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Partner oldsalt


Jun 2, 2008, 7:22 PM
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Which Would You Fall On?
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I placed the nut in the hole and my partner Jimmy critiqued it. (I'll give the critique below.)

Jimmy slung the horn and said that the nut was not trustworthy. I am curious... which would you prefer to fall on, if you had to choose only one placement, and why?

A little about Sand Rock: Sand Rock has sandstone and various forms of igneous rock, formed with heat and pressure. The place looks like masses of conglomerates with shells and sand, packed around poured blocks and odd shapes of harder rock.

The harder stuff forms horns and crowns that have been exposed by weathering over the years. I have slung horns in the past and will again, but I worry about the slings getting worn or even cut if they work against the rock.

Jimmy's Critique (Jimmy, let me know if I messed this up):

The thin piece with the hole that I used to feed the cable through cannot be trusted. It is brittle and too thin. The sling is safer because it is securely hitched to a larger piece of rock.


healyje


Jun 2, 2008, 7:27 PM
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If there was nothing else I'd take the nut - but in this case in an either / or situation I'd take the slung horn every time. if I was worried about the sling on the horn I'd do both and make the nut sacrificial loading a bit before the horn.


taydude


Jun 2, 2008, 7:34 PM
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I think i would have looked for options in that crack to the left, unless that horn is really thick( it looks a little thin to me :/ hard to tell in the picture ). the nut placement looks scary, did you give that a good yank? it looks like it could snap right off.


coastal_climber


Jun 2, 2008, 7:34 PM
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Same as Healyje. The stopper has practically no surface contact, putting the load on a small part of the rock. The slung chickenhead = bomber, (depending on rock quality).

Plus you sort of answered your own question:

oldsalt wrote:
The thin piece with the hole that I used to feed the cable through cannot be trusted. It is brittle and too thin. The sling is safer because it is securely hitched to a larger piece of rock.


>Cam


doz


Jun 2, 2008, 7:39 PM
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I would not want to take a whip on that nut. I agree with your bro about it being to thin, and from the rock type/description it makes it even more dodgy in my mind. But, I am looking at a photo not at the actual rock, hard to be to definitive. As to the sling as far as I can tell it looks like a much better choice. If you are worried about thrashing the sling get a few 1 tubular nylon slings they are tough.

Doz


coastal_climber


Jun 2, 2008, 7:40 PM
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Those BD sewn slings are pretty solid, and durable.


>Cam


GeneralBenson


Jun 2, 2008, 7:59 PM
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I guess my answer would be, why not both? If they're both dodgy, then throw them both in. It looks like neither one is dependant on the other, so it's sort of redundant. I'm also assuming that what looks like an obvious crack to the left, is really just a dark shadow and the thing in front of it is just a flake?


coolcat83


Jun 2, 2008, 8:14 PM
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horn. but you get points for creativity on the nut, why not equalize them both if they are independantly sketchy? also was there nothing in the crack? looks like a possible tricam placement. maybe sling through the hole if it's smooth? would put different forces on the rock (more distributed less chance of boring through?), depending on things that i can't see from the photo might be an option too.


socalclimber


Jun 2, 2008, 8:15 PM
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Hmmm. I wouldn't be in any hurry to judge either of these placements based on the photo above. Especially since you can't really see anything.

I do have to question what was wrong with sticking a cam in that crack on the right. Did you not have enough or the right gear?


Partner oldsalt


Jun 2, 2008, 8:43 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
I do have to question what was wrong with sticking a cam in that crack on the right. Did you not have enough or the right gear?

Right on, socal!

In the conversation/exchange with Jimmy apres climbing, the light went on in my head, and I will be a better gear leader for it. Up until then when I looked for a placement, I zeroed in on the first protectable feature and stopped there. I didn't even realize that I was doing it.

I spotted the hole and my entire focus shifted to that placement. I zipped the curve hex in and thought, "What a neat placement."

I now realize that I need to spot several, if not all, possibilities and target the best for that point in the climb. If I am sketched, the first one might be really attractive. Sometimes, that is the best choice - the one you can get in. I was far from sketched on this 5.6, so I can only plead temporary placement blindness.

Blindness be gone!


knieveltech


Jun 2, 2008, 9:19 PM
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C, none of the above? The thread-through with the nut definitely looks cool but fragile, more like something nifty to leave for your 2nd to chuckle at and clean than actual pro. The chickenhead looks pretty bomber, but what about the horizontal to the left? That looks plenty deep enough for a nice cam (when in doubt, cram a #1 link cam in and keep trucking), tricam, or maybe a hex placement (depending on how kinky you are). The thing on the right looks like a shallow flare, not much of a crack to work with there.


bender


Jun 2, 2008, 9:30 PM
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jimmey right,
the sling relies on 20 to 3o times more mass of that walls stone as compared to that wire

nonethe less that sling could be improved with a bit of cinching up


majid_sabet


Jun 2, 2008, 9:32 PM
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18 kn of webbing around a rock vs a 7 kn of nut in a hole

you do the math


gt29905


Jun 2, 2008, 9:36 PM
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Which route is this?


Upperlimits


Jun 3, 2008, 8:01 AM
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I'll take the sling everytime. I'd take it over anything else there and I'd fall on it all day long without a worry.

That nut is completely sketchy in sandstone. In Granite it might pass. In sandstone it's going to make that rock explode and blow if you fall on it.

I always prefer a slung chickenhead over anything else. Simple and cheap pro. 22kn. It's hard to beat that.

Stay safe,
Upperlimits


sungam


Jun 3, 2008, 8:21 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
18 kn of webbing around a rock vs a 7 kn of nut in a hole

you do the math
don't be silly, major. niether placement woulhold anywhere near that force, nor would you create it. I've whipped onto a size 1 bd micro wire (2kn) 3 times in a row and it never broke, and I way over 200lbs.

-MagnuS


reg


Jun 3, 2008, 8:23 AM
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hindsight being 20/20 - looks like the hex would have worked in the horizontal as well as it seems to open as one looks left. my first thought was why not both - doesn't look like you were hangin by a pinky lock and had to move. R


jman


Jun 3, 2008, 8:53 AM
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If I had to choose only one I'd take the horn. Assuming this is high enough where the majority of load from a fall is vertical, IMO there just seems to be more rock at the horn to withstand the force.


scotty1974


Jun 3, 2008, 9:02 AM
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It's a little tough to tell from the photo, but I probably would avoid having that 'biner edged on the rock like that. In a perfect world I wouldn't want to whip and be the one in a million chance biner failure. So I would go with the horn or the crack on the right.


majid_sabet


Jun 3, 2008, 9:14 AM
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sungam wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
18 kn of webbing around a rock vs a 7 kn of nut in a hole

you do the math
don't be silly, major. niether placement woulhold anywhere near that force, nor would you create it. I've whipped onto a size 1 bd micro wire (2kn) 3 times in a row and it never broke, and I way over 200lbs.


-MagnuS

I did not say if they can hold that much forces or not but wire vs webbing ( like what he shows). webbing wins every time.


jt512


Jun 3, 2008, 9:34 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
18 kn of webbing around a rock vs a 7 kn of nut in a hole

you do the math

Ok, but should I divide or subtract?

Jay


jt512


Jun 3, 2008, 9:37 AM
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sungam wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
18 kn of webbing around a rock vs a 7 kn of nut in a hole

you do the math
don't be silly, major. niether placement woulhold anywhere near that force, nor would you create it. I've whipped onto a size 1 bd micro wire (2kn) 3 times in a row and it never broke, and I way over 200lbs.

You can unquestionably generate 7 kN of force on an anchor in a lead fall.

Jay


dingus


Jun 3, 2008, 9:43 AM
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socalclimber wrote:
Hmmm. I wouldn't be in any hurry to judge either of these placements based on the photo above. Especially since you can't really see anything.

Exactly my thoughts.

If the horn was bomber though, I'd go with that (general rule of thumb, not that horn in particular).

I like to save my nuts, nawmean?

Besides, slinging natural pro is just plain fuggin COOL MAN.

DMT


dingus


Jun 3, 2008, 9:47 AM
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oldsalt wrote:
Blindness be gone!

I've always found tunnel vision tendency was strongly influenced by fear and anxeity.

One of the little fear management techniques Arno Illgner speaks about is sorta like... stand up straight, chin up, chest out, eyes open, face relaxed, BE OPEN TO YOUR ENVIRONMENT, be accepting of what you see.'

Or something like that. You get the gist. Opening yourself up to the possibilities in spite of your fears is friggin hard to do.

I would suggest this will be an on-going issue for the rest of your climbing career. When you feel yourself tense and scared, that is when you are most likely to tunnel vision and ignore the wider possibilities around you... when just the opposite is what is necessary.

Cheers
DMT


saxfiend


Jun 3, 2008, 9:49 AM
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Hi Steve -- as you've already surmised, there's plenty enough options for pro just within the narrow frame of the photo that the captured hex was the least desirable. I love placements like that when the rock is solid, but in this case I think your partner is right, it could well have snapped off.

Regarding your concerns about the sling getting worn or cut, it doesn't appear likely to me. However, instead of tying the overhand you have here (or is it a figure 8?), I probably would have girth-hitched the sling around the horn and snugged it up to minimize movement and rubbing. If you've got it extended properly, it's not going to experience such stress anyway.

gt29905 wrote:
Which route is this?
It's got to be Knob Wall (5.6); fun route, eats pro.

JL

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