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zan
Jun 12, 2008, 5:52 PM
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I'm heading off on my first trad trip in August (Yosemite/Tuolumne) and although I am super psyched I'm also a little nervous because, as the saying goes, "Trad is serious. You can die." I've been climbing on and off for 5 years but only bouldering for the first four. This last year I got serious about routes and am working on breaking through my 5.10c barrier. When my climbing partner suggested we go trad Yosemite I said, "Cool! Sure!" Even though at the time I had no idea what trad was.
So far, in order to prevent death, I have: taken a 6 hr class on how to place pro, another on self-rescue techniques, bought a book on trad by Heidi Pesterfield, and watched lots of climbing porn to build up my confidence (read: "People do fall on gear and live. You don't want to fall, but still.") My partner has more experience than I do, crucially he has done trad before (leading and following) and also took a trad class recently. We are planning on a practice trip to the Gunks in July and a trip to Squamish in early October if I survive and enjoy Yosemite.
At any rate, I just want some advice from folks on how to a) live, b) avoid stupid newbie mistakes c) train for the trip in terms of skill/technique/strength etc and d) be an awesome second (the idea is he'll lead all the climbs because I'm not confident enough -- even though he keeps saying, "Nah, you'll lead some").
Oh, and, my folks offered to buy me a new rope for my birthday ... any particular kind I should get for trad?
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granite_grrl
Jun 12, 2008, 6:13 PM
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zan wrote: as the saying goes, "Trad is serious. You can die."
While it can be true, I wasn't aware that this was a saying.
Have you and your partner done a lot of gear climbing together? Perhaps you two should get a system together before you head out there.
Oh, and relax a little. You're going to pop something if you keep on like that.
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zan
Jun 12, 2008, 6:18 PM
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I don't know how widely used it is, all I know is I was at the gym, hanging out, top-roping and talking to some friends about the upcoming trip (they all think I'm nuts) when one looked over at me and said, "You know what they say, 'Trad is serious. You can die.'" Maybe he was making fun of me? Entirely possible.
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morlebeke
Jun 12, 2008, 6:20 PM
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I'm sure this will garner much hyperbole and yards of certain death for you. I hear if you just yank on your gear when you set it you will know if it's good...
<*dripping sarcasm due to another thread here*>
honestly take as many gunks trips as possible between now and then, assuming it's reasonably close for weekend trips (no mention of your locale). Spend a weekend climbing 5.2's and .3's and setting tons of gear, getting to know what fits where etc. John Long's climbing anchors is a good one too. when you start to feel some confidence splurge for a guide, someone who REALLY knows good placements as it seems your buddy may not be overly experienced either. I really think this is crucial to have someone very experienced critique you. really get as much time in with someone very experienced as much as possible.
also recognize that leading trad with bolt anchors is a different level than setting your own gear anchors. I'd be more willing to second someone a little inexperienced if I knew the anchors were bomber at least.
to be a good second you need to be able to lead belay blindfolded, as there are many routes you won't see your leader through most of the climb. know your partner well, too. my regular partner and I barely need to call out to each other, I can tell where he's at on a route, when he's off belay, when I'm on belay, etc., just by how the rope behaves. Such as when he pulls a short burst of rope up, faster than he'd be able to climb, he's clipping himself off and he'll be off belay soon. (I never take him off belay until I hear him say so, or if communication is impossible I'll feed the whole length of rope out through my belay device if need be). When he pulls up all the rope and gets to me, then he'll be putting me on belay. after that, the next cinch up of the rope will be me being on belay. that sort of thing. as a second you also need to rack all the gear back the way your leader wants it. help your leader with rope management and route finding but don't question his/her judgement beyond that. you want to maintain your leader's confidence, not break it down. imo the second also carries the pack if you're doing longer routes with water/food.
there's a start, I'm sure others will chime in
(This post was edited by morlebeke on Jun 12, 2008, 6:22 PM)
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zan
Jun 12, 2008, 6:27 PM
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morlebeke wrote: honestly take as many gunks trips as possible between now and then, assuming it's reasonably close for weekend trips (no mention of your locale). ... when you start to feel some confidence splurge for a guide, someone who REALLY knows good placements as it ... I'd be more willing to second someone a little inexperienced if I knew the anchors were bomber at least.
Thanks for the advice!
The gunks are close enough for weekend trips, so no worries there. I am hoping to get up there at least twice in July but we both have wicked busy schedules so it can be a challenge to find time.
As far as a guide and bomber anchors goes ... part of that trad class we took was creating anchors with gear, I think we did that for a good two or three hours solid. There was a guide there and it was just me and my partner so we got a lot of attention and critiquing in. The guide noted that my partner built consistently bomber anchors so I think I'm as confident as I can be in his ability on that one.
I hear you on communication too -- we're gonna work out a system, the Heidi Pesterfield book I got has a good bit about that.
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shimanilami
Jun 12, 2008, 6:27 PM
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I'm sensing a Royal Arches epic in the making.
If multipitch, bring your bivy kit (e.g. headlamp, space blanket, etc.).
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zan
Jun 12, 2008, 6:30 PM
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I'm anti epic.
I always carry two headlamps on adventures but I wasn't going to bring anything to bivy with. Stupid idea? I just figure that we'd bail sooner than attempt to finish something with night falling.
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zeke_sf
Jun 12, 2008, 6:36 PM
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zan wrote: I'm anti epic. I always carry two headlamps on adventures but I wasn't going to bring anything to bivy with. Stupid idea? I just figure that we'd bail sooner than attempt to finish something with night falling.
If you are indeed climbing it, Royal Arches is difficult to bail on, as you essentially traverse upwards to the rap route and there are no rap anchors, per se, on the route itself. So, read the topo! And take two ropes to rap Royal Arches because through personal experience (and a friend's) I know that one 60m rope makes for a hectic descent.
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shimanilami
Jun 12, 2008, 6:58 PM
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Things don't always go according to plan, especially when you're climbing long, popular, moderate climbs in the Yosemite high country. Weather changes, incompetent parties above or below you, underestimating time requirements, and other problems always seem to surface. Without more experience in knowing how to avoid these, there's a good chance that you'll get screwed at some point.
You'll have fun no matter what, but I'd suggest that for newer trad climbers like yourselves, it's better to be safe than sorry. I'm not saying you should bring a ledge, a sleeping bag, and a stove. But it would be wise to bring an extra layer of clothes, headlamps, perhaps a space blanket ... I've got a kit about the size of a softball for just this purpose. Even when I don't use it, I'm glad I've got it just in case.
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zan
Jun 12, 2008, 7:01 PM
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Sensible enough. Can't argue with that. Will assemble a similar kit.
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blakester
Jun 12, 2008, 7:09 PM
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I GUARANTEE you will have a much easier, safer, and fun time if you go to Squamish in August, then Yos in October.
This would let you go to a less-crowded, less intimidating, and less greasy area first. Both trips would likely then feature weather in the 70s-80s with sun.
Going to Yos in August (for your first trad climbing), then Squamish in October is a recipe for heat-induced epics followed by a cold and rainy trip to Canada.
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donald949
Jun 12, 2008, 11:15 PM
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Lots of good advise here. Let me repeat the idea of studying ahead of time how and where you can bail from a route you want to climb.
Sounds like you've been studing and practicing, which is good.
Aren't there any real climbers at your gym? Ok let me rephrase, aren't there any climbers with real world trad experience at your gym? Offer to take them on your gunks trip, ie you drive and cover gas if they help with the how to of gear and anchors.
Now trad is not all that to be scared of. When I was young man of much time and little gear, trad was all we had. Sure people talked about sport, but there just wasn't any sport climbing around that we knew of. Also, just don't jump right on the hardest/longest line you can do. Start easy and short, build up to harder and longer. Figure out how long it takes to place pro and build an anchor on a couple of pitches. I remember my first all gear lead. I got 40 feet up a 60 foot crack and I got sewing machine leg so bad I had to lower off before going back up to finish the lead! Also, look for a route that has bolt anchors next to cracks at the belays. Lead the crack on gear, see how much gear you have left to build an anchor, then back it up with the bolts.
Have fun and be safe.
Don
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doz
Jun 12, 2008, 11:48 PM
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Two things that are real important first CHILL OUT, and second don’t listen to anyone at your climbing gym( I am going to have to second the question “is there any real climbers at your gym”). Don’t let your self get worked up about trad climbing. Panic IS your worst enemy, if you freak your placements are going to falter and if you fall you could blow a piece and take a much longer whip than you should have. Keep your head. Someone said climb easy routs, get experience-that is a very good call. It does sound like you are educating yourself well, that also is a good.
Also, I have fallen on WAY more trad gear than bolts and I am still alive to tell the story. Don’t think for a moment that a well placed cam/nut/etc. is anything but BOMBER.
One more thing that is important. If you have been a sport climber/gym climber you must learn how to effectively use long slings (trad slings-2,3 even 4 footers) especially on long routs(unless you are in the desert on some long splitter crack). The first time you are on some wondering rout and you don’t effectively use your slings and it feel like you have a buss attached to your ass and you still have 50’ to the belay your are going to cuss……… a lot.
Doz
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tready
Jun 13, 2008, 2:16 AM
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Maybe since you've been climbing for five years this won't be an issue for you, but make sure you have comfy (relative) shoes. I've just recently gotten into trad and did my first multipitch climb last weekend. Most of what I do has been short sport climbs and bouldering, so I have very agressive, tight shoes. Not what you want if you can't take them off every 20-30 minutes. My feet looked like hamburger by the time we finished our climb.
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zeke_sf
Jun 13, 2008, 2:25 AM
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doz wrote: Two things that are real important first CHILL OUT, and second don’t listen to anyone at your climbing gym...
Doz is right, only listen to strangers on the internet.
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c4c
Jun 13, 2008, 2:27 AM
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youz are gonna die
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mojomonkey
Jun 13, 2008, 2:59 AM
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c4c wrote: youz are gonna die
Well, trad is serious
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spikeddem
Jun 13, 2008, 7:58 AM
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donald949 wrote: Also, just don't jump right on the hardest/longest line you can do. Start easy and short, build up to harder and longer. Figure out how long it takes to place pro and build an anchor on a couple of pitches.
This is no joke. Especially if you're not used to crack climbing; don't think that a 5.8 crack climb will be easy just because a 5.10 face climb is easy for you. (Maybe you're a regular crack climber, I don't know, just offering this advice.)
I'm speaking from experience when I say it is a good idea to dial the grades wayyyyyy down until you can get the right (size) piece in two tries or less every single time. Better yet, first try 80% of the time or better. This is one area I have to work on for myself, being a new trad leader, too.
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healyje
Jun 13, 2008, 8:49 AM
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Zan, it's great you and your partner are learning together, but I'd suggest you each try to get in some time seconding experienced trad leaders if at all possible - seconding is really the best way to learn to lead. Along with that the two of you can also do plenty of learning on your own as well. You also might try learning some aid as that will also help you learn to place and clean pro - and placing it so it's reasonable to clean is part of the craft you want to develop.
Good luck and if you end up swinging through Oregon pm me and I'd be happy to take you guys out for a day of multipitch.
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zan
Jun 13, 2008, 12:23 PM
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In reply to: Oddly enough I actually managed to figure this one out of my own :) (I got one thing at least!). I added a comfy pair of Mythos to my bouldering shoes and I've already broken 'em in outdoors. No way was I going to climb for more than twenty minutes in my aggressive bouldering shoes. ouch ouch ouch. |
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zan
Jun 13, 2008, 12:26 PM
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Ah Oregon! That's where I did most of my climbing (The Circuit and PRG). I moved away due to job-related stuff but oh how I miss it. In all my years there I never made it out to Smith Rock (crazy I know). Anyway, next time I'm back in stumptown I'll definitely give you a buzz, thanks for the offer!
As far as seconding a more experienced leader, I wish I could but I don't know any. For some reason no one at my gym here climbs trad or has any interest in learning. Still, you're right. Maybe I will use my rebate check to pay the guide who taught my trad class to do a day of multipitch with me. Hmmm
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zan
Jun 13, 2008, 12:27 PM
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I know, I know, I'm a nerd.
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gothcopter
Jun 13, 2008, 1:53 PM
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zan wrote: I just want some advice from folks on how to a) live
Fully?
zan wrote: b) avoid stupid newbie mistakes
) First piece should be "directional". Many people I know make it a rule to always place a cam as the first piece.
) Make sure you sling protection long enough to avoid rope drag (bad) and gear moving out of place (worse). Be especially careful about placements under overhangs (a common situation at the Gunks).
) Be careful not to knock loose rock off belay ledges. The people below you will appreciate it!
) Be sure to plan your descent as well as you plan your ascent.
) Gunks in July? Bring bug spray.
zan wrote: c) train for the trip in terms of skill/technique/strength etc
) Downclimbing is a valuable skill.
) Work out a series of rope tug signals with your partner. You will eventually encounter a situation where you are unable to see/hear each other.
) Wilderness first aid and survival training?
zan wrote: d) be an awesome second (the idea is he'll lead all the climbs because I'm not confident enough -- even though he keeps saying, "Nah, you'll lead some")
) Remove protection from the rock first, then from the rope. That way you can't drop it.
) If you're at a comfortable stance, re-triple an extended "trad draw" when you clean it. Makes stuff neater, and it's one less thing to be done at the belay.
) If your leader has placed a long string of stoppers, unclip your nut tool from your harness and leave it hanging on the rope. You can slide the nut tool up the rope and use it to free each nut, and then just drop the nut tool once the nut is free.
) When cleaning stoppers with the nut tool, don't push on them. Whack them. Swift, sharp shocks will do more good. Be sure to slide the tip of the nut tool alongside the cable of the stopper, to avoid stabbing the cable and damaging it.
) When cleaning gear, try to place like items on the same gear loop (stoppers on one, cams on another). That way when you hand gear over at the belay it will already be somewhat organized.
) Do yourself a favor -- lead some! There are plenty of easy leads at the Gunks. You owe it to yourself to get some experience. Besides, the more you place gear, the better your understanding of how to clean it.
zan wrote: Oh, and, my folks offered to buy me a new rope for my birthday ... any particular kind I should get for trad?
Seems like most people are still using 60-70m ropes in the 9.8-10.5mm range. Since the folks are buying, you might as well go for dry treatment and bi-pattern if you can get it!
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troutboy
Jun 13, 2008, 2:04 PM
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zan wrote: I know, I know, I'm a nerd.
Noob maybe, don't know about nerd  . But everyone was a noob once. Actually, you seem like someone who had enough sense to know something might be amiss and your partner is over confident and brushing off any sense of concern.
Sounds to me as if you are correct. Your partner has led some (you say), yet he is still taking courses in leading and anchor construction, so we know he is not a very experienced leader. He will essentially be learning on the fly with you, totally inexperienced, as a second. And although it seems you have a good head and good common sense, it may not be enough to prevent an epic.
Keep these things in mind:
1) You can learn together in Yosemite in August, but it will likely be hot. You will need to adjust your climbing grade down a few notches. (But you don't know what your trad ability is yet. Perhaps he does, perhaps not.) So, you will need to find shorter, easier climbs in shade which will limit your choices. Still prolly enough to do. There are numerous sources of info for easy Yosemite climbs.
2) I would not try anything more than 2-3 pitches at the most at first. See how it goes. Get your systems and methods down first.
3) Climbing at the Gunks is nothing like climbing at Yosemite. At the Gunks, if anything goes wrong you either bail from a nearby tree or yell for help and any one of a zillion other climbers will be there to lend a hand ;-). Not in Yosemite. Something goes wrong and you could be in for a nice epic.
4) Those of us who have been around for awhile have seen this scenario before. New climber gets sucked in by friend/boyfriend who, laden with testosterone, boldly leads his less experienced friend (male or female) into a situation they should not be in (see Gunks High E thread of last week for example). Now, this may not be your situation. Perhaps your friend is conservative and level-headed and has enough sense to stay within his abilities. But the fact he suggested going to Yosemite with as little experience as you both have suggests otherwise.
So, do some research, practice at the Gunks several times first, climb in the gym when you can for strength and if you feel like you still want to go, go. Be conservative on what y'all attempt and seek sound advice on good climbs for you from reliable sources.
Some other things:
There are very few climbs suitable for beginning trad leaders in Tuolumne Meadows. It's a beautiful place lacking the summer valley crowds, but the climbs are generally harder and more run out. There are some easy climbs with good gear, but they are few and sometimes a bit crowded because of how few easy climbs there are in Tuolumne. There is a good guidebook available from Supertopo (www.supertopo.com) that can direct you to the easier climbs.
You might consider reading the John Long books on climbing anchors. Paperback, fairly cheap, and the definitive source on anchor building.
Finally, you seem nice, well spoken, and eager to learn, so I would be willing to walk you through some stuff at the Gunks. My work and travel schedule is a bitch the next 2 months so can't guarantee, but send me a PM and we'll see if we can find a mutual time. I will be up there this Sunday and Monday.
Best of luck
TS
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Alpinisto
Jun 13, 2008, 3:28 PM
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troutboy wrote: You might consider reading the John Long books on climbing anchors. Paperback, fairly cheap, and the definitive source on anchor building.
I just finished this book last week, and if you're getting into trad, I'd say it's a must read.
I did my first multi-pitch at the Gunks last weekend (seconding Casa Emilio 5.3) behind my very experienced trad climbing partner. I've been climbing about a year; he about 25. As someone else posted above, seconding behind a leader who knows what they're doing can be VERY educational.
However, as you're cleaning gear, you need to be thinking, "why did s/he use THIS piece HERE?...could s/he have used a stopper instead of a cam (or vice versa)...why did s/he extend the sling on this piece?...how would I have protected this section of pitch differently?"...etc.
This kind of critical thinking can be a bit difficult if you're climbing at or near your limit, so dialing the grades back substantially can aid in your learning. (I climb 5.8-5.9 on toprope, but my partner took me up a 5.3 for my first seconding/first multipitch.)
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