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Arrogant_Bastard
Aug 1, 2008, 11:35 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: So why people (climbers….etc) keep hurting themselves while rappelling ? Please fill up the list 1- Stuck on a wall with Majid. 2- Human error
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Arrogant_Bastard
Aug 1, 2008, 11:36 PM
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Arrogant_Bastard wrote: majid_sabet wrote: So why people (climbers….etc) keep hurting themselves while rappelling ? Please fill up the list 1- Stuck on a wall with Majid. 2- Human error 3- Scrambling to get the PTFTW
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hafilax
Aug 1, 2008, 11:43 PM
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What is your point Majid? Dingus and rgold made excellent posts on the subject. What are you trying to accomplish with this incomprehensible list?
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majid_sabet
Aug 2, 2008, 12:01 AM
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hafilax wrote: What is your point Majid? Dingus and rgold made excellent posts on the subject. What are you trying to accomplish with this incomprehensible list? Except neither of them (Mr D and R) ever start a post that target safety unless someone else initiates one and even due such accidents never happens to EXPERT CLIMBERS as we know it, I think ,there is a small chance that may be some climbers get something out of these non-sense list.
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hafilax
Aug 2, 2008, 12:12 AM
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Why don't you just say so instead of beating around the bush? It obscures your point.
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phillygoat
Aug 2, 2008, 12:47 AM
Post #31 of 61
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majid_sabet wrote: hafilax wrote: What is your point Majid? Dingus and rgold made excellent posts on the subject. What are you trying to accomplish with this incomprehensible list? Except neither of them (Mr D and R) ever start a post that target safety unless someone else initiates one and even due such accidents never happens to EXPERT CLIMBERS as we know it, I think ,there is a small chance that may be some climbers get something out of these non-sense list. Heehee, he called Dingus an expert!
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stymingersfink
Aug 2, 2008, 1:07 AM
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phillygoat wrote: majid_sabet wrote: hafilax wrote: What is your point Majid? Dingus and rgold made excellent posts on the subject. What are you trying to accomplish with this incomprehensible list? Except neither of them (Mr D and R) ever start a post that target safety unless someone else initiates one and even due such accidents never happens to EXPERT CLIMBERS as we know it, I think ,there is a small chance that may be some climbers get something out of these non-sense list. Heehee, he called Dingus an expert! funny thing is, if one were to dig deep enough, I wouldn't be surprised if they were to discover that rappelling accidents are the number one killer of expert climbers who die while climbing. Todd?
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sween345
Aug 2, 2008, 1:10 AM
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such accidents never happens to EXPERT CLIMBERS as we know it I would think Todd Skinner and Paul Duval could be considered expert climbers.
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rgold
Aug 2, 2008, 6:15 AM
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Sorry Magid, I just don't share your fascination with accidents. Still, you might enjoy reading this post on gunks.com. Never say never m'boy. Dingus, I'm still a little uneasy rappelling if I'm several pitches or more off the ground, but the rappels that worry me the most are the shorter ones at a familiar crag that get you to the ground in one rap. We do a ton of these in the Gunks nowadays; these rappels are utterly routine, and I find I'm totally blase about it, which I also know is not good. As for the backups, either mechanical or prussic-type, I'm not against them but think they are a sort of Maginot line, in the sense that the protect against things that don't happen. Other than perhaps rank beginners, climbers who aren't exposed to objective dangers don't lose control of ordinary rappels. I have no statistics to offer, but my sense from reading the literature is that the majority of rappelling accidents come from going off the end of the rope, and backups will not protect against this eventuality. Given the increasing number of experienced climbers who have rapped off the end of their ropes, I'm begining to come around to the idea that knots at the end are a good idea unless you are in known hang-up terrain such as one finds at Red Rock.
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sungam
Aug 2, 2008, 10:58 AM
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OOOOOhhh!ooooooooooooooooh! Pick me teachah! I'm evah so smart! How about people fucking up because they read some bullshit written from MS's armchair about how to rig a retrievable absiel with a damaged line, believe the BS the was spouted, and then one biner slips through the other so they deck?
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Aunor
Aug 2, 2008, 12:37 PM
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Rgold is on route... majid_sabet is way off route... 1) System failure (i.e. Good rope breaks for no good reason) a) Rope b) Harness c) Anchor etc... all very unlikely... but hard to mitigate. 2) Extenal factor (i.e. lightening strike) a) rock falls (not a rock the climbing could have known about) b) Another persons actions (not part of the group) c) Weather etc... all very unlikely... however easier to mitigate. 3) Human error on the part of the climber or group a) application and installation of the system b) understadning of the system c) focus on the task d) communication (on the part of the climber or group) e) personal health (i.e. heat attack) f) poor gear or improper gear etc... all possible and responsible for mitigation. 1? Forget it. 2? Maybe... still 3? Is the ONLY one worth going into any kind of "list" and it should be categories of failures... even shorter then I list... "physical" "mental" "social" "preparedness" something like that.
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chossmonkey
Aug 2, 2008, 1:49 PM
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Arrogant_Bastard wrote: Arrogant_Bastard wrote: majid_sabet wrote: So why people (climbers….etc) keep hurting themselves while rappelling ? Please fill up the list 1- Stuck on a wall with Majid. 2- Human error 3- Scrambling to get the PTFTW That is indeed dangerous.
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notapplicable
Aug 2, 2008, 2:57 PM
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rgold wrote: Given the increasing number of experienced climbers who have rapped off the end of their ropes, I'm begining to come around to the idea that knots at the end are a good idea unless you are in known hang-up terrain such as one finds at Red Rock. This subject always leaves my ego showing a little. When I'm climbing with all accept one partner or if rigging a line that multiple parties will use, I find myself inclined to knot the end of the rope most of the time. I dont even think about it, I just do it but when I'm alone or when I'm with my regular partner, I only knot the line under unusual circumstances, really heavy pack, totally dark out, raining hard, ect... Sure its arrogance but I also dont want to be the one who rigged a line that someone else rapped off of. I feel like my partner and I know each other well enough to judge for one another, when a back up is needed. We have an understanding on the matter, one based on a knowledge of skill and what constitutes an acceptable level of risk. Perhaps an arrogant and foolish understanding but an understanding none the less.
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notapplicable
Aug 2, 2008, 3:04 PM
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chossmonkey wrote: Arrogant_Bastard wrote: Arrogant_Bastard wrote: majid_sabet wrote: So why people (climbers….etc) keep hurting themselves while rappelling ? Please fill up the list 1- Stuck on a wall with Majid. 2- Human error 3- Scrambling to get the PTFTW That is indeed dangerous. Many an ego bruised and butt's hurt, in this most treacherous of pursuits.
(This post was edited by notapplicable on Aug 3, 2008, 3:10 AM)
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timh
Aug 2, 2008, 3:22 PM
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In reply to: 3) Human error on the part of the climber or group a) application and installation of the system b) understadning of the system c) focus on the task d) communication (on the part of the climber or group) e) personal health (i.e. heat attack) f) poor gear or improper gear etc... all possible and responsible for mitigation. Examples of #3c are often prefaced by "Yaw'll watch this!" and/or "Here, hold my beer."
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majid_sabet
Aug 2, 2008, 4:06 PM
Post #41 of 61
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stymingersfink wrote: phillygoat wrote: majid_sabet wrote: hafilax wrote: What is your point Majid? Dingus and rgold made excellent posts on the subject. What are you trying to accomplish with this incomprehensible list? Except neither of them (Mr D and R) ever start a post that target safety unless someone else initiates one and even due such accidents never happens to EXPERT CLIMBERS as we know it, I think ,there is a small chance that may be some climbers get something out of these non-sense list. Heehee, he called Dingus an expert! funny thing is, if one were to dig deep enough, I wouldn't be surprised if they were to discover that rappelling accidents are the number one killer of expert climbers who die while climbing. Todd? IMO, there was another factor in Todd's accident which most climbers do not know .
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stymingersfink
Aug 2, 2008, 4:17 PM
Post #42 of 61
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majid_sabet wrote: stymingersfink wrote: phillygoat wrote: majid_sabet wrote: hafilax wrote: What is your point Majid? Dingus and rgold made excellent posts on the subject. What are you trying to accomplish with this incomprehensible list? Except neither of them (Mr D and R) ever start a post that target safety unless someone else initiates one and even due such accidents never happens to EXPERT CLIMBERS as we know it, I think ,there is a small chance that may be some climbers get something out of these non-sense list. Heehee, he called Dingus an expert! funny thing is, if one were to dig deep enough, I wouldn't be surprised if they were to discover that rappelling accidents are the number one killer of expert climbers who die while climbing. Todd? IMO, there was another factor in Todd's accident which most climbers do not know . your opinion doesn't interest me.
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majid_sabet
Aug 2, 2008, 4:49 PM
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rgold wrote: Sorry Magid, I just don't share your fascination with accidents. Still, you might enjoy reading this post on gunks.com. Never say never m'boy. Dingus, I'm still a little uneasy rappelling if I'm several pitches or more off the ground, but the rappels that worry me the most are the shorter ones at a familiar crag that get you to the ground in one rap. We do a ton of these in the Gunks nowadays; these rappels are utterly routine, and I find I'm totally blase about it, which I also know is not good. As for the backups, either mechanical or prussic-type, I'm not against them but think they are a sort of Maginot line, in the sense that the protect against things that don't happen. Other than perhaps rank beginners, climbers who aren't exposed to objective dangers don't lose control of ordinary rappels. I have no statistics to offer, but my sense from reading the literature is that the majority of rappelling accidents come from going off the end of the rope, and backups will not protect against this eventuality. Given the increasing number of experienced climbers who have rapped off the end of their ropes, I'm begining to come around to the idea that knots at the end are a good idea unless you are in known hang-up terrain such as one finds at Red Rock. Rich I need to take you climbing in some of the third world countries to see how climbers risk their lives every day on pitons by far worse than what you showed in that link and I was very close to loose a partner on similar pitons 12 years ago. Do not take me wrong, I do have a lot of respect for you and Dingus and I always enjoy reading your and climbing related analysis.
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Aunor
Aug 2, 2008, 6:12 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: IMO, there was another factor in Todd [Skinner]'s accident which most climbers do not know . Now... don't tell me yet... but give a clue.. what number would you give it on your list? 70ish or 700,000ish?
(This post was edited by Aunor on Aug 2, 2008, 6:12 PM)
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armsrforclimbing
Aug 2, 2008, 6:12 PM
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1. Gravity and aerodynamics
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sungam
Aug 2, 2008, 6:17 PM
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Aunor wrote: majid_sabet wrote: IMO, there was another factor in Todd [Skinner]'s accident which most climbers do not know . Now... don't tell me yet... but give a clue.. what number would you give it on your list? 70ish or 700,000ish? You cannot talk about "it" because clearly majid is talking about something which we don't know, but he does- accept it man, he just knows more then us. he's special like that.
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irregularpanda
Aug 2, 2008, 6:34 PM
Post #47 of 61
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majid_sabet wrote: rgold wrote: 1. Objective dangers, e.g. rockfall and lightning. These account for just a tiny fraction of incidents as far as I can tell. 2. Anchor failure. Some of these might have been predictable and so belong in (3). Also a tiny fraction. 3. Human error. This accounts for almost all of the incidents. The nature of the error isn't the point. The real problem has two parts: (a) Any kind of mistake rappelling is likely to have catastrophic consequences. In other areas, climbers can get away with all kinds of errors over and over again. (b) Rappelling poses no challenges at all. It is simple and routine, and we do an enormous amount of it. The result is that we aren't the least afraid, and so can easily become overly casual about the process. This is deadly in view of (a). Is this why climbers turn the safety switch off and go to autopilot mode thinking,"it is only rappelling and so simple. Any idiot off the street can do this, here watch me" Did you think asking questions that you already know the answer to makes you sound smarter?
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sungam
Aug 2, 2008, 10:11 PM
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No, it's the way he forgets to use questions marks that makes him sound "smarter".
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Aunor
Aug 2, 2008, 10:29 PM
Post #49 of 61
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rgold wrote: ....As for the backups, either mechanical or prussic-type, I'm not against them but think they are a sort of Maginot line, in the sense that the protect against things that don't happen. Other than perhaps rank beginners, climbers who aren't exposed to objective dangers don't lose control of ordinary rappels. I have no statistics to offer, but my sense from reading the literature is that the majority of rappelling accidents come from going off the end of the rope, and backups will not protect against this eventuality. And
dingus wrote: ....Yet (ironically nor not) I rarely back up rappel rigs with auto-grip style knots, viewing them as a liability in most situations (not all however). Perhaps not loing my fear of rappelling has kept me from getting hurt? The only rappel injury I ever received was a badly burned palm after briefly losing control on a goldline rap using a diaper harness and a twice-wrapped biner as a rap device. (Dingus once burned learned a valuable lesson!) I enjoy having a rap backup in place for high stress raps - high on a wall descending fixed lines, for example. Given the wall climbing enviro I'd likely use a jumar attached to a Yates-style adjustable daisy as the backup, but have used knots as well. I prefer above the device backup and generally detest the knots-on-the-side jury rigs. DMT Backups protect against so much more then error on the part of a climber save going off the end of the rope... and a knots-on-the-side jury rig might have saved Todd Skinner.
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meesier42
Aug 3, 2008, 12:35 AM
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limeydave wrote: This list is 99.9% unnecessary. Two Words. Human Error. two words stupidity and arrogance how hard is it really to 1) tie a knot in the end of the rope and 2) use a prusik
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