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dynosore


May 28, 2008, 8:20 AM
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Grigri causes gear to rip?
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In yet another ATC v. Grigri thread, folks are once again claiming grigris are bad for trad belaying because they are less dynamic and can cause gear to rip. Does anyone have an actual example of this happening, where they think an ATC would have made the difference? I've never heard of this, but we've ALL heard of belayers futzing up and dropping people with an ATC (ever try to hold a factor 2 fall, it's not easy!), and it seems within the realm of possibility that your belayer could get a rock to the noggin, in which case a Grigri has obvious benefits.


brownie710


May 28, 2008, 8:39 AM
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i think it is personal preference overall.

I really consider gri-gri's to be a gym device and have rarely seen anyone on multipitch trad routes use them.

i'm not knocking folks that due but think an atc has more versatility in the outdoor world.

you can provide a soft catch with either but the mechanical component of the gri-gri makes for plenty of room to drop you partner on the deck.

you can always design a scenario where one or the other is the best one to have.

i.e., the rock knocking your belayer unconscious = gri gri (although i would wonder what the hell you would do with a unconscious belayer who now has you locked off while your 80' in the air?)

or an atc= you have to rap down on both strands to pull your rope

thats MHO


majid_sabet


May 28, 2008, 8:49 AM
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Re: [dynosore] Grigri causes gear to rip? [In reply to]
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dynosore wrote:
In yet another ATC v. Grigri thread, folks are once again claiming grigris are bad for trad belaying because they are less dynamic and can cause gear to rip. Does anyone have an actual example of this happening, where they think an ATC would have made the difference? I've never heard of this, but we've ALL heard of belayers futzing up and dropping people with an ATC (ever try to hold a factor 2 fall, it's not easy!), and it seems within the realm of possibility that your belayer could get a rock to the noggin, in which case a Grigri has obvious benefits.

Ohh my old friend Dyno is scared of GG cutting things up but do not worry,I will not share the GG's secrets in here.


granite_grrl


May 28, 2008, 8:56 AM
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Re: [brownie710] Grigri causes gear to rip? [In reply to]
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My husband has his belayer use a grigri on his project, which is a roof crack on gear. Its still his project because he kept falling at the crux. No, the gear did not blow even though a grigri was being used. Shocked

A grigri isn't quite as nice on multipitch, but still usable. And yes, it is possible to to rappel with a grigri, though better if two people have to rappel.

Bottom line: its a tool. There are better times to use it than others, and it can be just as easily misused as used well. It comes down to personal preferance and knowledge.


Partner j_ung


May 28, 2008, 8:57 AM
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Re: [dynosore] Grigri causes gear to rip? [In reply to]
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dynosore wrote:
In yet another ATC v. Grigri thread, folks are once again claiming grigris are bad for trad belaying because they are less dynamic and can cause gear to rip. Does anyone have an actual example of this happening, where they think an ATC would have made the difference? I've never heard of this, but we've ALL heard of belayers futzing up and dropping people with an ATC (ever try to hold a factor 2 fall, it's not easy!), and it seems within the realm of possibility that your belayer could get a rock to the noggin, in which case a Grigri has obvious benefits.

In a normal tradding situation, I think the difference is probably academic. But the Italian Mountaineering Club did show that Gri-gri use can result in higher impact forces on both the climber and the top gear (searching for a link, but no luck yet). And for what it's worth, I can offer anecdotal experience being caught by both to back that up.

But when does it actually become an issue? Probably not until the gear is marginal. Add to this a belayer who can't jump to absorb force, for example at a multi-pitch belay and maybe throw in potential for high-factor falls, and yeah, I think I'd use a more conventional device.

Edit: Italian ALPINE Club, not Italian Mountaineering Club. I couldn't find the test, but here's text from a conclusion paper that the Alpine Club of Canada later published. I bolded those conclusions that specifically mention static devices, such as Gri-gris.

In reply to:
NOTES FROM THE WORKING GROUP ON BELAY METHODS
UIAA SAFETY COMMISSION

Introduction

The Italian Commission for Material and Techniques (CMT) of the Italian Alpine Club (CAI) has been at the forefront of investigating belay methods for a number of years. They carry out their research at a test tower in Padova and at a carefully surveyed rock face, where the topography as well as the location of every protection point (runner) is precisely known. The latter allows the calculation of the friction in the system (as the rope angles change) and thus the tension in the rope as it changes from one protection point to another (chain multiplication factor; force ratio at belayer and top runner). This then permits the calculation of the effective fall factor. The Commission is also developing a theoretical model of belaying.

During the tests numerous parameters are recorded, among them: rope lengths and angles from runner to runner to the falling mass (geometry of safety chain); distance from brake to hand; free fall height; mass of belayer (operator); belay device and technique used; operator position (hanging or standing); stance load; load on last runner; total slippage in the brake and hand; amount of operator lifting (from a standing or hanging position); theoretical (or geometrical) fall factor; force used in holding the rope.

Various belay techniques are employed. The belay device can be attached directly to the operator (body belay), to a fixed point (bolt at the stance) or the belay triangle (an equalizing sling from two stance anchors), while the operator may be attached to the belay triangle or a fixed point. In addition the rope from the brake may be clipped into the belay triangle or a fixed point (dummy runner) as it passes to the leader.

The 'body' has a mass of 80 kg; the fall heights varied from 4 to 12 m and the theoretical fall factors between 0.2 and 0.7. The rope was replaced after no more than two fall tests. The CMT also uses stunt men (climbers with a lot of nerve) for some of the tests instead of a mass.

It should be noted that the tests are only done for pull up. The fall factor two situation, where the leader falls directly on the operator, has not been investigated. It should be kept in mind that for such a scenario most belay methods would fail, because there is insufficient friction in the system to stop the fall.

The main belay devices used are various Sticht types (tuber, ATC) the Grigri, and similar predominantly static devices, as well as the Munter hitch.

It is not surprising that the meetings of the Working Group on Belay Methods of the UIAA Safety Commission have taken place in and around Padova. Canada has participated in the last three meetings. While there are still many questions to be answered, one can report on a few of the findings (in no particular order).

1. The greatest variable in the magnitude of the force at the top runner is operator behaviour. Values can vary between 20 to 50 percent. Hand pressure and position, reaction time, position of operator and body mass have significant influences.
2. All belay devices seem to work, although the force in the top runner may vary.
3. The force in the top runner is surprisingly small (even if there is only one runner, i.e. very little system friction). It appears that the force in the top runner will rarely reach 10 kN (it did not even come close in the tests). The values fall mostly between 3 and 6 kN. This is independent of fall height (theoretical fall factor). Note again that operator behaviour has a major influence.
4. The 'static' devices such as the Grigri (there may be rope slip through the device of 2 to 5 cm, while it is 50 to 120 cm for a dynamic device) may produce twice the force on the last runner than a dynamic device.
5. The lifting of the operator may reduce the force on the top runner, possibly by as much as 10 % and even more. It is again influenced by operator behaviour. Sometimes no significant reduction could be determined.
6. Lifting of the operator beyond 30 to 40 cm has no influence on the magnitude of the force in the top runner.
7. Lifting of the operator may increase the stance load. These forces are, however, not very significant. Generally from two to three kN except for the 'static' devices, which could produce twice these values. The latter were always attached to the fixed anchor, because of injury concerns.
8. The force on the top runner increases with the mass of the operator.
9. It is highly recommended that a dummy runner is used at the belay.

A final word of caution: while many climbers seem to prefer the body belay in the hope of reducing forces on the last runner, the danger of injury may negate this advantage, particularly in alpine, rock, environment. Several injuries to the operators - and they are very experienced - have occurred because of the uncontrolled lifting. One has to keep in mind that they know when the mass is dropping. Now consider when this force hits without this awareness.

The ACC library has a video (with Italian commentary) from the CMT showing some of the belay testing. It is a few years old, but does give an idea what happens to the operator when holding a fall using a body belay.

In number 7 above, I'm not entirely sure what they mean by "stance load."


(This post was edited by j_ung on May 28, 2008, 9:34 AM)


jeremy11


May 28, 2008, 9:47 AM
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brownie710 wrote:
i.e., the rock knocking your belayer unconscious = gri gri (although i would wonder what the hell you would do with a unconscious belayer who now has you locked off while your 80' in the air?)

same thing with either the grigri or an atc - build an anchor, tie your end of the rope into it, rap the single strand, clipping around the pro in between, then provide appropriate medical attention to your belayer.
Take a wilderness first aid or wilderness first responder course!!!!

I always prefer using an atc style belay for leading, and only really use a grigri for rope solo leading trad and aid. I usually add a screamer into the bottom anchor for a more dynamic catch. You could do this for normal belaying with a grigri, but that would put it out kindof far from the belayer's harness......


TradEddie


May 28, 2008, 10:00 AM
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Re: [dynosore] Grigri causes gear to rip? [In reply to]
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dynosore wrote:
folks are once again claiming grigris are bad for trad belaying because they are less dynamic and can cause gear to rip

By "Folks", you mean the manufacturer, right?

From the Grigri Specific Notice on Petzl's website: "This product is a belay device for the leader or second on a rope. It has been developed for indoor wall climbing or for climbing on well-protected sport routes where anchors meet the UIAA standard. It should not be used for mountaineering or adventure climbing."

Try some tests with the Fall Simulator on the Petzl website with some smaller nut strengths and see what happens when you compare a grigri with a tube device.

Be safe.

TE


brownie710


May 28, 2008, 10:02 AM
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done the wfr, certainly a must have. thanks for the beta on the self rescue. do you work at a religious camp or a camp for at-risk youth?


chossmonkey


May 28, 2008, 2:46 PM
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Re: [TradEddie] Grigri causes gear to rip? [In reply to]
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TradEddie wrote:
Try some tests with the Fall Simulator on the Petzl website with some smaller nut strengths and see what happens when you compare a grigri with a tube device.

While a fun toy, the fall simulator is far from a representation of the real world.


guangzhou


May 29, 2008, 12:17 AM
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Re: [chossmonkey] Grigri causes gear to rip? [In reply to]
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I was a late comer to the GriGri, but over the last few years I have come to love it in almost every conceivable situation.

I do lead routes on gear while my partner belays with a GriGri, same is true with sport.

I really love the grigri when I belay my partners on Multi-pitch routes. I often just place it directly on the belay and take myself out of the system. Nice when my partner struggles on those routes or has to hang for what ever reason.

On Big Walls and Aid routes, I use the GriGri to back up my jumaring. I don't tie back-up knots every 20 feet anymore. I just use the grigri.

I use the GriGri when I bolt routes on rappel. Makes it easy to hang on the rope and very convenient.

Is the Grigri the only tool, no, it's anice addition to to wide selection of tools I have in my pack.

Cheers
Eman


healyje


May 29, 2008, 12:37 AM
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Re: [j_ung] Grigri causes gear to rip? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
NOTES FROM THE WORKING GROUP ON BELAY METHODS
UIAA SAFETY COMMISSION

...

4. The 'static' devices such as the Grigri (there may be rope slip through the device of 2 to 5 cm, while it is 50 to 120 cm for a dynamic device) may produce twice the force on the last runner than a dynamic device.

...

Wow, have to call complete bullshite on this - and I don't give a rats ass who claims to have done the study.

'50 to 120 cm' is roughly 20-47 inches of rope. In 34 years of catching lots of long and hard lead falls - including a few falls directly on me before a first piece could be placed - I've never experienced rope slippage of that magnitude. Ever. An inch or two max due mainly to stretch through the device, but that's it.

Many, many of those falls were even on hip belays augmented with a single non-locking biner on the harness on the side of the rope coming from the leader - same deal, completely locked off, no slippage other than regular rope stretch.

From straight stitch plates to today's fancy ATC's, if anyone experiences anything like these kinds of 'slippages' then they aren't locking off the device or braking the rope over their hip. If these sorts of stats were a regular occurence we'd be seeing no end to second and third degree burns of folks hands on their way to becoming competent belayers.


(This post was edited by healyje on May 29, 2008, 12:41 AM)


reg


May 29, 2008, 5:05 AM
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Re: [dynosore] Grigri causes gear to rip? [In reply to]
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"gri gri causes gear to rip!" - i don't think so. gri gri causes poorly placed gear to rip. whats that old story about some early hardmen from yos try to yank gear out using somebody's VW bug! bumpers were being yanked off the car, cams distroyed and forever "in situ". Angelic is that a halo? looks like a punk rocker with a paper clip through his head.

seeya


notapplicable


May 29, 2008, 5:05 AM
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Re: [dynosore] Grigri causes gear to rip? [In reply to]
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dynosore wrote:
In yet another ATC v. Grigri thread, folks are once again claiming grigris are bad for trad belaying because they are less dynamic and can cause gear to rip.

Whether an ATC always gives a more dynamic belay or not is only half the equation. With the ATC you have the option of safely letting the rope run and providing a "soft catch" even while anchored to the wall. Again, its about versatility.

dynosore wrote:
I've never heard of this, but we've ALL heard of belayers futzing up and dropping people with an ATC


Sure we have all heard of climbers being dropped with an ATC but we have damn sure also heard of climbers getting dropped with a GriGri. I would bet a GriGri gets threaded backwards a hell of alot more often than a rock knocks the belayer unconscious, causing the leader to fall.



edit - spelling


(This post was edited by notapplicable on May 29, 2008, 5:07 AM)


Partner j_ung


May 29, 2008, 5:37 AM
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Re: [healyje] Grigri causes gear to rip? [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
In reply to:
NOTES FROM THE WORKING GROUP ON BELAY METHODS
UIAA SAFETY COMMISSION

...

4. The 'static' devices such as the Grigri (there may be rope slip through the device of 2 to 5 cm, while it is 50 to 120 cm for a dynamic device) may produce twice the force on the last runner than a dynamic device.

...

Wow, have to call complete bullshite on this - and I don't give a rats ass who claims to have done the study.

'50 to 120 cm' is roughly 20-47 inches of rope. In 34 years of catching lots of long and hard lead falls - including a few falls directly on me before a first piece could be placed - I've never experienced rope slippage of that magnitude. Ever. An inch or two max due mainly to stretch through the device, but that's it.

Many, many of those falls were even on hip belays augmented with a single non-locking biner on the harness on the side of the rope coming from the leader - same deal, completely locked off, no slippage other than regular rope stretch.

From straight stitch plates to today's fancy ATC's, if anyone experiences anything like these kinds of 'slippages' then they aren't locking off the device or braking the rope over their hip. If these sorts of stats were a regular occurence we'd be seeing no end to second and third degree burns of folks hands on their way to becoming competent belayers.

Seems excessive, doesn't it? Take it with a grain of salt. Like I said, I don't believe it's a common issue, only in narrow circumstances... the quote isn't the actual test report, it's a translated summary, blah, blah, blah. And, lest we forget, the number-1 conclusion is:

In reply to:
1. The greatest variable in the magnitude of the force at the top runner is operator behaviour. Values can vary between 20 to 50 percent. Hand pressure and position, reaction time, position of operator and body mass have significant influences.

The point is this: if there's already an uncommonly narrow margin for error, a Gri-gri probably narrows it even more. Do you disagree? If so, I'm listening.


(This post was edited by j_ung on May 29, 2008, 5:40 AM)


Partner cracklover


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Re: [reg] Grigri causes gear to rip? [In reply to]
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reg wrote:
"gri gri causes gear to rip!" - i don't think so. gri gri causes poorly placed gear to rip. whats that old story about some early hardmen from yos try to yank gear out using somebody's VW bug! bumpers were being yanked off the car, cams distroyed and forever "in situ". Angelic is that a halo? looks like a punk rocker with a paper clip through his head.

seeya

Hey Reg, you're welcome to use whatever device you want, I don't give a shit. But maybe you don't do long climbs where you either *have* to move fast and can't take the time to place gear every few feet, and/or the only available gear is marginal, and/or you're forced to do moves near your limit over gear which, if it blows, will be a very bad thing. It's fine if those aren't things you do. But if you do, you'll want the security of knowing that your partner is both practiced in giving dynamic belays, and is physically capable of doing so.

Cheers,

GO


reg


May 29, 2008, 7:12 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Grigri causes gear to rip? [In reply to]
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gabe - i am saying i don't think the semi-dynamic belay afforded by using the grigri adds enough force to pull good gear. i understand what you say about wanting, hell - needing, a soft catch in the situations you refer to so i don't understand your issue with what i said. you're advocating soft catch/dynamic belay tecniques - correct? i do as well - i don't like grigri's. R


dynosore


May 29, 2008, 7:31 AM
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Re: [reg] Grigri causes gear to rip? [In reply to]
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So....just as I suspected, all this talk of Grigris causing gear to rip is theoretical BS, and no one has a real world example.

As far as dropping people, let's hope by the time we learn to trad climb that we have partners/belayers that aren't gumby enough to drop us with a Grigri. However, no amount of belaying competency means anything if the belayer takes a rock to the head, or you factor 2 and ropeburn their hands.....in which case I like my odds with the Grigri far better.


(This post was edited by dynosore on May 29, 2008, 7:32 AM)


dynosore


May 29, 2008, 7:35 AM
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Re: [healyje] Grigri causes gear to rip? [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
In reply to:
NOTES FROM THE WORKING GROUP ON BELAY METHODS
UIAA SAFETY COMMISSION

...

4. The 'static' devices such as the Grigri (there may be rope slip through the device of 2 to 5 cm, while it is 50 to 120 cm for a dynamic device) may produce twice the force on the last runner than a dynamic device.

...

Wow, have to call complete bullshite on this - and I don't give a rats ass who claims to have done the study.

'50 to 120 cm' is roughly 20-47 inches of rope. In 34 years of catching lots of long and hard lead falls - including a few falls directly on me before a first piece could be placed - I've never experienced rope slippage of that magnitude. Ever. An inch or two max due mainly to stretch through the device, but that's it.

Many, many of those falls were even on hip belays augmented with a single non-locking biner on the harness on the side of the rope coming from the leader - same deal, completely locked off, no slippage other than regular rope stretch.

From straight stitch plates to today's fancy ATC's, if anyone experiences anything like these kinds of 'slippages' then they aren't locking off the device or braking the rope over their hip. If these sorts of stats were a regular occurence we'd be seeing no end to second and third degree burns of folks hands on their way to becoming competent belayers.

While I haven't been climbing even half as long as you, I too balked at the 120cm slippage claim. I'd hate to have 4 (or even 2!) feet of rope slip through my hands as I tried to arrest a hard fall. Skin graft anyone?


Partner cracklover


May 29, 2008, 7:38 AM
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Re: [reg] Grigri causes gear to rip? [In reply to]
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Okay reg, sounds like I misunderstood you. I thought you were suggesting that "if the leader would just place good gear in the first place..." Which sounded pretty silly to me.

GO


reg


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Re: [cracklover] Grigri causes gear to rip? [In reply to]
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well - truth be known - i was saying that - sort of. the context i was thinking about was refering to inexpeirenced trad leaders which is what struck me as i read the post. thanks for yankin the blinders off. grigri's on sketch terrain - never good.


reg


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ya gotta ah point


evanwish


May 29, 2008, 10:26 AM
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well i took a 60' fall while on a grigri, one piece popped but it would have popped anyways...
(i stupidly already used all my gear of that size and could only get 2 lobes in the crack)

as far as catching a fall.. the biggest fall i've ever caught (and with an atc) was 20'
I can't imagine how hard it was to catch a 60 footer (and without the extra braking power)

[maybe i'm wrong..]


healyje


May 29, 2008, 11:03 AM
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Catching a 60 ft fall on an ATC is no big deal and requires no 'extra' braking power than any other fall when the rope locked off in the device and braked over your hip.

As far as gear ripping goes - good gear isn't going to rip due to a belay device - marginal gear is a whole different story. I frequently free climb over #2 and #3 ball nuts, Crack'N Ups, and equalized nests of RP's and have fallen on all of the above multiple times (six #3 ball nut falls in one session last fall). An auto locking device would be less than desirable in such situations. I own several normal and modded grigris and an Eddy, but they've only ever been used for roped soloing in combination with a screamer on the anchor. For regular belaying, I use an ATC.


CaptainPolution


May 29, 2008, 5:14 PM
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evanwish wrote:
well i took a 60' fall while on a grigri, one piece popped but it would have popped anyways...
(i stupidly already used all my gear of that size and could only get 2 lobes in the crack)

as far as catching a fall.. the biggest fall i've ever caught (and with an atc) was 20'
I can't imagine how hard it was to catch a 60 footer (and without the extra braking power)

[maybe i'm wrong..]

lol you still placed that cam eventhough you knew it wouldnt do anything?


jt512


May 29, 2008, 5:42 PM
Post #25 of 62 (5694 views)
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Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21904

Re: [reg] Grigri causes gear to rip? [In reply to]
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reg wrote:
gabe - i am saying i don't think the semi-dynamic belay afforded by using the grigri adds enough force to pull good gear.

It doesn't. But the gear can't always be "good." If you're leading on bad gear, which you sometimes have to, then getting a dynamic catch can be the difference between life and death.

Jay

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