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jaablink
Aug 8, 2008, 2:47 PM
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New bolts on an easily trad protect able wall below a crack. This is already a touchy area for access and this climb in particular is easily protectable using passive means. Therefore, I am going to clip them before they draw further attention. A difficult to protect face climb would be more appropriate to place bolt protection, a crack climb is inappropriate for bolting especially in an area that is mostly trad climbed. Also, before bolting, it is standard etiquette to gain permission from landowners or are developers as bolts are essentially defacement. This is an friendly FYI for someone who is obviously a novice.
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troutboy
Aug 8, 2008, 3:29 PM
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jaablink wrote: Therefore, I am going to clip them before they draw further attention.
I think you mean chopped.
jaablink wrote: This is an friendly FYI for someone who is obviously a novice.
Clipped vs chopped. Novice ? Pot----->Kettle.
Or maybe you're just so pissed you had a brain freeze. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to you on this.
TS
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jaablink
Aug 8, 2008, 3:47 PM
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Never has it been my strong suit. (writing) -but yes, Infuriated , you get the gist.
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fresh
Aug 8, 2008, 3:52 PM
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jaablink wrote: I am going to clip them before they draw further attention.
out of curiosity, what area?
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jaablink
Aug 8, 2008, 4:14 PM
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They were placed on a line I often solo in NEPA
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debaser655321
Aug 8, 2008, 4:15 PM
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Before you chop bolts talk to the person that put up the bolts. Is this their route, did they have the FA? If someone retro bolted the route, ask if they spoke to the FA climber or if they would like their hangers back. Don't do anything if those are not your bolts on your route.
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Valarc
Aug 8, 2008, 4:20 PM
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Chopping without gathering more information is just as much of a douchebag move as bolting without gathering more information.
Don't start a bolt war just because you are pissed off - talk to the locals, find out who had the FA, ask if they approved the bolts. Hell, even talk to the land managers and see if they approved any bolting on the property.
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jaablink
Aug 8, 2008, 4:28 PM
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I have the FA. I spent years cleaning this wall , I know every hold , hole, bump.....on it.I now solo it often, as well as every rout on the entire wall for training instead of going to a gym.
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the_climber
Aug 8, 2008, 4:34 PM
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Had the same thing happen last year on a crag we developed.
If like us you ar ethe FA/Developer of the crag, Time to pull the crowbar out.
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jaablink
Aug 8, 2008, 4:35 PM
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they were not approved... i did check with the grounds keeper who's son i saved from drowning 2 years ago....i am a local....the local gear shop where the owner and i grew up together and all the other locals are looking and listening to find the bolter....
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tedman
Aug 8, 2008, 4:50 PM
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So I feel like this is a troll, but I'll bite. Who gives a flying fuck? i really dont understand why everyone seems to get their knickers in a twist when people bolt things. If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that. Other people who might not be as experienced or have the $ for a rack right now will appreciate them I'm sure. And please, dont spew the line about bolts being unsightly, I don't believe it for a second. Do you get all puffed up when you see some stuck gear? 'OMG ITS UGLY< I MUST REMOVE IT FOR THE FENG SHWAY OF THE ROUTEZ!'. No, of course you dont, you remove it because you are a greedy bastard who wants it for himself (and who wouldnt?). Unless I'm missing something (and I could be, because I'm not a grizzled 40 year climbing veteran), the only reason people get all pissed off is because the elite and exclusive trad club that had all rights to unbolted lines now has to _share_. holy flying dogshit! people not as dedicated as me arn't allowed on my lines! get off gumby! You must have a swinging dick this long to get on my trad route!
Get over yourself! does it really detract from your massive ego that sport climbers can now enjoy the same routes? are you that fucking selfish?
And yes, I do climb trad. Not as hard as my sport grade but I've only been at it for the summer. So yeah, I do both.
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crimpandgo
Aug 8, 2008, 4:53 PM
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tedman wrote: So I feel like this is a troll, but I'll bite. Who gives a flying fuck? i really dont understand why everyone seems to get their knickers in a twist when people bolt things. If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that. Other people who might not be as experienced or have the $ for a rack right now will appreciate them I'm sure. And please, dont spew the line about bolts being unsightly, I don't believe it for a second. Do you get all puffed up when you see some stuck gear? 'OMG ITS UGLY< I MUST REMOVE IT FOR THE FENG SHWAY OF THE ROUTEZ!'. No, of course you dont, you remove it because you are a greedy bastard who wants it for himself (and who wouldnt?). Unless I'm missing something (and I could be, because I'm not a grizzled 40 year climbing veteran), the only reason people get all pissed off is because the elite and exclusive trad club that had all rights to unbolted lines now has to _share_. holy flying dogshit! people not as dedicated as me arn't allowed on my lines! get off gumby! You must have a swinging dick this long to get on my trad route! Get over yourself! does it really detract from your massive ego that sport climbers can now enjoy the same routes? are you that fucking selfish? And yes, I do climb trad. Not as hard as my sport grade but I've only been at it for the summer. So yeah, I do both.
Hmmm your post sounds more like TROLL ... actually 
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jrathfon
Aug 8, 2008, 5:20 PM
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tedman wrote: So I feel like this is a troll, but I'll bite. Who gives a flying fuck? i really dont understand why everyone seems to get their knickers in a twist when people bolt things. If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that. Other people who might not be as experienced or have the $ for a rack right now will appreciate them I'm sure. And please, dont spew the line about bolts being unsightly, I don't believe it for a second. Do you get all puffed up when you see some stuck gear? 'OMG ITS UGLY< I MUST REMOVE IT FOR THE FENG SHWAY OF THE ROUTEZ!'. No, of course you dont, you remove it because you are a greedy bastard who wants it for himself (and who wouldnt?). Unless I'm missing something (and I could be, because I'm not a grizzled 40 year climbing veteran), the only reason people get all pissed off is because the elite and exclusive trad club that had all rights to unbolted lines now has to _share_. holy flying dogshit! people not as dedicated as me arn't allowed on my lines! get off gumby! You must have a swinging dick this long to get on my trad route! Get over yourself! does it really detract from your massive ego that sport climbers can now enjoy the same routes? are you that fucking selfish? And yes, I do climb trad. Not as hard as my sport grade but I've only been at it for the summer. So yeah, I do both.
i'll bite, so we should just add handi-cap access to all pristine areas, mountains, etc. so that all can appreciate spoiled beauty?
we should also dumb down challenges for the less committed in the sport? if someone reallllllly wants and/or needs to climb a line, they will find a way (buy a rack, borrow a rack, etc.) or, they will just find another line or crag.
bolts and fixed gear are defacements. ask a non-climbing nature enthusiast what they think of about all the chalk, hanging draws, bolts, tat, cliff-top and bottom erosion. then ask a private land-owner how they feel about the bolts added to their property when they gave no such permission.
climbing on private property is a priviledge, not a right. you should always behave as such. if you disagree, then you should not be granted this priviledge.
p.s. mine's longer.
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jaablink
Aug 8, 2008, 5:22 PM
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the wall is no more than 60’ in its high spot. IT CAN be top roped. Or if you have the balls and are confident and competent in your ability SOLO IT....
I have my own bolts. I don‘t need someone else’s that will be destroyed when I yank them. In the past I have been contracted to develop private crags in the area (beautiful face red rock in old queries) I replace old unsafe face climb bolts, "on request" by the original developer who does not have time to do it himself because is working on new project outside the area.
As for gear , I have my own.
Go fish
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curtis_g
Aug 8, 2008, 5:26 PM
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crimpandgo wrote: tedman wrote: So I feel like this is a troll, but I'll bite. Who gives a flying fuck? i really dont understand why everyone seems to get their knickers in a twist when people bolt things. If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that. Other people who might not be as experienced or have the $ for a rack right now will appreciate them I'm sure. And please, dont spew the line about bolts being unsightly, I don't believe it for a second. Do you get all puffed up when you see some stuck gear? 'OMG ITS UGLY< I MUST REMOVE IT FOR THE FENG SHWAY OF THE ROUTEZ!'. No, of course you dont, you remove it because you are a greedy bastard who wants it for himself (and who wouldnt?). Unless I'm missing something (and I could be, because I'm not a grizzled 40 year climbing veteran), the only reason people get all pissed off is because the elite and exclusive trad club that had all rights to unbolted lines now has to _share_. holy flying dogshit! people not as dedicated as me arn't allowed on my lines! get off gumby! You must have a swinging dick this long to get on my trad route! Get over yourself! does it really detract from your massive ego that sport climbers can now enjoy the same routes? are you that fucking selfish? And yes, I do climb trad. Not as hard as my sport grade but I've only been at it for the summer. So yeah, I do both. Hmmm your post sounds more like TROLL ... actually
Agreed, he sounds like the troll. It's rare that a case like this surfaces on rc.com, but this dude has the FA and developed a lot of the crag, it sounds like. He talked to the land owner and no one wants the bolts there. They were unwelcome bolts to begin with.
Sounds like case closed to me. It's your FA and you talked to the land owner and have other locals' consensus. Done deal.
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delila99
Aug 8, 2008, 5:41 PM
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there's very little trad climbing in Bosnia, mainly because the rock is inaccessible due to mine fields.. (there's one crag right outside of sarajevo, and cliffs near Pale where trad climbing is possible)
i am so not qualified to say anything here, but the whole animosity between trad & sport climbers baffles me a bit. maybe i'm naive, but i'm in awe of all climbers who climb hard, sport or trad. trad climbers are friggin' badasses (it takes an inordinate amount of guts to place your own gear, trust it, and climb hard)... but so are sport climbers with their gymnastic feats... i dunno... hats off to both... it's be nice if people weren't so elitist, that's all...
just my 2c...
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tedman
Aug 8, 2008, 5:43 PM
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Heres my point, why do YOU care if less committed climbers now have access? How does that degrade from YOUR experience? And if bolting a line makes it so a wheelchair bound climber can get up it, then hell yes bolt it!! I'd love to see that and be cheering them the fuck on the whole time!
Chalk, bolts, hanging draws (I'm assuming you mean the exceedingly few permanent draws installed on routes and not project draws). Seriously, defacements? thats your main point? The erosion, I'll give you that. Better access=more people=more erosion. But is that really YOUR reason for not liking bolts on your favorite trad route? Sure seems like we are worried about it getting popular, and we dont like to share now do we?
And ok, the 12guage wielding land owners do have a right to what goes on on their property, this is amerika, fuck yeah! so trespassing is still trespassing. But really, if we take away all the popularity that bolting would bring to classic routes, all the property owners' angst, when you see a bolt on your trad line, what are the real reasons that you get pissed? Is it really the tree hugging hippie in each of us whose spirit is dampend because of the bruising to mother nature's fragile essence, or is it our ego that cant stand the thought that we put in all this work to be able to climb this route this way, and now some punkass 12 year old with a rope and a bunch of draws can now do the same thing in a much less committing fasion?
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jrathfon
Aug 8, 2008, 5:46 PM
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the case is not a question of elitism or trad vs. sport. it's violation of first ascent ethics, a route, private property, and land owner relations. with no ethics, we could just blow the cliff up or cover it in trash or graffiti. dumbing everything down would lead no trad climbing. both mediums exist for their intended purposes, and typically can coexist in harmony. however there is a time and a place for both styles. in this case, there was no style, just blatant disregard for an area. i would not consider soloing as a viable ascent option, but the OP said the gear is reasonable, not to mention its a trad crag with it's own set of local ethics, and there are truly the ones that matter.
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patmay81
Aug 8, 2008, 5:50 PM
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damn, sounds like any climbing in Bosnia is badass! Low ball bouldering around mine fields is way more ballsy than even the hardest most runout trad climb!
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shockabuku
Aug 8, 2008, 5:56 PM
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troutboy wrote: jaablink wrote: Therefore, I am going to clip them before they draw further attention. I think you mean chopped. jaablink wrote: This is an friendly FYI for someone who is obviously a novice. Clipped vs chopped. Novice ? Pot----->Kettle. Or maybe you're just so pissed you had a brain freeze. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to you on this. TS
Hey, maybe he meant clipped like in the Sopranos. Like whacked, hit, you know, killed.
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jrathfon
Aug 8, 2008, 5:57 PM
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You advocated adding bolts for increased access. I was merely pointing out that your logic can be extended. If we are going to add bolts to trad lines so that all can enjoy, then why don't we add handi-capped access to remote alpine waterfalls? how about everest? (wait, no, that's been done) my point was merely, how come you, mr. elitist sporto, (look i can put you on your high horse and call you elitist as well), need your routes to be bolted in order to climb, that's mighty elitist requiring all of your routes to have bolts, why not save some lines for people who prefer other styles? maybe the trad climbers aren't as sporty and gymnastic as you, and maybe they can't pull down as hard. should we deny them of routes so you can have your precious bolted lines?
of course not, it's silly either way to claim routes in honor of a style. styles coexist, some crags have been developed as one or the other, there are typically many good reasons, no placements, an abundance of placements, loose rock, run-outs, etc. what does matter is the local community. what style do they prefer? what style is the accepted style at the crag? that's what to follow.
why don't i just walk into a gym and say that my accepted style is slopers, and change all routes i want to climb to be all slopers, then yell elitists at the crimp fanatics who all get their crotchety panties in a twist. i know, cause that's dumb. i walked into a scene where i am not part of the community and changed pre-established things to meet my needs, who is elitist?
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jaablink
Aug 8, 2008, 5:58 PM
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It is because of people with your attitude that create climbing access issues. The lack of traditional ethics. You are probably one of them who hangdog and rest on the gear (take !Take! take!). Its ground up and leave no trace here as it is in many other places too. Putting a bolt on an easy trad protect-able line is criminal. Thank God there are a great deal more climbers who hold value to a true traditional ethic.
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jrathfon
Aug 8, 2008, 6:14 PM
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delila99 wrote: In reply to: damn, sounds like any climbing in Bosnia is badass! Low ball bouldering around mine fields is way more ballsy than even the hardest most runout trad climb!  we actually did have to navigate around a minefield on our last bouldering adventure. fun times... this discussion is best left to those qualified... i surely am not... play nice kids
at least it's arid there right?
check out our last month (this will only make sense today):
http://radar.weather.gov/radar.php?rid=ENX&product=NCR&overlay=11101111&loop=yes
thunderstorms, thunderstorms, thunderstorms! woosah! we've already gotten our years supply of rain and then some, it's only the beginning of august!
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Valarc
Aug 8, 2008, 6:17 PM
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jrathfon wrote: the case is not a question of elitism or trad vs. sport. it's violation of first ascent ethics, a route, private property, and land owner relations.
I haven't decided yet whether I agree with that statement in general, but in this case I would almost certainly say it's a question of EGO.
If the OP spends any more time spraying about soloing that cliff, he's going to turn into a skunk.
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