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sungam
Jun 29, 2008, 8:06 AM
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[quote "8flood8"]i'm the GeeDUBYA of this darndamndarn-here website, ya dig!?[/quote]
I don't know what's sadder. The fact that you are a complete fucking moron with the IQ of a skullfucked wildabeast, or that you claim to be the most ridiculous, sorry ass excuse for a world leader that ever dubbed himself fucktard (because after all, actions speak louder than words).
Go play with the barbie dolls, just don't stain the carpet.
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sungam
Jun 29, 2008, 9:53 AM
Post #27 of 53
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WVUCLMBR wrote: I think I should warn all of you that my wife checks her rc.com account about once a month, and that she searches for Cinch threads. Then she hunts down anyone who says bad things about her Cinch and ninja's them. It's not pretty.
Man, you IS lucky!!!!
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tisakson
Jun 29, 2008, 10:01 PM
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Wow, just adding to the "Cinch" discussion, didn't know people would freak out about repeating what I had simply heard. I thought that adding "through the grapevine" would make it clear that it might not be entirely accurate, but I guess I will not contribute to discussions in these threads any further since anything that is said could be a fabrication of the "truth".
But again, I "heard" that someone fell while the belayer was using a Cinch....I don't know if it was the belay device or the belayer...who knows...I don't.
(This post was edited by tisakson on Jun 29, 2008, 10:03 PM)
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maldaly
Jun 29, 2008, 10:56 PM
Post #29 of 53
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Somebody "fell" while being belayed with a Cinch?
God help me.
Mal
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reno
Jun 29, 2008, 11:05 PM
Post #30 of 53
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tisakson wrote: But again, I "heard" that someone fell while the belayer was using a Cinch....I don't know if it was the belay device or the belayer...who knows...I don't.
So, after you first place the blame on the device, you later admit that you don't know all (any?) of the details of the event?
Your first post, in case you forgot:
In reply to: I heard through the climbing grapevine that a gal fell about 40 feet at a local crag here while leading on a Trango Cinch. She fell at the top and the cinch failed to stop her and she fell to the ground, open-wound fracture on her leg, but was concious and didn't break her neck. Anyway, don't know what happened but heard it was the Cinch.
Perhaps an apology to the makers of the Cinch for wrongful accusations is in order?
(This post was edited by reno on Jun 29, 2008, 11:06 PM)
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phillygoat
Jun 29, 2008, 11:56 PM
Post #31 of 53
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maldaly wrote: Somebody "fell" while being belayed with a Cinch?
Just yesterday I fell four times on the same route while being belayed with a Cinch! You'd think I'd have learned my lesson...
BTW, Mal- Recently picked this gadget up and the GriGri hasn't been out since. Feeds and lowers like a dream! Nice work.
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sungam
Jun 30, 2008, 8:38 AM
Post #32 of 53
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maldaly wrote: Somebody "fell" while being belayed with a Cinch? God help me. Mal 
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WVUCLMBR
Jun 30, 2008, 12:15 PM
Post #33 of 53
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I fall all the time while being belayed by a Cinch. The thing really hasn't helped my climbing ability one bit.
Now somebody getting dropped while lowered I can believe. It takes a wee bit of practice to get used to. That being said my ninja Cinch master old lady has it down thanks to practice and some youtube videos with some old guy. She uses the biner in the leg loop tricky and her lowering is smoother that I can duplicate with any device.
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robbovius
Jun 30, 2008, 12:55 PM
Post #34 of 53
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why, just this past weekend I was using my cinch for an extended top rope self belay, on some fricken 8.2 twinsy shoestring, and it worked mint, better than my grigri could have ever hoped to. 'twas perfection in metal.
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billcoe_
Jun 30, 2008, 3:27 PM
Post #35 of 53
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robbovius wrote: why, just this past weekend I was using my cinch for an extended top rope self belay, on some fricken 8.2 twinsy shoestring, and it worked mint, better than my grigri could have ever hoped to. 'twas perfection in metal.
Not so obvious Rob, you are using it well outside of the design parameters and its not recommended for either Self belay and those sized ropes.
You're all over having backup knots I hope?
http://www.trango.com/pdfs/CinchFAQ.pdf
Take care
Bill
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kuperkutie
Jun 30, 2008, 3:32 PM
Post #36 of 53
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IDK about ninja, but I'm super limber.
I LOVE my cinch! I've been using it for two years now, and remember it's not an AUTO locking device its and AUTO ASSISTING. So, if someone was dropped it was totally the belayer's fault. Malcom's video was very helpful to show me that I was using the device correctly and gave me more helpful tips. And yes, I use a backup biner on my leg loop for lowering. It not makes me feel more secure, but I feel it's makes it even safer. I love this device and I've used it on all types of ropes and haven't had any problems. 
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WVUCLMBR
Jun 30, 2008, 3:44 PM
Post #37 of 53
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STFU n00b! 
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shockabuku
Jun 30, 2008, 3:49 PM
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Damn. You're gonna be wishin' you still had a couch so you have some where to sleep after she reads that.
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kuperkutie
Jun 30, 2008, 4:56 PM
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Nah, we have a spare bedroom! J/K! But I'm proud to be a nOOb! You have to start somewhere! And I am always trying to learn more and more. So far so good! I enjoy climbing a lot!
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robbovius
Jun 30, 2008, 5:32 PM
Post #40 of 53
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billcoe_ wrote: robbovius wrote: why, just this past weekend I was using my cinch for an extended top rope self belay, on some fricken 8.2 twinsy shoestring, and it worked mint, better than my grigri could have ever hoped to. 'twas perfection in metal. Not so obvious Rob, you are using it well outside of the design parameters and its not recommended for either Self belay and those sized ropes.
yeah, I know. it worked great, almost like it was designed for it, even though it wasn't. the grigri wasn't recommended for self-belay either, originally, (including the infamous "death mod") but years of user experience have made those usages accepted. perhaps the cinch will have a similar life.
In reply to: You're all over having backup knots I hope?
no, not especially. they hinder actual climbing. my cinch has caught me on TR falls before, on other ropes as thin as 9.4. I tested its grip on the 8.2 before I started up the climb (5.5 slab) it gripped automatically and tightly without a problem.
I know some people think I don't, but really, I do, though maybe not to the levels of conservatism others might.
everyone differs in their personal level of risk aversion.
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WVUCLMBR
Jun 30, 2008, 5:39 PM
Post #41 of 53
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So as we have all noticed....you say Trango or Cinch and Mal appears like a genie.....you say something that is a no-no and he keeps his mouth shut to keep your lawyers out of his pocket when you crater.
That being said I have used my Cinch to solo tr and have only ever had one problem due to body position when I fell.
We are all gonna die someday, I prefer to die in a firework accident, not in a crater wondering why my system failed.
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billcoe_
Jun 30, 2008, 7:40 PM
Post #42 of 53
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WVUCLMBR wrote: So as we have all noticed....you say Trango or Cinch and Mal appears like a genie.....you say something that is a no-no and he keeps his mouth shut to keep your lawyers out of his pocket when you crater..
Not true, Malcolm has posted this warning so many times that he's probably tired of saying it OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
The scissor mechanism, which make the unit light, could easily become impared via your body and the zip you would take would be killer.
Now that being said, for convienance only - I use mine all the time as an ascender and a toprope belay. I am all over the use of backup knots, and keep the many warnings Malcolm has issued in mind at all times.
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maldaly
Jun 30, 2008, 9:14 PM
Post #43 of 53
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Thx billcoe. I couldn't have said it better myself.
Mal
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billcoe_
Jun 30, 2008, 10:12 PM
Post #44 of 53
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maldaly wrote: Thx billcoe. I couldn't have said it better myself. Mal
He he, I think you have, plenty of times and plenty of ways already. It's appreciated too.
I was just trying to pick up the slack to give you a break this time:-)
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waltersiebert
Dec 23, 2008, 2:57 PM
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Here:
http://forum.climbing.de/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13222&start=60
is again an accident reproted:
Somebody fell after finishing a route in a climbing hall about 15 m before he was cought. The pattern seems to be always the same: The climber rests in the rope, releases weight and then lets go. In such a case there is a position where the rope runs straight through the device, no friction. Of course, as always, its the the users failure, but at least its good to know that this failure occurs when used according to the instructions.
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nthusiastj
Dec 23, 2008, 3:29 PM
Post #46 of 53
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WVUCLMBR wrote: So as we have all noticed....you say Trango or Cinch and Mal appears like a genie.....you say something that is a no-no and he keeps his mouth shut to keep your lawyers out of his pocket when you crater. That being said I have used my Cinch to solo tr and have only ever had one problem due to body position when I fell. We are all gonna die someday, I prefer to die in a firework accident, not in a crater wondering why my system failed.
Actually the fact that Malcom posts here at all is a testament to how much he cares. You don't see any reps from other companies like BD, Petzl, or others taking the time to give advice and check how people are liking their products. Everyone else prints off the instruction manual and leaves it up to you.
If there are times he's quiet, he does have a business obligation to consider. There are times he can lend advice and help, and times when things may get too close to a legal line. ANY rational person who owned a comany would do the same. Especially on here.
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drfelatio
Dec 23, 2008, 3:53 PM
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waltersiebert wrote: Here: http://forum.climbing.de/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13222&start=60 is again an accident reproted: Somebody fell after finishing a route in a climbing hall about 15 m before he was cought. The pattern seems to be always the same: The climber rests in the rope, releases weight and then lets go. In such a case there is a position where the rope runs straight through the device, no friction. Of course, as always, its the the users failure, but at least its good to know that this failure occurs when used according to the instructions.
That sounds to me like the belayer had pulled the lever to lower before the climber had fully weighted the rope and then lost control. That is not a failure of the device.
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rmsusa
Dec 23, 2008, 9:04 PM
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In reply to: ...You don't see any reps from other companies like BD, Petzl, or others taking the time to give advice and check how people are liking their products...
That's not true at all. I can think of a bunch of posts from people involved with other companies.
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adatesman
Dec 23, 2008, 9:41 PM
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asellers98
Dec 25, 2008, 11:24 AM
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I love my Trango Cinch due to its practical application for working routes. It is really a great product, thanks Mal!
I personally have seen two people dropped in gyms using a grigri, so this problem is not exclusive with the Cinch. My friend Cliff broke bones in both legs being dropped by a new climber lowering him with a Grigri at Summit Gym this year. If you do not know your gear, and do not practice with it in a safe environment before it counts, you could easily hurt someone.
The scariest experience with mine was learning how to lead climb with it. When there was tension on the rope midclimb, I really struggled to learn how to free it, even after watching the instructional video and reading the manual over and over. Getting real world practice is really the only way to learn. The climber got scared not being able to move (the cinch was locked down tight), which put more tension on the rope, and I had to use the lever to free it.
The cinch works best when you keep just enough slack to keep it from being taunt and engaged. Newer belayers start off keeping such a tight belay that you feel the pull a lot. The problem thus is not really a device issue as much as it is learning how to properly belay a climber. The fall distance between the two methods is less than a foot or two in most cases. So when you are belaying with the cinch, keep a small drop bend in the rope leading to the climber, and you will alleviate those scary instant midclimb grabs (such as on lead and moving above the bolt they just clipped - I like to remove the slack once they give the command clipped.). Put yourself in the leader's shoes, would you rather be trapped between transitions because it grabbed tight accidently by bad belay technique, or have a little more rope out and climbing without interference?
The Cinch is invaluable when WORKING a route. It holds the climber perfectly without slippage. Where in the gym, using a GRIGRI, I really struggle keeping it as tight. When you are working a route the few inches give really makes climber frustrated trying to work a section over and over. For this task, this device really makes it an extremely valuable item.
As a device to hand a new belayer so you feel safer - NOT A CHANCE unless you give them a course on how to use the device, practice catching and lowering, and to use it like you are using an ATC with the hand in the break position constantly. If you practice these, no matter how far back you open the lever, if you have the device in the break position, it is still stopped. But I wouldn't hand an untrained GRIGRI belayer a grigri either.
I say use this device as if it is an ATC, and the locking feature will be an asset you want to save arm strength.
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