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kest2703
May 6, 2008, 8:04 AM
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gunkiemike
May 8, 2008, 10:19 PM
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As I understand it, the SPI exam comes at the end of the multi-day training. It is given by the instructor, who must of course be an AMGA certified SPI instructor. YIt is an on-rock practical test and so you can't download it as if it were a bunch of multiple choice questions.
There are alternatives to AMGA. Look up PCIA. But I think only AMGA is allied with the international organization IFMGA.
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jmeizis
May 8, 2008, 11:28 PM
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No they're not the only ones, just the most well recognized and as was said the only organization recognized by the IFMGA.
Check where you want to work, some places don't require it. Just make sure they have some risk management protocol and actually have some sort of program and aren't just a bunch of morons.
The course is instructed by an AMGA certified guide, someone who I believe has taken AMGA instructor course. You take the course which lasts three days, about 8 hours a day. They give you an evaluation of how you did. Then you sign up for the course andyou get a group of people, take them out like your on a single pitch trip and set up ropes for them. If you do anything that jeopardizes your safety or that of your clients you fail.
Like all certifications it's the quick and expensive way to show someone you know what your doing as opposed to putting in the mileage and learning it on your own. Unfortunately, some people won't look at you without the certifications. If you want to become a guide then go with the SPI. If you just want to work at a gym for a while then don't worry about certs.
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majid_sabet
May 8, 2008, 11:34 PM
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IMO, becoming a certified on something without gaining enough experience prior to be proficient on the subject is basically worthless and it is just a piece of paper to hang on wall. A lot of people go thru this phase of getting certification thinking that a piece of paper will put them a few steps ahead of others or sometimes builds this ego that a certified whatever knows or is superior to non-certified people but that is wrong reason to go after certification .Having certification in addition to experience and knowledge almost wins every time and in this type of activity, it will covers your end in case sh*t hits the fan and you end up in some court fighting a lawsuit.
Just go ahead and get some experience and then take the test. That way you earn it.
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MikeSaint
May 9, 2008, 12:05 AM
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kest2703 wrote: Good Day, I was wondering if the AMGA wall instructor and the AMGA single pitch instructor where the only recognized certification for instructing out there. Is there a good alternative? Is working at the gym and passing the local gyms tests enough? or if i plan to continue working as an instructor, would it be beneficial to become AMGA certified? Who instructs or tests you after taking the AMGA courses? Or can i download the test somewhere and take it, or can somebody "sign me off"??? just some questions i had. Thanks already, Kest
I would recommend getting more experience before any taking any classes. I can recommend taking the AMGA CWI. I know others who have taken the SPI and more advanced curriculums who really found it was a wise investment.
The AMGA is reputable association, maybe even the industry standard at this point.
(This post was edited by MikeSaint on May 9, 2008, 12:06 AM)
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jt512
May 9, 2008, 5:38 AM
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j_ung wrote: majid_sabet wrote: IMO, becoming a certified on something without gaining enough experience prior to be proficient on the subject is basically worthless and it is just a piece of paper to hang on wall. Well said.
Yeah, but usually the certifying authority requires that you have the requisite experience before you can be considered for the certification.
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kest2703
May 9, 2008, 5:29 PM
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jt512
May 9, 2008, 5:40 PM
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kest2703 wrote: jt512 wrote: j_ung wrote: majid_sabet wrote: IMO, becoming a certified on something without gaining enough experience prior to be proficient on the subject is basically worthless and it is just a piece of paper to hang on wall. Well said. Yeah, but usually the certifying authority requires that you have the requisite experience before you can be considered for the certification. SPI requieres things like being able to climb 5.10a's comfortable and some other grades and so on. and well i have been teaching for a year now, and really enjoy it. and i am not the piece of paper kind of guy. i dont really care. i dont like plaques (except the one i got for eagle scout). for me its more or less that i will be moving in one or two years and would like to find a job as an instructor again. and well... pieces of paper have never helped anyone. and its more that they prove you have experience. so i dont really believe in this piece of paper crap either. so stop flaming me for it (jk i asked an opinion and this is what i got. ) so yeah.
Flamed you? What the fuck are you talking about. When I flame you, you'll know it. Thanks for mentioning that you were a Boy Scout. There's material in that.
Jay
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lupocanine
May 16, 2008, 7:58 PM
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Just because a person can't climb a 5.10 does not mean they don't know what they are doing. I had my back broke when a drunk driver hit me. I can't touch my toes because my back is fused. 5.10's are a little past what my body can handle anymore.
AMGA cert is better than the average here in Missouri. Here its buddy teaching a buddy and neither know the difference between climbing rope and hardware rope. With both of them learning only one belay method on the local plastic.
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pipsqueekspire
May 17, 2008, 7:10 AM
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I took this course almost 6 years ago when it was the TR SIte Manager Course and again to recert just recently. I felt that my experience took what I THOUGHT was a casual test from the DMV and forced you to tighten your seatbelt, don a helmet and haul ass around a course with out so much as tapping an orange cone.
It focused on rescue skills in a one pitch setting. Hauling, lowering, belay escapes, ascending etc. Time is a big factor in this course. For example, in ~30 minutes complete the following:
1) Set up two anchors you have never seen before, MAKE a harness for your "client" (not kidding- the smart people made a harness for themselves and gave away their own harness, "the silly client left the harness on the hood of the car 45 minute hike from here")
2) Let the client rap a tension releasable rappel, with a back up and you have only one rope (think about it- it can be done). The client gets their "t-shirt stuck". You then have to release the rap and take the client on the back up line. Get the shirt unstuck and then let them rap the rest of the way.
3) Convert your systems/anchor back into a TR mode. THEN the client climbs back up and gets "stuck" again! You then have to escape (you never should have been in the anchor in the first place but some times they just wanna see you do it)
4) Haul your client back up- I mean HAUL. If your test taking buddy is 200lbs, you gotta haul her butt back up without help. Z-pulleys, c-pulleys, what ever it takes.
That is just one scenario of a 3-4 scenario testing day. Most climbers can't even set up 2 gear anchors in 30 minutes.(Go time yourself from base of cliff back to base of cliff ready to climb in an area you have never seen before)
You gotta know your stuff.
Munters, Munter-mules, tension releasable rappels, prussiks, bowlines, cloves, double eights, carabiner break rappels, equalization, improvised harness, anchor sytems, anchors using only your climbing rope and 2 biners, ascending systems (withOUT a gri gri, aider, tibloc, etc) hauling systems 2:1, 3:1, 6:1 (Again, withOUT pulleys, autoblocks, jumars etc- just a few items you always have with you) All of this was covered at some point.
Those of you who think this is just a piece of paper I ask you to test yourself on all the skills I just mentioned. I bet VERY few people on RC.com could do all of those things in the scenario I describe safely, fewer of them could do it in 30 minutes. Maybe 1% of all climbers have ever even set up all the systems I am talking about. I would not blow this course off.
I cant imagine what a Level III Rock test is like...
Just a few thoughts....
-pip
(This post was edited by pipsqueekspire on May 17, 2008, 7:42 AM)
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socalclimber
May 17, 2008, 3:15 PM
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Sounds like the TR course has gotten better over time. They used to take anybody with a belay device. Some of the people coming out of that course had no business taking it in the first place.
As far AMGA goes, if you want to truly guide in this country, you'd better get your AMGA certs. The Park Service has pretty much embrassed them, and other Federal land management types are doing the same, for instance, the BLM, The Forrest Service etc.
The AMGA pretty much has a lock on the guiding industry here in the US. So you might as well take the time and money and do it if you really want to guide and get hired legitimately.
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phugganut
May 17, 2008, 5:36 PM
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kest2703 wrote: Good Day, ... Or can i download the test somewhere and take it, or can somebody "sign me off"???...
If you have all the skills & experience in the world, you can't just take the test. You MUST take the classes (& pay top-dollar for them) before they will allow you to test.
IMHO the AMGA seems to be primarily a self-serving organization. Their main purpose seems to be making & keeping themselves legitimate & necessary.
A necessary evil in this biz unfortunately. Maybe one day they will spend their efforts helping guides rather than milking them for cash and trying to advance their own goals, like making themselves necessary.
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ja1484
May 17, 2008, 5:56 PM
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phugganut wrote: kest2703 wrote: Good Day, ... Or can i download the test somewhere and take it, or can somebody "sign me off"???... If you have all the skills & experience in the world, you can't just take the test. You MUST take the classes (& pay top-dollar for them) before they will allow you to test. IMHO the AMGA seems to be primarily a self-serving organization. Their main purpose seems to be making & keeping themselves legitimate & necessary. A necessary evil in this biz unfortunately. Maybe one day they will spend their efforts helping guides rather than milking them for cash and trying to advance their own goals, like making themselves necessary.
I don't have a problem with the organization. They're a good organization with good standards, and AMGA guides have their shit together.
That said, you don't need a certification to be very capable in the things they teach.
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socalclimber
May 17, 2008, 7:11 PM
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ja1484 wrote: phugganut wrote: kest2703 wrote: Good Day, ... Or can i download the test somewhere and take it, or can somebody "sign me off"???... If you have all the skills & experience in the world, you can't just take the test. You MUST take the classes (& pay top-dollar for them) before they will allow you to test. IMHO the AMGA seems to be primarily a self-serving organization. Their main purpose seems to be making & keeping themselves legitimate & necessary. A necessary evil in this biz unfortunately. Maybe one day they will spend their efforts helping guides rather than milking them for cash and trying to advance their own goals, like making themselves necessary. I don't have a problem with the organization. They're a good organization with good standards, and AMGA guides have their shit together. That said, you don't need a certification to be very capable in the things they teach.
This is bad advice. Ignore it!
Your point is moot. It makes no difference what you think about the AMGA good, bad, or indifferent. You clearly have no understanding of what is happening in the American guide scene.
Stop handing out advice on things you don't know anything about.
To the OP:
As I have stated before, if you wish to make guiding your job, you really will benefit from getting the Top Rope Site Manager course as A MINIMUM. You will also need a Wilderness First Aid cert. at minimum, not to mention a valid CPR cert. Your best bet is to get a WFR (Wildernes First Responder) cert. It's around 80 hours, and about $800 to $1000 for the course depending on who you take it from. Make sure the course is sanctioned by the WMA (Wilderness Medical Associates). I would also not bother with the Red Cross CPR course. It's worthless. Check out the American Heart Association. They are the only accepted CPR course for medical professionals in the country (that I'm aware of).
There are certainly plenty of "guide schools" out there, but if you're smart, you will only want to work with the reputable ones. Especially if you want to be able to work year round for multiple schools when the weather changes from one locale to the next.
Simply put, if it comes down to you or another guide getting hired by a reputable operation, the other has his certs and shit together and you don't, guess who's getting hired and who isn't.
If you have any other questions let me know, I have a fair amount of background with this.
It all boils down to liability. No certs, huge liability, proper certs. limited liability. If you owned a guide school and your neck was on the legal chopping block, combined with a ton of money and time invested, which would you choose?
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ja1484
May 17, 2008, 8:38 PM
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socalclimber wrote: This is bad advice. Ignore it! Your point is moot. It makes no difference what you think about the AMGA good, bad, or indifferent. You clearly have no understanding of what is happening in the American guide scene. Stop handing out advice on things you don't know anything about.
Where exactly did I hand out any advice? You need to calm down. All I stated was that someone, anyone, be they a recreational climber or otherwise, could be competent with safety and rescue systems, even if they haven't gone through any certification process.
I wasn't telling the OP to get, not get, or not consider getting certified.
People around here really should learn to read before they fly off the handle. I'm quite aware of the increased emphasis on certs and liability in the recent past since the AMGA retooled.
I was responding to the previous poster's opinion of the AMGA being a "self serving organization".
(This post was edited by ja1484 on May 17, 2008, 8:46 PM)
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vegastradguy
May 17, 2008, 9:30 PM
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sheesh, that's some pretty emphatic advice, there socal.
at any rate, i should probably clarify a couple of things for you and the OP.
first and foremost, the TR Site Manager course is no longer a part of the AMGA cirriculum. It has essentially been changed to the Single Pitch Instructor course.
if you're going to really guide, though, i'd recommend working toward Rock Instructor, unless all you have around are single pitch climbs.
as for the WFR- the Wilderness Medicine Institute is one that i'd highly recommend. It's 80hrs, approximately $600, and includes a CPR cert.
i think socal is right on one hand- i think that the AMGA certification is something that is becoming more and more of a required standard for guiding in the u.s. on the other, though, i dont necessarily think that the AMGA is the only place you can become competent in the skills required for being a guide. it is however, probably the fastest way to do it, despite the cost.
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steady_climbing
May 17, 2008, 10:44 PM
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I suppose I will have to chime in here. From what I am gathering, you have minimal experience climbing outside.... In fact, I seriously doubt you have the required knowledge to even attend SPI. Get some real experience with a real mentor first.... Undesrstand that this "instruction" your giving on this half ass climbing wall should probably be taken for a grain of salt...
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socalclimber
May 17, 2008, 11:50 PM
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Well truth be told, minus the fact that the AMGA has again changed their course structure, the truth still remains the same. The requirements are rapidly becoming strict with regards to what it takes to get hired as a guide. AMGA certs are required at the very least by the senior of any guide school. Most insurance companies won't even talk to you much less give you a policy without it. The WFR (as I stated) is required for all guides as is the CPR.
This year we had a "rogue" seasonal ranger come through the park during the peak climbing season and pull 20 year veteran guides from the middle of classes, in front of their clients, and make them display their credentials. It was poorly handled. There were complaints, but believe me, those complaints fell on deaf ears.
Emphatic or otherwise, there was nothing inaccurate in my advice (minus the fact that the AMGA has changed their curriculum yet again). Frankly, I'm not really all that happy with the AMGA's position in the guide community. They have an absolute lock on the industry, they also have a monoply. They now largely control both the certification and the training process. But so it goes.
Oh, and let's not forget the AMGA is in love with the concept of changing their "systems" every few years or so. This way you have no choice but to dump out cash to stay "current".
The days of "hey I got a zillion pitches and years under my belt, I can guide for you" are coming to a close. As I stated in the last paragraph of my post, it's an issue of liability.
If you think this is bad, you would not believe what's happened to the Search And Rescue side of the world. It's even worse. Certifications have completely replaced qualifications.
Take it as you like, but it's time to pay to play if you want a paycheck attached.
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reno
May 18, 2008, 3:09 PM
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socalclimber wrote: Check out the American Heart Association. They are the only accepted CPR course for medical professionals in the country (that I'm aware of).
Wrong.
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socalclimber
May 18, 2008, 3:32 PM
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I stand corrected. Who else? I'm curious.
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majid_sabet
May 18, 2008, 3:51 PM
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socalclimber wrote: ja1484 wrote: phugganut wrote: kest2703 wrote: Good Day, ... Or can i download the test somewhere and take it, or can somebody "sign me off"???... If you have all the skills & experience in the world, you can't just take the test. You MUST take the classes (& pay top-dollar for them) before they will allow you to test. IMHO the AMGA seems to be primarily a self-serving organization. Their main purpose seems to be making & keeping themselves legitimate & necessary. A necessary evil in this biz unfortunately. Maybe one day they will spend their efforts helping guides rather than milking them for cash and trying to advance their own goals, like making themselves necessary. I don't have a problem with the organization. They're a good organization with good standards, and AMGA guides have their shit together. That said, you don't need a certification to be very capable in the things they teach. This is bad advice. Ignore it! Your point is moot. It makes no difference what you think about the AMGA good, bad, or indifferent. You clearly have no understanding of what is happening in the American guide scene. Stop handing out advice on things you don't know anything about. To the OP: As I have stated before, if you wish to make guiding your job, you really will benefit from getting the Top Rope Site Manager course as A MINIMUM. You will also need a Wilderness First Aid cert. at minimum, not to mention a valid CPR cert. Your best bet is to get a WFR (Wildernes First Responder) cert. It's around 80 hours, and about $800 to $1000 for the course depending on who you take it from. Make sure the course is sanctioned by the WMA (Wilderness Medical Associates). I would also not bother with the Red Cross CPR course. It's worthless. Check out the American Heart Association. They are the only accepted CPR course for medical professionals in the country ( that I'm aware of). There are certainly plenty of "guide schools" out there, but if you're smart, you will only want to work with the reputable ones. Especially if you want to be able to work year round for multiple schools when the weather changes from one locale to the next. Simply put, if it comes down to you or another guide getting hired by a reputable operation, the other has his certs and shit together and you don't, guess who's getting hired and who isn't. If you have any other questions let me know, I have a fair amount of background with this. It all boils down to liability. No certs, huge liability, proper certs. limited liability. If you owned a guide school and your neck was on the legal chopping block, combined with a ton of money and time invested, which would you choose?
Do you have any idea what you talking about ?
Are you really in charge of some volunteer Org.?
I hope you do not kill any one dude.
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reno
May 18, 2008, 4:46 PM
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socalclimber wrote: I stand corrected. Who else? I'm curious.
Many hospitals, EMS providers, and the like will accept a CPR certification from an organization called ASHI (American Safety and Health Institute.)
http://www.ashinstitute.org/
ASHI basically copied the American Heart stuff and put new wrapping on it. The AHA paid for and compiled tons of research. ASHI just read what the AHA came up with, and are thus able to offer the same course information at a substantially reduced cost.
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climbingaggie03
May 18, 2008, 5:22 PM
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My hospital accepted the CPR cert from my WMA WFR course. which is fantastic, cause it's the only CPR cert I know of that is good for 3 years.
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