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Why trad leaders so averse to falling?
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climblouisiana


Oct 30, 2002, 11:35 AM
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Why trad leaders so averse to falling? [In reply to]
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On long routes falling and figuring out moves takes time so when i do long routes that require gear placement, I usually climb slightly below my limit to ensure that I can complete the route without having an epic. If it's a route that is a single pitch with a clean fall then I will generally go for it and not be as a afraid to fall. Just as in sport climbing, the harder the gear route is the better the fall. Easier climbs tend to be slabbier and more featured whether bolted or requiring gear placements.

Gawd, lighten up.


astone


Oct 30, 2002, 11:36 AM
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Why trad leaders so averse to falling? [In reply to]
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Given the recent flamings on this post it seems trad leaders fall into two categories; those who apply their skills to preserve life, and those who are dying to get radical.

The best climbers I have met are those who are as afraid of falling as the rest of us, but use their intellect and skill to climb amazing things despite those fears. The young and the reckless seldom seem to achieve that level of competence.

My admiration and attention goes to all trad climber who have made it past 40, and to those who have died trying in admirable style.


therealdeal


Oct 30, 2002, 12:00 PM
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Why trad leaders so averse to falling? [In reply to]
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Tell her to ask Goran Kroup about whipping on trad gear. Opps! Too late. Climbing is dangerous, bottom line.


melonhead


Oct 30, 2002, 12:02 PM
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Why trad leaders so averse to falling? [In reply to]
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NO, YOU don't want to fall. Not me, I'll take the wipper!!!



Partner rrrADAM


Oct 30, 2002, 12:05 PM
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Why trad leaders so averse to falling? [In reply to]
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I just read this elsewhere...

"Don't feed the TROLLS !!!"


klimberbob


Oct 30, 2002, 12:45 PM
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if the fall would be clean, and the gear is good - ie a bommer nut or hex, then there is no issue about falling. air time on trad character building


rollingstone


Oct 30, 2002, 12:45 PM
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Right on, rrradam!

As an older (49) trad climber, much of my experience and indoctrination in the sport came from using rock climbing as a means to go on to longer alpine routes in great ranges. The consequence of a fall onto gear one has placed themselves is consequently greater than one faces in a prepared, cleaned, manufactured sport area. Alpine routes are generally not as steep, and the consequences for even a minor injury become magnified when one is faced with several thousand feet of descent and then 10 or 20 miles of walking out (or longer, in some places...). Not all vertical endeavors share equal risk.


stevematthys


Oct 30, 2002, 12:51 PM
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Why trad leaders so averse to falling? [In reply to]
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falling is failing. that is what i think.


sparky


Oct 30, 2002, 4:24 PM
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that gear is pricy and the rock may be chossy, but not to EVER fall is taking it a little to far, you shouldn't just fall for shits and giggles but don't be entirley against it, i'll whip inthe gym because its not my gear


joemor


Oct 30, 2002, 4:54 PM
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Why trad leaders so averse to falling? [In reply to]
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you shouldnt be against falling.... mabe avoid doing stupid things.... but dont start a climb thinking you wont fall, instead think of how to protect the route so its safe to fall. hell my placements are much more bomber than most of the rusty 30 yearold carrot bolts in australia. if you dont fall your not pushing your self. it may not be important to you but i want to climb as hard as im able and in order to do that i take the risk of falling. its all part of the game. hell whippers are fun..
sure try not to fall onto ledges butdont rule falling out all together.

joe


slcliffdiver


Oct 30, 2002, 4:58 PM
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Why trad leaders so averse to falling? [In reply to]
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Just because it has bolts doesn't make it "sport" and just because it takes gear doesn't make it "trad" (yes I know the second is the literal definition). For me it's it's more of a psychological thing. Gear easy to place, super solid, close together, great fall line and sewn up everywhere there's a reasonable chance of a fall; basically any route I'd be willing to fall up and placed the gear as such I never really considered a "trad" lead. Take away any of those factors and then I'd be in more of a trad mindset.

I've "sieged" some routes placing gear (multiple falls to get up the first time) but never really considered them a leading "trad" (never did this on routes not super well protected). They just didn't have the feel. If placing the pro was part of the crux even if when placed it was super solid and would meet my "sport" criteria otherwise that becomes a little more "trad" in my mind also.

I liked what one person said about leading trad only push one limit at a time. Difficulty, gear, route finding, etc.

Falling on literal trad routes goes from anything in safety range (assuming you know what you're doing) from a well protected sport route to you might as well be soloing. For me the psychology doesn't always keep pace if I have a long enough layoff from leading trad falling on even the best redundant gear becomes much less appealing.

Peace

David
Edit: Forgot spell check:)

[ This Message was edited by: slcliffdiver on 2002-10-30 17:58 ]


jt512


Oct 30, 2002, 5:04 PM
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Why trad leaders so averse to falling? [In reply to]
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Question for those of you who don't want to fall in order to spare your gear: What gear are you referring to, and how many falls do you think it will withstand?

-Jay


fireclimber


Oct 30, 2002, 5:45 PM
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I would tell her a race car driver does not like to crash , duh


clmbnski


Oct 30, 2002, 7:12 PM
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Why trad leaders so averse to falling? [In reply to]
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Everyone is acting like there is two choices, either never fall or push your limits until you fall. However it is totally subjective on the route, the rock, the pro and many other things. If the gear is good and the fall clean there then you should push your limits and expect to fall. If the route is potentially dangerous then you should be more heads up and consider backing off if you dont feel right.

It depends on the situation

Chris


jhwnewengland


Oct 30, 2002, 7:32 PM
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You're right JT, people worrying about sparing their gear probably haven't used their gear that much. Once you do, you'll realize that it is damn strong, and not going to break on you anytime soon.


apollodorus


Oct 30, 2002, 7:51 PM
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Two words: chopper-flake and ledge


passthepitonspete


Oct 30, 2002, 7:54 PM
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Why trad leaders so averse to falling? [In reply to]
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I don't like falling for two reasons:

1. I'm a chickenshit.

2. It means I've failed.

I've taken whippers onto duct taped hooks and #2 heads, right on up to big frickin' bolts.

If it holds, it's all good. But it doesn't make it any less scary!


kmae


Oct 30, 2002, 9:08 PM
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stevo, tradklime, bwnco, astone:
Thanks for the great ideas/thoughts. I appreciate it all. Rock on.
kmae


blessard


Oct 30, 2002, 9:25 PM
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Geez, you people are scary!! I wish more climbers would get real instruction from accredited guides/instructors. If I had to guess, and I will, I'd guess a lot of you folks are self-taught or learned from people who were self-taught!?!? And, yes, I know 20 years ago, there weren't many options, but, today there are! If you don't trust your gear, why are you placing it?


drdeath


Oct 30, 2002, 9:40 PM
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Agreed! I take whippers on my gear all the time. The only ones that concern me are the extra small nuts and small cams. But in the case of well placed small gear I am usually more concerned about damaging the gear rather that the gear blowing.


mreardon


Oct 31, 2002, 11:59 AM
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I also learned to never come off. My partners would actually not allow any hangdogging whatsoever and I would have to go all the way back to the belay or ground and go back up from the ground. It was the only way to truly send. Because of this mentality, I also held myself back a bit from the "high numbers".

To get over this, I "french free" or aid a line every couple weeks just to get used to the gear holding. Then I'll take a small whip on the warm-up climb to force the head on. After that, I'll push myself until I fly. It's the only way to get better, and to learn how to trust your gear placements. If you can't trust the gear, then why even place it.


blessard


Oct 31, 2002, 9:41 PM
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Great post, mreardon! I was just going to bring up Aid climbing.
Thanks!


holygecko


Nov 1, 2002, 6:27 AM
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because if your a hardcore trad junkie when you fall your supposed to start that pitch all over, kinda like a punishment for bein a pu---


kmae


Nov 1, 2002, 9:10 AM
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Hi Blessard, thanks for the question - I've had a good bit of pro instruction, starting with the Appalachian Mountain Club (the venerable "AMC") Boston Chapter rock climbing class, plus other classes and pro instruction.

I was just looking for a kind of a sanity check from others on their feelings about falling on gear.

On the topic of "If you don't trust your gear, why are you placing it?" -- I do place good gear (when I can get it:-)). Unfortunately I know that you can get very hurt falling on solid gear. I took a small (15-20') fall on a pink tri-cam. It was solid and held. But since I slammed into the rock with my lower back/tailbone I couldn't walk for two weeks and was in pain for about three months.

So my basic point is that you can get hurt falling on good gear. Thanks for your feedback. I think I'm definitely going to hand this second the rack and let her see what it's like. Then maybe she won't be so macho about it.

[ This Message was edited by: kmae on 2002-11-03 15:36 ]


blessard


Nov 1, 2002, 11:54 AM
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Right, I understand. Sorry, I wasn't really directing my comments specifically at you. I probably overstated it a bit!

Climb on!

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