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RangerJ
Aug 25, 2008, 11:37 PM
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After weeks of research on rc.com regarding hauling systems I have yet to come across a forum regarding utilizing an inverted Grigri at the PP of the anchor to replace the traditional *pulley / prusik* combo which is standard on the z-pulley system.
I'm trying to get away from the time consuming process of tying prusik knots around my haul line for the z-pulley while at the same time staying away from jumar type devices which incorporate teeth that bite into the rope (yeah, i'm scared, whats-it-to-you?), and last i simply don't want to spend the money on a giant hauling device as illustrated here:
http://www.climbing.com/print/techtips/ttaid228/
So... in the set-up in question looks like this:
-pig is tied to end of haul line
-haul line goes up to an inverted grigri which is clipped to the power-point of my anchor
- brake end of haul line goes down to a carabiner which is clipped to an inverted jumar secured to the load side of the haul line
- brake end is then re-directed up to me where I begin pulling (or up to another re-direct pulley on my anchor so I can simply pull DOWN instead of UP) when i get tired
(otherwise known as the standard z-pulley setup)
So can any of you people with VASTER amounts of intelligence (I'll settle for experience) find any flaws in this setup? Obviously there is a bit more drag as the haul line isn't running through a pulley at the powerpoint, but I'm hoping the advantage of not having to reset prusiks will outweigh that concern
(and thx, by the way, to pete and kate for outstanding forum posts in the past that have taught me much....)
(This post was edited by RangerJ on Aug 25, 2008, 11:38 PM)
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cracklover
Aug 26, 2008, 12:05 AM
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I'll preface my opinion by saying that I have only minimal wall experience. But since there aren't many real hard wall rats here on rc.com, this'll have to do until one of them pipes up and tells me to shut my pie hole.
Your method will okay for small loads, up to maybe 60-80 lbs. Above that, forget it. The friction through the gri-gri, and also the friction around that bottom biner, will make you hate life, and even running into the smallest divot on the wall will stop the bag cold.
Cheers,
GO
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patmay81
Aug 26, 2008, 12:14 AM
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I'll agree with the 60-80 lb max. But I have to admit also that I have little experience. In fact the largest haul I've had to deal with was only about 60 lbs. And I just hand over handed that one with a prussic back up, so I might need to shut up also.
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RangerJ
Aug 26, 2008, 12:16 AM
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Right on, thx for the reply.
I too was concerned about the friction of running a heavy load through the Grigri, so I went to the local gym and gave it a try (it's as close to real as it's going to get I'm afraid). I threw on 100 lbs of weight at the bottom of the load line, and started hauling. It worked pretty slick, especially since I didn't have to reset any pulleys / jumars and stuff. Simply pull, rest, lower bottom jumar, repeat. But you're right in that I couldn't pull my friend up to me (he would definitely qualify as a "heavy" load). To offset the friction against the carabiners i think I'll incorporate pulleys into any point where the rope touches a biner.
Seeing the cam on the grigri lock against the rope kind of concerns me (hence the post), and am wondering if anyone knows when (or what) is too much for the grigri to handle ( I can assume it's quite a bit as grigri's can catch lead falls, but I'm not assuming anything in this game, especially since I'm testing this on a 16 pitch line)
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dingus
Aug 26, 2008, 12:22 AM
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Maybe a hundred or so hauls, is my 'bone-a-fidy.'
Never tried your proposed rig, so like, I really couldn't say. I'd recommend trying it whilst you're out cragging.... lead a pitch and haul something heavy using your riggin, see how it works.
That 'try it and see' is pretty much the way all wall systems evolved over time.
You could log on to supertopo and ask... and get mocked by people with thousands of hauls under their harnesses. PTPP hangs out there... the acknowledged expert of Rube-Goldberg hauling techniques.... ask him.
I prefer dedicated hauling devices like a Pro Trax or Ushba or the Wall Hauler, myself. I also prefer to keep bag weight such that z-pullys aren't required.
Sorry I couldn't offer more specific feedback.
Good luck
DMT
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coolcat83
Aug 26, 2008, 12:23 AM
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maybe use a pulley and a microcender? it's gentle on the ropes and built for large loads, plus no friction problems, just hang a little weight off the thing (there's an extra hole you can tie a cord into for a attachment) to keep it down so you are not wasting any pull.
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dingus
Aug 26, 2008, 12:25 AM
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RangerJ wrote: Right on, thx for the reply. I too was concerned about the friction of running a heavy load through the Grigri, so I went to the local gym and gave it a try (it's as close to real as it's going to get I'm afraid). I threw on 100 lbs of weight at the bottom of the load line, and started hauling. It worked pretty slick, especially since I didn't have to reset any pulleys / jumars and stuff. Simply pull, rest, lower bottom jumar, repeat. But you're right in that I couldn't pull my friend up to me (he would definitely qualify as a "heavy" load). To offset the friction against the carabiners i think I'll incorporate pulleys into any point where the rope touches a biner. Seeing the cam on the grigri lock against the rope kind of concerns me (hence the post), and am wondering if anyone knows when (or what) is too much for the grigri to handle ( I can assume it's quite a bit as grigri's can catch lead falls, but I'm not assuming anything in this game, especially since I'm testing this on a 16 pitch line)
One thing to keep in mind - hauling on a dead vert gym wall is different (or might be) than hauling, for example, on the slabby first 1000' of the Nose or Salathe Wall on the Captain. The friction of the bag being dragged over the stone can be a killer.
On really steep routes hauling is a considerably less strenuous activity.
Sounds like you're wired to test your systems and theories - you'll work it out!
DMT
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stymingersfink
Aug 26, 2008, 12:30 AM
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cracklover wrote: I'll preface my opinion by saying that I have only minimal wall experience. But since there aren't many real hard wall rats here on rc.com, this'll have to do until one of them pipes up and tells me to shut my pie hole. Your method will okay for small loads, up to maybe 60-80 lbs. Above that, forget it. The friction through the gri-gri, and also the friction around that bottom biner, will make you hate life, and even running into the smallest divot on the wall will stop the bag cold. Cheers, GO
...but yer right, too, though I might go as high as a hundred pounds through the grigri, provided you had another one to utilize on the light-side, which you could use to attach yourself to that side of the haul rope with, thereby making a body-haul possible.
It'd still suck balls though.
Get a Pro-traxion, you'll thank yourself in the longrun for making the intelligent decision.
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RangerJ
Aug 26, 2008, 12:30 AM
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Ah.... good point. The 300 m of S (o) L (lame) A (nd) B (oring) is definitely going to make a mockery of a few of my plans, such as hauling and jumaring.
And climbing for that matter too.
*sigh*
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patmay81
Aug 26, 2008, 12:31 AM
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In reply to: the cam on the grigri lock against the rope kind of concerns me
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RangerJ
Aug 26, 2008, 12:39 AM
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Get a Pro-traxion, you'll thank yourself in the longrun for making the intelligent decision.
Can you lower the pig out with a traxion? (thinking if it got stuck on the way up and needed to be lowered for some reason....)
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colatownkid
Aug 26, 2008, 12:53 AM
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allow me to preface by saying that my bigwall experience is exactly zero. that being said, using a grigri as part of a haul system is perfectly acceptable practice in self-rescue, where the intended load is a person (who i assume would weigh more than your haul bag, unless you have a very large haul bag and a very small partner). given that, i think it would be safe to say that a grigri could comfortably and safely support hauling the pig.
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RangerJ
Aug 26, 2008, 1:24 AM
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Sweeeet. Thx for putting my mind at ease. If anyone else sees any problems (minus the drag as discussed above) PLEASE let me know before I find myself committed......
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iamthewallress
Aug 26, 2008, 1:42 AM
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An inverted ascender w/ some weight clipped on it will automatically keep rope from going back through the pulley. I would be surprised if you could get a gri-gri to auto-feed with the rope running in a straight configuration (instead of the U shape that is usually required for smooth, rapid feeding w/o squeezing the cam).
Also, with all of the slamming around that can happen on wall anchors, I'd hate to have my pig be held in place by something that releases with a push of the lever, even under load. Camming pulleys generally don't release until you take the load off of them.
For really little loads, hand-over-hand through a biner w/ a butt-belay for rests works OK.
Otherwise, it's probably worth your while to have a pulley/ascender system or camming pulley.
(edit) The teeth of the pulley that you use to hold your supplies should expose you to much less risk than the teeth of the ascenders that you use to belay yourself up the rope...which is to say very little. You're (hopefully) always backed up to the lead line when hauling!
(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Aug 26, 2008, 1:54 AM)
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iamthewallress
Aug 26, 2008, 1:47 AM
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RangerJ wrote: "Get a Pro-traxion, you'll thank yourself in the longrun for making the intelligent decision." Can you lower the pig out with a traxion? (thinking if it got stuck on the way up and needed to be lowered for some reason....)
You put the hauling (hand) side of the rope in your grigri, put your gri-gri on your belay loop, give a yank with your body to pull up the load and release the cam on the pulley, and then use your weight to get the load onto the grigri. You then lower w/ the gri-gri as you'd lower a person w/ the now cam-less pulley as a redirect. When you get it as low as you want it, you can reengage the cam and start hauling again.
(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Aug 26, 2008, 1:58 AM)
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RangerJ
Aug 26, 2008, 2:18 AM
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iamthewallress wrote: An inverted ascender w/ some weight clipped on it will automatically keep rope from going back through the pulley. I would be surprised if you could get a gri-gri to auto-feed with the rope running in a straight configuration (instead of the U shape that is usually required for smooth, rapid feeding w/o squeezing the cam). Also, with all of the slamming around that can happen on wall anchors, I'd hate to have my pig be held in place by something that releases with a push of the lever, even under load. Camming pulleys generally don't release until you take the load off of them. For really little loads, hand-over-hand through a biner w/ a butt-belay for rests works OK. Otherwise, it's probably worth your while to have a pulley/ascender system or camming pulley. (edit) The teeth of the pulley that you use to hold your supplies should expose you to much less risk than the teeth of the ascenders that you use to belay yourself up the rope...which is to say very little. You're (hopefully) always backed up to the lead line when hauling!
Cool - this post is drawing some big names....
The reason I'm utilizing the Grigri is to get away from camming devices that utilize toothed cams (and yes, the bottom of the z-pulley is an inverted ascender, but it's not holding the weight per-se "full time", it's always backed up by something bigger). I've heard the stories of ropes popping out of ascenders (and I can't afford a traxion after buying my portaledge), so I'm trying to find other means.
And maybe I should clarify too (so that ppl don't think I'm a complete noob, just a minor one) that the Grigri is only in place until the load gets to the anchor, at which point I transfer it onto a prusik / munter / mule knot which is clipped to the rap rings on my anchor. THEN the haul line behind the accessory cord is tied in a figure 8 and clipped to the rap rings of the anchor to "close" the system in case the smaller accessory cord fails. Then the Grigri is removed (so I can take it up to the next station).
But what, for you ppl, counts as a "smaller load" which you simply raise hand over hand to your station??
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skiclimb
Aug 26, 2008, 4:37 AM
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if you need a z-pulley system to haul your load then trying to use a gri-gri is gonna be even harder.
BTW I have never used a z-pulley on a wall..i've always found it more efficient to straight haul even if i had to attach my ascending rig into the haul line and pull up on the bag at same time as pushing down with my legs.( if you do this back up your pulley with a couple quickdraws and stay tied in on another rope.)
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dyomad
Aug 26, 2008, 4:48 AM
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You just revealed yourself to be noob in your non-noob statement: Never put anything through the rap rings on an anchor. That way you can always make an easy exit in the event of an emergency.
Just kidding about the "noob" thing. Everyone learns sometime and hopefully never stops learning either.
Hauling is most likely what is going to shut you down on any given wall. It will kick your ass and laugh at you while you're trying to get cell reception to call your mom to cry. That being said, good on you for exploring other options.
Here's my thoughts:
Toothed cams tend to fail under cleaning situations, not hauling. Weird angles and passing knots or re-belays or putting one ascender over a piece to unweight it are all places where toothed cams can give you trouble. Hauling is typically a constant load in a constant direction. Cost is one thing but I wouldn't be afraid of toothed cams and ascenders for juggin or hauling.
I've definitely used a gri-gri for light loads (I usually use it as on my tag rack line) up to say 50lbs. It isn't pretty with a little friction. A quick rule of thumb might be:
20-30lbs.-Garda Hitch
30-40lbs.-GriGri
40-60lbs.-Mini-Traxion
60-80lbs.-Pro-Traxion
80lbs.+ Kong Roll-Block
Obviously you can supplement 2:1s or body hauling or space hauling or simul-hauling or 10:1 or whatever as needed, the point is the Grigri is less than ideal but it'll work.
Your ledge and fly likely weigh 20+lbs, water and food for two days is another 20+lbs., clothes and sleeping bags and etc., etc. and all the sudden you're PTPP, getting mail on El Cap and creating your own gravity with your parade of pigs. I'd beg, borrow or steal a pulley or prepare to suffer. Well you'll suffer regardless but prepare to suffer even more.
I'll be in the Valley October 4th and you're welcome to borrow a toothed pulley from me then. Best of luck!
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holdplease2
Aug 26, 2008, 5:40 AM
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OK, if you're going to be afraid of hauling a moderate load using a toothed ascender, then by logic you'd have to be afraid of jumaring with them, too. You are a 130+ pound load not shock loading on a rope, with the ascender grabbing the line. Your pig is a ?lb load not shock loading on a rope, with the ascender grabbing the rope. Same thing.
I'd say don't go the protraxion route, just use one of your ascenders and a small pulley. There is more freedom of movement in the system, less chance of torquing and blowing out (it happens) it weighs less, its more versatile, its cheaper, and if you need a bigger pulley later for some real loads, you don't have a totally wasted device. You have an extra pulley that you can use for your mechanical advantage system or a backup.
-Kate.
-Kate.
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quiteatingmysteak
Aug 26, 2008, 6:47 AM
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I read the title and my hips got pre-bruised.
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marde
Aug 26, 2008, 10:49 AM
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I see absolutely no problem with the teeth.
I never had a jumar fail on me by now.
I never cut the sheath off a rope while cleaning.
(If jumars cut ropes the backup knots would be pretty useless).
And my pig was always not nearly as fat as me.
So go for a pulley and an (inverted) ascender like Kate said
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stymingersfink
Aug 26, 2008, 12:58 PM
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RangerJ wrote: Get a Pro-traxion, you'll thank yourself in the longrun for making the intelligent decision.
Can you lower the pig out with a traxion? (thinking if it got stuck on the way up and needed to be lowered for some reason....)Well, not solely with a traxion, but with the tools you have at hand, most certainly could.
edit to add:
^^Yeah, listen to Kate. She's right <aghast>, you know.
(This post was edited by stymingersfink on Aug 26, 2008, 1:02 PM)
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summerprophet
Aug 26, 2008, 3:12 PM
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Allright,
Hre is your issue. You don't wanna used toothed ascenders for your haul system, The desheath the rope, blah blah blah.
Hee are the facts. Any manufactureer can make an ascender toothed or toothless, it is a minor design change. The reason EVERYONE of them went with toothed is because it will desheath the rope long before complete failure.
Camming devices continue to lock down on the rope until the rope is pinched off, complete and catastrophic failure (usually at or near the point the device actually deforms anyways).
Toothed ascenders are tools for big walls, every one uses them in their hauls, (including yourself). Trying to come up with a better way is honorable, but trying to do so as a resust of being cheap is painful and possibly hazardous.
Hauling is going to be 60 to 70 percent of the total work done on a wall. If ANY of your systems need to be dialed it is hauling. An f%$ked up system that adds any more friction than nessesary could easilly be the difference between success and failure.
Look around for deals on hauling gear. If you swear by camming ascenders, a rock exotica or Petzl rescuecender could be utilized, It is a linear (IE less friction) camming style mechanical prussik. Or of course, beg , borrow or steal a Pro-traxion- easilly changed over to lowering (although anyone on a big wall should know how to arrange a munter mule/ LR hitch / blockers hitch to prepare for inevitable problems.
If you can be swayed over to a toothed system, and are not going to have live bodies on your haul system, you should be able to find cast off rock exotica / petzl wall haulers, as everyone is upgrading to pro trax.
If you swear by using your gri gri, do yourself a favor and pull out the hacksaw and file, and grind off the triangle shaped piece of metal on the top. It will make your life far easier by reducing friction during the haul, (although not near as much as other systems), and haul on 9 mm ropes.
As far as jumars popping off the ropes, this is easilly remedied with a single biner.
As far as Gri-gri failure, pretty much a non issue, assuming proper use.
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cracklover
Aug 26, 2008, 4:32 PM
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RangerJ wrote: I've heard the stories of ropes popping out of ascenders (and I can't afford a traxion after buying my portaledge), so I'm trying to find other means.
I didn't realize this was why you wanted to avoid using a toothed ascender to hold the haul line. I'm sorry, but you're mixing apples with oranges.
Ropes pop out of ascenders when you're loading the ascender in a direction different than the direction of the rope (think of it like tri-axial loading). This can happen when following a traverse. But hauling? Unlike in following a traverse - where you can have three loads on the device - when the pig is hanging on the ascender there are only ever two directions of force, and they're directly equal and opposite, just like the device likes.
Don't get me wrong - I've used a gri-gri in place of the top pulley, but the load was maybe 50 lbs at most. No way would I want to do it in the way you're describing, and certainly not for the reason you give.
With all the friction in the system you describe, in order to move a heavy pig, you're going to have to use a hell of a lot of force. And that means more than just you getting beat up. It also means you're putting your systems in the red-zone. Biners can get torqued and do bad things, ropes can get ground against edges hard enough to get core shots. You get the picture.
GO
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flamer
Aug 26, 2008, 8:04 PM
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RangerJ wrote: iamthewallress wrote: I've heard the stories of ropes popping out of ascenders If this is truly of concern clip a carabiner through the hole(s) on the top of the ascender, and around the rope in the same spot. Voila'! the ascender shall no longer be able to "pop". If you really want to use a Z type setup look up the Chongo hauling ratchet...it's easy to move in and out of your system and add's a 2:1. But for 16 pitchs why would you need that much stuff? HAVE FUN! josh
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