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zenelky
Jan 14, 2008, 3:46 PM
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I understand that I have an ego problem, and I know that i need to leave it behind when I climb, but I don't know how to start and am hoping that some others out there can help me.
My story: The last time I can remember climbing for me and for the joy of climbing was almost a year ago. My problem is that when I climb, I feel like I am climbing with the weight of the world on my shoulders. I don't know if this is a woman's problem, or just my problem, but now, I feel as though if I'm not pulling hard climbs that the boys can't climb than they (other climbers) don't respect me. I think this is stemmed from the fact that my climbing partner (who is my significant other) and I climb about the same grade (although there are noted differences in the types of climbs he and I prefer),but when we encounter other climbers at our local crags, more often than not I feel as though they talk to him rather than to us.
This used to not bother me since the routes they were asking about I hadn't climbed so I had no input anyway. But then, something happened and the climbs they questioned my partner and I about were climbs I had done and he had not. I would try to give some beta, and sometimes they would give me this strange "What are you talking about" look that made me question my ability. My partner tells me that in most cases when other climbers are talking to us (they are usually male...this is a male dominated sport remember) they usually focus on him because it makes them more comfortable. Most guys in this area don't know any women who can climb harder than them, thus I make them slightly uncomfortable. But this has put me into a state of questioning my own ability. This problem of male climbers talking directly to my partner is a problem that I have faced as recently as last week.
Now when I climb, I feel like I am climbing for all the women out there who don't get spoken to at the crag, all the women who are working to be the best that they can be, but just aren't there yet, all the women in the world who's ability is questioned because they are little. When I'm up climbing now, I feel like if I don't climb route XYZ than I am just like all the girls out there who get carried up routes to appease their boyfriends. This ego problem used to only come up when other's were watching, particularly women because I felt like I had to show them that they CAN climb 5.X, they just have to want it. Now, it is part of every aspect of my climbing, even when it's just my partner and I at our local crag.
Does anyone have any insight as to how I can start climbing for me again and stop climbing for respect?
~Mic
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miavzero
Jan 14, 2008, 9:30 PM
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When I was a young buck I found myself getting too involved in my identity as a strong and daring climber. One year after a string of difficult first ascents, I cracked under the pressure of climbing beginning to feel like a job. Eventually I quit climbing altogether for about six months.
After an entire winter off, I returned to climbing, because I had a strong intrinsic desire to climb again. I was certainly out of shape, so I did not get upset when I could not climb at my former level. I also spent a many enjoyable days bouldering and soloing in remote places. By the time Spring turned into summer, I was climbing well again, yet did not get worked up when I didn't. By spending time alone, and trying out new things (bouldering, dynamic moves, and trick mantels), I shifted my focus from a performance orientation to a mastery orientation. Since that Spring I have viewed climbing as an amazing process of discovery, rather than a means of determining self-worth.
I think that you could also rediscover climbing if you took similar steps to reorganize climbing and/or other parts of your life. Consider:
Taking some time off to focus on other things (family, art, community service, another sport).
Climb in new areas, surrounded by different people, or no one at all.
Practice a discipline of climbing that you know you are not masterful at doing. If you are a poor wide crack climber, climb wide cracks for the sake of learning.
Play games when you go out climbing. If your ego is too fragile to be seen falling on .11's and .12's, jump on a 5.9 and try to eliminate handholds, climb it in tennis shoes, dyno every move, use one hand, or just do tons of laps.
Above all, just try to look forward to learning new things.
I haven't read TRWW, but I don't need to. For me, climbing is the greatest hobby in the world, because there is always something to learn, new challenges that emerge, and life to be lived to the fullest.
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microbarn
Jan 18, 2008, 2:51 PM
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I am not the person to give advice on controlling your ego, but I thought I could address the other part.
My wife and I hang out together a lot. She had difficulty similar to yours because of my strong personality in groups. As an example, when we go into restaurants, the waiter/waitress ALWAYS talks to ME. When we go car shopping, the car salesperson always talks to me even when I make an ENORMOUS effort to remain silent. (The car was for her.)
I consciously worked on my personality at one point in my life to make it stronger and more dominate in a group of people. So, this is exactly the results I desired. Now, I am often seen as the leader on trips, social decisions, etc. This just carried over into the areas where we meet new people. Even when I go into a restaurant with male friends, I realize I am typically the person spoken too.
I have no idea what clues people zero in on, but perhaps this is a similar situation. Maybe the new people you are meeting are just zeroing in on the 'leader' personality your partner has. Pay attention to who waiters/waitresses speak to out of the two of you. See who people aim their conversation to when they are part of a group. My bets are that he gets the conversation directed at him more often then some others.
If you feel this is the problem, then you will be able to work on changing the problem all day every day. If you want a personality that is a leader's personality, then start changing the way you act in ALL interactions. If you decide you are happy letting others deal with the details leaders often fickle over, then work on being comfortable with accepting the consequences elsewhere. Finally remember, you don't have to be 100% one way or another. It is possible you could alter yourself to be a little more leader like without a full transition.
Good luck!
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cchas
Jan 18, 2008, 7:00 PM
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Ego and the things you are talking about are difficult things to address. Arno makes them seem easy but it really isn't.
First, don't empower it. Understand that climbing is in reality a really silly lifestyle, but what is important is the people we meet and not the numbers we pull down.
Then, find other things to psych you, the problem solving, the learning process, the movement. By concentrating on the fun parts, you aren't thinking about what people are thinking about you (and in reality they are probably thinking about what you think about them, how difficult or scare that climb is for them, or any other thing they may be thinking about).
(This post was edited by cchas on Jan 18, 2008, 7:04 PM)
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charley
Jan 20, 2008, 3:44 PM
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Microbarn has some interesting statements. You can change your personality. I would bet even if the woman had the outgoing personality the waiter, car salesman, etc. would still talk to the man first. That's just the way it is.
If you want to climb for you again you might try climbing with me.  Or someone like me in that I don't climb near as well as you. Climb with someone who doesn't climb as well as you and maybe as you help them become a better climber you might recieve the benifit of not caring so much about how hard you are climbing. Helping others can have some strange benefits.
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arnoilgner
Jan 21, 2008, 10:40 PM
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Hello Mic,
Diminishing our ego is an ongoing process. You've made the first step: noticing its interference. I would highly recommend not climbing for all women...putting all that pressure on yourself. You'll end up hating climbing or hurting yourself.
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To begin diminishing the ego, do this:
1. Write down all the reasons you can about why you love climbing.
2. Write down goals in climbing: specific routes/grade and skills you'll need to learn in order to achieve those routes/grades.
3. When you go climbing, focus on items 1 and 2 above. When you notice getting distracted, redirect attention back to what you love and your goals.
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Ego is an identity we create based on external things, like how hard we climb and what we've climbed. Ego hates learning; it just loves the end result.
So, the better you get at redirecting attention to what you love about climbing and your goals the more you'll learn and the more ego will be diminished.
-
Arno
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tolman_paul
Feb 12, 2008, 1:36 AM
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The only way to truly enjoy climbing is to do it solely for yourself. Don't climb as a way to socialize, don't do it to brag, don't do it for the grades, don't do it make yourself feel special.
Climb solely for the enjoyment of moving over rock, ice etc. Sounds like your climbing has too much a scene attached with it. Try and head out by yourself to an area that doesn't have many if any climbers around. Nothing like working some boulders to completely remove yourself from the constraint of partners and gear.
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mturner
Feb 23, 2008, 5:12 PM
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tolman_paul wrote: The only way to truly enjoy climbing is to do it solely for yourself. Don't climb as a way to socialize, don't do it to brag, don't do it for the grades, don't do it make yourself feel special. Climb solely for the enjoyment of moving over rock, ice etc. Sounds like your climbing has too much a scene attached with it. Try and head out by yourself to an area that doesn't have many if any climbers around. Nothing like working some boulders to completely remove yourself from the constraint of partners and gear.
Not sure I agree with you. While the most important reason to climb should be enjoyment of actually climbing (movement etc.), the other benefits do not necessarily lead to ego problems if you keep a growth mindset. Especially as a way to socialize. Unless you're so focused on what others think of you or what others are climbing I don't see how socializing is a negative aspect in climbing. Most of my best friends I've made I met climbing and I wouldn't trade them for anything.
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zenelky
Feb 25, 2008, 2:17 PM
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Thank you, everyone, for all your great input on this. It is definitely an up hill battle, but one that's worth fighting.
I guess I want to post this first and foremost as a thank-you and also to let others in similar positions know what is working for me. I had to really examine my entire life situation in order to pin-point where and when these ego problems started, and as expected, it was an extension of personal problems that I had been facing in school, work, etc. that I had to correct first.
Several weekends ago I was able to go climbing with a group of friends I don't get to see often at a trad crag I often avoided because I always felt I wasn't "good enough to climb at". So, I had to swallow my ego and choose the 'easy' climbs. Well, I was about 1/2 way up the 'easy' climb (knowing full well and good that my belayer couldn't finish it up like my usual belayer if I didn't climb it), and was finally able to look over my shoulder at the views. Something I couldn't do before because I was always so focused on the next move, the next hold, the next foot, what kind of fall am I looking at, and that's when I remembered why I climbed. That feeling that you get when you're climbing, un-afraid, and able to focus on the breeze, and the scenery all around you.
So, I've been refocusing my efforts from the physical aspect of climbing to the mental so that I can focus on me again. Or, when we sport climb, getting on 'easy' routes and trying to focus on the aesthetics of the climb, not the grade. But, this is, again, and uphill battle: I was on a climb just yesterday that I was able to use a 2 finger pocket on, and my partner could only use 1 finger in. Once again, I felt that same ego feeling because I felt like I was some how inferior since I was able to make the move with 2 fingers and he only used 1. Silly, I know, but I also had to make a much longer move than he...so it should all even out in the end.
Thank you.
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caliclimbergrl
Feb 28, 2008, 9:11 AM
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First, I want to highly recommend you read Steph Davis' book titled "High Infatuation: A Climber's Guide to Love and Gravity" There's a quote from the book that I wrote down when I was reading that really addresses some of the things you're talking about, so I'll go ahead and share it with you"
"Over the years, I encountered conflicting attitudes toward me as a
young woman climber. For a long time I felt that I was often
figuratively patted on the head – excessively praised for the things
that weren't really all that impressive, by real climbing standards,
just because I was a decent-looking girl. But at other times, when I
did do a particularly good climb, I sometimes encountered a surprising
degree of negativity. It was as if there was a certain place for me
as a women, although it took a long time for me to figure that out.
Looking nice in pictures and climbing at a high but not threatening
level were fine. As I started to push myself harder, things changed.
Sometimes the change was subtle, sometimes not."
Kinda long, but I think it's appropriate here. I think this is something women climbers struggle with a lot.
It's funny though -- it doesn't seem to happen to me all that often, or maybe I just don't notice it when it does happen. I think part of it is that most of my climbing partners are quite a bit better than me and the few that aren't better than me are quite a bit worse. So I'm usually either learning from my partners, and following them up routes that would be too difficult for me to lead, or I'm teaching them how to place gear and I'm the one doing all of the leading. Or maybe I'm just not good enough for guys to find me threatening.
Anyway, my only suggestion is to really try to remember why you're there. When people treat you like you're invisible or like you don't know what you're doing, remember that you *do* know what you're doing and try to let it roll off your back. If you climb like you have something to prove, you're going to end up in pissing contests with guys that can't keep their egos in check, and that's no fun! I know it's easier said than done. I really think you should read Steph's book!
And I'm sorry to put in another quote here, but I just can't help myself because it's so similar to what you're saying!! So if I haven't been successful in giving you a strategy to leave your ego behind, at least I hope I've made you feel like someone really gets what you're saying.
"Because I am a woman, I must make unusual efforts to succeed. If I fail, no one will say, 'She doesn't have what it takes'; They will say, 'Women don't have what it takes.'" --Clare Boothe Luce
I say, stick it to all the egotistical guys by showing them how much fun women can have climbing -- whatever ability they climb at. I think if you quietly enjoy your difficult climbs, you'll win over the respect of other (male) climbers much better then you will if you're climbing like you have something to prove anyway. And if they want beta, but won't take it from you, just laugh silently while they flail away on the wall.
And at the very least, it sounds like your partner has a lot of respect for you as a climber -- and that can be hard to find in climber guys!
Good luck, and climb on!
*Julia
(This post was edited by caliclimbergrl on Feb 28, 2008, 9:20 AM)
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degaine
Mar 5, 2008, 11:01 AM
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Surround yourself with friends / partners who just don’t play the ego game.
I find the ego game is a two way street – when I insert my ego into a situation, other people will inevitably do the same, when I leave the ego at home and don’t enter into the ego game, others (whether friends in my group or random people at the crag) seem to just drop it at some point and we all have a good time.
Call it ESP or emotional intelligence or emotional proprioception or whatever, but I find people pick up on the ego vibe. I know that I perceive and react to people differently when I insert my ego into the situation - it certainly influences how people behave towards me.
I’ll admit that perhaps it’s easier said than done when one is a guy.
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rasoy
Apr 23, 2008, 4:38 AM
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How does one leave their ego behind?
Ego is the true identity of the soul.
It's false ego that causes the problems and is one of the most difficult things to see and understand. Falsely identifying myself with matter.
The subtle material energy consists of mind, intelligence and false-ego (defined as the identification of the body as the self).
False ego can and will manifest in very subtle forms to the unsuspecting aspirant who believes he's conquered them.
False ego is of course the symptom of the bodily concept of life. Really that is what it means. Ego means self so false ego means a false understanding of the self, or understanding the self to be the body.
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caliclimbergrl
Apr 23, 2008, 4:44 AM
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I don't think that's what she meant by ego, though even with that definition, I think it is possible and valuable to learn to leave your ego behind. That is the goal of transcendental mediation -- to merge your soul with the life force of the universe so that your self ceases to exist and becomes part of a bigger whole. I think climbing might be another way to achieve this for some if you believe in that kind of thing (which I don't, but I think it's a really cool idea).
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rasoy
Apr 23, 2008, 4:34 PM
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To merge into the efulgent bodily rays of the Supreme Lord and lose ones individuality (ego) is not the real goal of meditation.
That is the goal of the impersonalists and mayavadis who due to a poor fund of knowledge have not reached a complete understanding of the Absolute truth.
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mturner
Apr 23, 2008, 5:10 PM
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rasoy wrote: To merge into the efulgent bodily rays of the Supreme Lord and lose ones individuality (ego) is not the real goal of meditation. That is the goal of the impersonalists and mayavadis who due to a poor fund of knowledge have not reached a complete understanding of the Absolute truth.
 oh please! You know what they meant by ego, now you're just being a smartass.
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rasoy
Apr 23, 2008, 10:54 PM
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I'm establishing the real platform of "ego".
That's what the subject matter is about.
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mturner
Apr 23, 2008, 11:56 PM
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rasoy wrote: I'm establishing the real platform of "ego". That's what the subject matter is about.
Reread the OP, forgot the title, and tell me where your idea of ego comes up. Please enlighten us...or STFU
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rasoy
Apr 24, 2008, 2:50 AM
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mturner
I see that you have the ego problem.
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mturner
Apr 24, 2008, 4:49 PM
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rasoy wrote: mturner I see that you have the ego problem.
you're the one with the ego problem mr. knowitall
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bender
Apr 25, 2008, 6:31 AM
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should you bump into any aspect of my ego
youve permission to shove a knife in its back
no questions asked
:D
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tripperjm
Apr 27, 2008, 3:02 PM
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mturner wrote: rasoy wrote: mturner I see that you have the ego problem. you're the one with the ego problem mr. knowitall
uhmm... That's Mr Astroman, in case you didn't know. You can pull your foot out of your mouth anytime you want, you just have to want to.
That is all.
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mturner
Apr 27, 2008, 4:44 PM
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tripperjm wrote: mturner wrote: rasoy wrote: mturner I see that you have the ego problem. you're the one with the ego problem mr. knowitalluhmm... That's Mr Astroman, in case you didn't know. You can pull your foot out of your mouth anytime you want, you just have to want to. That is all.
Great good for him. Doesn't change a thing. His comments still have no bearing on the OP's topic.
(This post was edited by mturner on Apr 27, 2008, 4:55 PM)
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arnoilgner
Apr 30, 2008, 1:03 AM
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sounds like everyone is getting a bit testy. getting offended or defensive, which several folks have done in this thread, indicate ego is reacting and taking it personally. so this thread is a great opportunity for folks to see how much ego they have. if you feel a need to put someone down for a comment, even if it criticizes your comment, then know it is coming from your ego. delay reacting, and find something to say that connects and bring clarity to this whole issue.
keep it a bit light. this process can be fun.
arno
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mturner
Apr 30, 2008, 4:49 PM
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arnoilgner wrote: sounds like everyone is getting a bit testy. getting offended or defensive, which several folks have done in this thread, indicate ego is reacting and taking it personally. so this thread is a great opportunity for folks to see how much ego they have. if you feel a need to put someone down for a comment, even if it criticizes your comment, then know it is coming from your ego. delay reacting, and find something to say that connects and bring clarity to this whole issue. keep it a bit light. this process can be fun. arno
Nah, my ego just indicated to me that you just took all the fun out of it.
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aerili
May 9, 2008, 6:20 AM
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For some reason, I think you would get something out of reading The Dance of Anger by Harriet Lerner, PhD. Even though it is specifically about changing the patterns of relationships, she writes specifically about women's issues (although men can get A LOT out of her books, too, as the principles of personality traits and behaviors she talks about are not just universal to women).
She also covers a lot of stuff about finding a clearer self. All her other books are excellent, too. In fact, I cannot stress how highly I recommend Dr. Lerner's amazing books.
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