
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In all honesty I think a lot of climbers need to understand where the traditional camp is coming from. Not necessarily to agree with, but to grasp the concepts; routes start at the ground and the game is adventure, not difficulty. Sometimes this seems lost in the endless pursuant of VHard.
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shockabuku
Apr 11, 2008, 5:36 AM
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quiteatingmysteak wrote: In all honesty I think a lot of climbers need to understand where the traditional camp is coming from. ... and the game is...
Was that really your point.
Funny (ironic), it's similar to the thread on the value of climbing. If it's a game, then I can play whatever variation of the game I want and it's none of your business (but that's not quite true when people are calling out for attention to what they've done, is it?). It's all relative. Ethics are an argument for the locals. I guess in the age of the internet nothing is quite as local as it used to be.
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curt
Apr 11, 2008, 5:51 AM
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shockabuku wrote: quiteatingmysteak wrote: In all honesty I think a lot of climbers need to understand where the traditional camp is coming from. ... and the game is... Was that really your point. Funny (ironic), it's similar to the thread on the value of climbing. If it's a game, then I can play whatever variation of the game I want and it's none of your business...
Similarly, when you go bowling, remember to ask the nice man behind the desk to put the bumper guards up on your lane. Just please don't misrepresent to anyone that you actually did go bowling.
Curt
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shockabuku
Apr 11, 2008, 5:56 AM
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curt wrote: shockabuku wrote: quiteatingmysteak wrote: In all honesty I think a lot of climbers need to understand where the traditional camp is coming from. ... and the game is... Was that really your point. Funny (ironic), it's similar to the thread on the value of climbing. If it's a game, then I can play whatever variation of the game I want and it's none of your business... Similarly, when you go bowling, remember to ask the nice man behind the desk to put the bumper guards up on your lane. Just please don't misrepresent to anyone that you actually did go bowling. Curt
I always liked the saying:
The devil is in the details.
I was never sure if that was the Devil proper or just the devil in general however.
I used to take risks and keep the bumpers down but nowadays I can't even motivate myself to get out there anymore. Maybe it's too safe an environment nowadays, you know with all the anti-smoking laws and anti-drunk driving and eat healthy shit going on these days.
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jaybro
Apr 11, 2008, 7:46 AM
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Hmm, seems like no one is really into climbing related material, here...
was that a troll?
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xtrmecat
Apr 11, 2008, 2:18 PM
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Karl, I'll weigh in on this again. Once on ST and again here. I also believe that Yosemite locals(ethics) have always been ground up and on the leading edge of the sport. I am trying hard to climb this way, and would never consider rap bolting as an option to putting up a route.
I also understand the whole slab,unprotectable argument, and although not being able to climb at this level, think that it should have been left for future climbing that can be done in this style and ethics.
Also, anytime the people in controversy are using media or money to their gain then I am totally against it. DP, this route, professionally guiding(whether on the river or rock). These people should be held to a slightly higher standard being "professionals" so to speak. It is a finite resource and belongs to all, not just those seeking money or fame. If it can be climbed in the prevailing style(bottom up, drilling on lead) then go baby go.
If not it is not a plum to be plucked by you. As a wise man stated on this topic, that I was not good enough should be the attitude, and just walk on by. Someone, some day will either do it, or not. But the rest of us (who the climb really belongs to) do not get raped of the opportunity to send it the right way.
I vacation there roughly every other year and also climb in some areas that have differing ethics. I believe it would be wrong to adopt my home crags bolting ethics on my vacation crags stone.
Trad all the way, sport climbing is neither.
Bob
Flame retardant suit at the ready.
Oh yeah, Hi Karl.
(This post was edited by xtrmecat on Apr 11, 2008, 2:23 PM)
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j_ung
Apr 11, 2008, 2:43 PM
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Bearing in mind that I'm not a local, have never even been there, and hence, don't have an amoeba in the petri dish, let alone a dog in the fight, I think it was poorer style than was appropriate for the crag. That said, do I even care? Nawp. If you look back in time at all the style and ethic-based nonsense that has occurred from time to time in Yosemite, it's a tip-toe through the ego field of melodrama. This is just more of the same.
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Truck
Apr 11, 2008, 3:35 PM
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In reply to: If you look back in time at all the style and ethic-based nonsense that has occurred from time to time in Yosemite, it's a tip-toe through the ego field of melodrama. This is just more of the same.
Nuff said right there. We just saved 1200 posts.
Truck
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quiteatingmysteak
Apr 11, 2008, 4:19 PM
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shockabuku wrote: quiteatingmysteak wrote: In all honesty I think a lot of climbers need to understand where the traditional camp is coming from. ... and the game is... Was that really your point. Funny (ironic), it's similar to the thread on the value of climbing. If it's a game, then I can play whatever variation of the game I want and it's none of your business (but that's not quite true when people are calling out for attention to what they've done, is it?). It's all relative. Ethics are an argument for the locals. I guess in the age of the internet nothing is quite as local as it used to be.
As Hemingway said, the only real games are bullfighting, boxing and mountain climbing 
But then again Hemingway was an ass.
I don't think calling it a 'game' takes away from its seriousness, heritage or construct. I for SURE would call golf a game (also a huge waste of time, though fun) yet would hardly expect those on the PGA tour to call mulligans. Similarly Football is a game -- a coach just got fined $750,000.000. Some games have high stakes.
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deltav
Apr 11, 2008, 4:47 PM
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marc801 wrote: happiegrrrl wrote: Didn't know topics for the various forums were proprietary. I know there are plenty of people who don't post on ST, though they do lurk. Perhaps they might be more apt to post here, or on MP or SP.... With over 1200 posts and counting on ST, what more could anyone possibly say?
I don't read ST. Thanks for bringing it up Karl
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