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iamthewallress
Aug 26, 2008, 8:21 PM
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flamer wrote: RangerJ wrote: iamthewallress wrote: I've heard the stories of ropes popping out of ascenders If this is truly of concern clip a carabiner through the hole(s) on the top of the ascender, and around the rope in the same spot. Voila'! the ascender shall no longer be able to "pop". If you really want to use a Z type setup look up the Chongo hauling ratchet...it's easy to move in and out of your system and add's a 2:1. But for 16 pitchs why would you need that much stuff? HAVE FUN! josh I didn't say that! (Although it happens...just not often at the haul.)
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flamer
Aug 26, 2008, 9:28 PM
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
OOPS! Sorry Melissa! I didn't remove the part where you where quoted as saying something else!
My bad!
So It was ranger J that said the above quoted....NOT iamthewallress........
josh
P.S.
Hope you're climbing alot Melissa!
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RangerJ
Aug 26, 2008, 11:58 PM
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holy crap - leave for one night and look what i get... cool
dyomad - i am going to *try* to de-noob myself by clarifying that my anchor consists of accessory cord with a rap ring previously threaded through it to ease the clipping in / out or carabiners instead of having to clip all those CF of biners into the cord itself. so, with that in mind, what the hell is easier than unclipping the biners on my "umbilical slings" from the rap ring to make an "easy exit in the event of an emergency"???
p.s. thx for the (several) rule of thumb(s) regarding weight loads - that was helpful, and I can only dream of being as cool as PTPP - if all I have to do is haul up the kitchen sink I may just do that...
and unfortunately, for me, the Valley is 23 hrs straight south from where I am, so I won't make it for Oct the 4th... unless anyone wants to sponsor me....
Kate - thx for the blanket clause on the toothed camming devices, the dismissal of fear from veterans is exactly what I was looking for when I posted this (but see below please)
Steak - your hips aren't nearly as bruised as mine after 4 hrs of trying different systems that included everything from garda hitches to tiblocs to ascenders to grigris... but you don't get better unless you experiment , right??
Prophet - I'm not cheap, i'm broke... BIG difference ;) feel free to mail me your discarded haulers. i will, however, ask you why you threw in the bit about "if you are not going to have live bodies on your hauls system..."??? if my hauling system fails it'll either shockload my anchor and pull it out (and therefore me with it), or fall and possibly land on the head of the poor bastard who choose poorly to come up behind me (either way, it seems, indirectly there's a live load at the end of it - so shouldn't it be treated just as carefully as if it were a person?)
flamer - true, the 16 pitches can be done in a day, but not for a guy who's practicing some rope soloing / hauling / ledge bivying in preparation for other, more meaner lines (which is why this line is... *draws breath in anticipation of expected disappointment* a sport line - this month Aschler Ridge, next month El Cap...)
to all - I'm starting to be persuaded that toothed ascender aren't as scary as I had first imagined (so pat yourselves on the back), AFTER you answer one more question: is there any degradation in the rope quality after putting a number of miles on them with the jumars / toothed hauling devices? I'd hate to have to retire my roeps after just a season of a few big wall enterprises....
and now let the flaming begin... (gods, but i DO love rc.com)
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stymingersfink
Aug 27, 2008, 12:24 AM
Post #29 of 93
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RangerJ wrote: i will, however, ask you why you threw in the bit about "if you are not going to have live bodies on your hauls system..."??? if my hauling system fails it'll either shockload my anchor and pull it out (and therefore me with it), or fall and possibly land on the head of the poor bastard who choose poorly to come up behind me (either way, it seems, indirectly there's a live load at the end of it - so shouldn't it be treated just as carefully as if it were a person?)
IMHO, Wall Haulers are a technology that has come and gone. Sure, maybe they were the shit in their day, but their day has passed.
With my pro-traxion, I don't feel nervous about working off the light-side of the haul without a dynamic tether, though I still clip the b/u locker around the haul line just in case.
Every one of us takes their life in their own hands by choosing to go anywhere near the base of a large cliff.Read this post here for an account of the dangers of even approaching the base of a big wall.
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iamthewallress
Aug 27, 2008, 12:26 AM
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It's not the teeth that will thrash your rope so much as the amount of time it spends getting stretched under load or worse...rubbing on rock while getting stretched under load.
Climbing walls will cost you some money unless you're really good at getting people to give or loan you stuff.
The more risk averse you are when it comes to retiring everything on the manufacturer recommended schedule, the spendier it gets.
FWIW, non-core-shot retired lead lines make good haul lines, and are better than a static if you need to use it as a back-up lead line.
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flamer
Aug 27, 2008, 1:20 AM
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RangerJ wrote: flamer - true, the 16 pitches can be done in a day, but not for a guy who's practicing some rope soloing / hauling / ledge bivying in preparation for other, more meaner lines (which is why this line is... *draws breath in anticipation of expected disappointment* a sport line - this month Aschler Ridge, next month El Cap...)
Sorry! i wasn't actually implying that you should do it IAD. I should have been more clear. I was trying to say don't get caught up in the "kitchen sink" mentality. It's very easy to start throwing things into the bag that you MIGHT need/want.
You'll be happier in the long run if you think carefully about what you take.
Think about how much food you eat normally...then take just *alittle* more.....and shit can as many of the boxe's/wrappers/ extra stuff they put in with it as you can. Water...what do you normally drink? Etc.
Some deep thinking on the ground can save you some grunt work in the sky!
Although I'm a big fan of going lite and fast, IAD stylee. I've spent a few nights on walls and find it plenty fun and rewarding in it's own right.
I have 1 hard and fast rule for whatever you do in climbing...HAVE FUN.
josh
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flamer
Aug 27, 2008, 1:29 AM
Post #32 of 93
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stymingersfink wrote: With my pro-traxion, I don't feel nervous about working off the light-side of the haul without a dynamic tether, though I still clip the b/u locker around the haul line just in case.
Whoa. Hang on.
Are you saying that you body haul, attached only to the "non working end" ie the side you are pulling on...by your ascenders? Which is attached(to the anchor) only by the hauling device?
If that's the case you are much braver than I.
I'd never do it without being tied into the anchor with the lead line. 20 to 30 ft tether for the haul.
I know the Protrax is rated to haul people, but still.
josh
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stymingersfink
Aug 27, 2008, 1:42 AM
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flamer wrote: stymingersfink wrote: With my pro-traxion, I don't feel nervous about working off the light-side of the haul without a dynamic tether, though I still clip the b/u locker around the haul line just in case. Whoa. Hang on. Are you saying that you body haul, attached only to the "non working end" ie the side you are pulling on...by your ascenders? Which is attached(to the anchor) only by the hauling device? If that's the case you are much braver than I. I'd never do it without being tied into the anchor with the lead line. 20 to 30 ft tether for the haul. I know the Protrax is rated to haul people, but still. josh  .
I was thinkin' I used my grigri on my 10mm haul line for my b/u, but in thinking about it... that don't seem like it would make things any easier.
I guess if I did teatherless hauling on the light side, I musta been pretty fukkin' high. 
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holdplease2
Aug 27, 2008, 2:20 AM
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RJ:
See, here's the deal. Your hauling system can have redundancy built in.
1) Concerned your pulley will fail (Protraxions have), place a quickdraw or screamer draw around the rope feeding out of the pulley on one side and into a powerpoint. This is what you do if you are counterweight hauling with live load...plus a tether from the climber who is the load to the anchor made of lead rope.
2) You have to pull on the rope with something...if you just use your hands, you don't have a heavy enough load to justify a pulley. Typically, you will use an ascender clipped onto your harness and squat with your feet in your aiders to haul, one hand on the anchor, one hand on the handled ascender on your waist. The other way to do it is to "Leg haul" where you put an ascender and aider on the loose end of the rope, and pump your leg up and down in the aider to haul, one hand on the ascender, the other on the anchor. Keep this ascender attached to you with a daisy.
In this way, should your cam fail to grab (it happens) the worst that happens is your load drops a few more inches than expected, possibly with your ascender from your haul resting against the pulley. Should your pulley fail (rare but possible) you end up counterweighting your pig through a quickdraw, your weight on your ascender, the pig on the end of the rope.
Either way, the failure will is far less likely to result in a dropped pig if you do things this way.
-Kate.
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RangerJ
Aug 27, 2008, 3:50 AM
Post #36 of 93
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stymingersfink wrote: The haul PP was always a separate anchor, such that catastrophy wouldn't necessarily drag the team off
Garr.... I REALLY didn't want my vast inexperience of big walls to surface, but my extreme ego and manliness can take a back seat for a few minutes: if you're at a bolted station (2 bolts, not 3), with NO place to put in a trad anchor, how do you get away from the mentality of having the haul line on a separate anchor... or do we not care anymore because of the infailability of the almighty bolt??
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skiclimb
Aug 27, 2008, 4:50 AM
Post #37 of 93
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uhhhm if you are worried about damaging your rope with toothed ascenders ...wellll
first off you should be using static line..prefferably sterling
I pity the fool who hauls with a dynamic rope...or i laugh at them.
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RangerJ
Aug 27, 2008, 4:54 AM
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Oh yeah, it'll be static.... momma didn't raise no fool, only a curious one that gets in over his head sometimes.
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holdplease2
Aug 27, 2008, 5:04 AM
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Why not haul on a static line?
I pity the fool that gets a core shot in his lead line and doesn't have a spare.
I pity the fool that drops his pig 10 feet on a static line and blows his anchor.
I pity the fool that decides to fix pitches from a basecamp and has to "Rope Shuffle" to have a dynamic line to lead on.
I pity the fool who spends $200 on a static line when he has 3 lead lines around the house that will work just fine.
I pity the fool that gets the chop on his lead line, and falls to the end of his haul line (its happened) only to find that, oops, it was static.
And finally, I pity the fool that thinks that pulling two feet of dynamic rope through the pulley device is dramatically different from pulling two feet of static rope through the haul device.
Even PTPP, who has railed for years that the 2:1 ratchet wouldn't work on a static sheepishly admitted that, after we hauled my pigs on a dynamic and his on a static, he couldn't tell the difference. :)
The only real difference we noticed was losing 10 feet of stretch when lowering the pig onto the dynamic line...but having the leader cinch it tight from the top took care of a lot of this.
Plusses for both static and dynamic haul lines, maybe just be sure you know the upsides and downsides of both before deciding. Depends on your situation?
I climbed at least a dozen walls with static before switching to dynamic, but am much happier with my dynamic line for the reasons mentioned above.
YMMV
-Kate.
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holdplease2
Aug 27, 2008, 5:06 AM
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By the way...isnt it great to see this much action in the aid forum?
And a second for Sterling Ropes. Hauled all of the static climbs ever on one sterling 9 mil...it finally got the chop in a little rockfall incident this spring.
:)
-Kate.
(This post was edited by holdplease2 on Aug 27, 2008, 5:37 AM)
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RangerJ
Aug 27, 2008, 5:44 AM
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Oh..... ZING (and various other Batman sounds). THAT... was awesome. I fell off my chair laughing, and now have to explain why to a gym full of plastic pullers what's funny about debating static vs dynamic lines.
I was voting for the static line simply because of the pig dropping away from my lower anchor (if it was a dynamic line) and me being unable to retrieve my prusik / munter / mule chord that I just used to lower my pig off of said anchor (in my situation I have no one to pull tight on the haul line above).
BUT... now I'm questioning that after the "lead rope core-shot" scenario. Really, how often does that happen on rock (in my 13 years not once, but then this'll be my first big wall, and rope soloed at that....)
*sigh once for going back to the drawing board... AGAIN*
holdplease2 wrote: By the way...isnt it great to see this much action in the aid forum? -Kate.
*giggle once because I'm STILL laughing at how this post has exploded*
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holdplease2
Aug 27, 2008, 5:57 AM
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Hey RJ:
Haha, no Zinging intended, I just like picturing Mr. T giving a lecture on the merits of dynamic haul lines. :)
A damaged lead line is more likely in wall climbing because the rope is 1) weighted more and 2) is held in one place against rock irregularities while it is jugged. (It is important to jug smooooothly to reduce the sawing action). Ricardo nearly offed himself on one of his solos by jugging 400+ feet, with each little bounce sawing through his rope on an unforseen edge.
Usually, on a free climb, even if the second falls 2-3 places on the pitch, and there is one rough edge, a different point on the rope is touching the edge for each fall, as long as he/she didn't fall on the same move each time.
Also, with your rope spending day after day strung out, it can get hit by rockfall. I've lost one rope to a core shot while leading and one haul line due to rock fall.
Regarding your prusik retrieval, many many pitches will traverse enough that you wouldn't be able to retrieve it anyway, as you would lower out the pig anywhere from 10 feet to even 100 feet on a given pitch.
You can always just use the tail of your haul line (use a 70 meter, maybe) as the lower out line. When the leader gets to the high point, rather than pulling up the entire haul line, he/she just pulls up enough to get the haul started, then you fix the pig at that point on the haul, throw the haul line tail onto a munter and release the pig onto that. I typically run a 25 foot dedicated line that is both the docking tether and lowerout. Its 8 mil static. For longer lower outs, I usually know theyre coming based on topos or if the route is overhanging, just cut her loose.
Anyway, isn't all this talking about aid climbing fun? Soon it will be nice and cool and we'll be out there doing it instead!
:)
-Kate.
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cracklover
Aug 27, 2008, 2:38 PM
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RangerJ wrote: BUT... now I'm questioning that after the "lead rope core-shot" scenario. Really, how often does that happen on rock (in my 13 years not once, but then this'll be my first big wall, and rope soloed at that....)
I'll give another case: A wall in Zion. On one of the early pitches, I was at a huge bushy ledge - my anchor was 20 feet back on the ledge, extended to me with the lead rope I was tied in on. The pig was anchored to the lead rope, just upstream from my tie-in. Okay, so start hauling. 50 feet of hauling later, notice that - oops - the lead line running over the edge of the rock just before the power-point has been getting rubbed hard with every haul on the pig, and is well on its way to sawing through the whole sheath. I padded it with my T shirt as soon as I noticed, but still wound up having to cut that section of rope off later.
I'm sure that was a n00b/gumby move on my part, but still, shit happens with heavy loads on a wall. Anyway, my noobishness is no reason to discount my story. After all - you (the OP) will soon be a n00b too.
GO
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holdplease2
Aug 27, 2008, 4:07 PM
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Yeah, I managed to get two core shots in the same rope trying to clean an off-route pitch in Zion. That fractured sandstone has some sharp edges. In this case, I saw it coming after the lead and ran a backup the whole time I cleaned by leaving the haul rope slack and staying tied into it. Had to retire the rope, obviously.
I highly recommend learning to jug softly. It the first thing anyone told me about Aid Climbing. He said "When I'm jugging the rope, the person at the anchor can't even tell. You jug softly because your life depends on it."
I recently climbed a wall with someone who barely knew how to jug, and dropped one of his ascenders. The result was incredibly bouncy jugging, which he refused to take seriously. Not cool.
Anyway, another good safeguard is to climb with a rope with a thicker sheath. The Sterling Marathon series is awesome, it has a higher percentage of sheath than their other lines. Yates also makes a bomber wall rope based on the same concept. The Mammut Supersafe goes about it a different way, by putting some kevlar (or something) in the sheath.
-Kate.
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stymingersfink
Aug 27, 2008, 7:02 PM
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RangerJ wrote: stymingersfink wrote: The haul PP was always a separate anchor, such that catastrophy wouldn't necessarily drag the team off Garr.... I REALLY didn't want my vast inexperience of big walls to surface, but my extreme ego and manliness can take a back seat for a few minutes: if you're at a bolted station (2 bolts, not 3), with NO place to put in a trad anchor, how do you get away from the mentality of having the haul line on a separate anchor... or do we not care anymore because of the infailability of the almighty bolt??
The aid lines in the Wasatch that I've been on are 3-4 pitches at most... no reason to haul, no reason to bivy.
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RangerJ
Aug 28, 2008, 12:34 AM
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holdplease2 wrote: You can always just use the tail of your haul line (use a 70 meter, maybe) as the lower out line. -Kate.
I agree with pmyche - thx for the spiel on the ropes...
Your idea of tying the haul bag 5 m (or so) from the end of the haul line, and then utilizing that last remaining 5 m to secure the pig to your anchor via a munter / mule knot is ingenious... I wish I could have seen that earlier. It removes an unneeded 15 feet of 8 mm static cord from the inventory list. BUT it also (i found during practice) keeps the haul bag closer to the lower anchor after I have transfered the pig to the high anchor via letting that munter run out (that sentence took 20 minutes to write....)
HOWEVER, I have a new challenge for you guys. You've convinced me that toothed ascenders aren't as bad as I had been led to believe, however utilizing it in the hauling technique isn't going to work for me, as I'm rope soloing this and there is no one to manage the anchor system up top. As well, to add to the game, I don't have a pro trax: I only have a couple of pulleys, two ascenders, various slings and biners, that damned Grigri, and a fixed level of ingenuity (the money's been spent on a ledge and other gear, and in the future the inventory will expand, but for now it is what it is).
While climbing to the next anchor, I'm climbing on one lead line and dragging up one end of my haul line (the other, as mentioned above, is holding the pig on the lower anchor). When I get to my high anchor, I need to fix the haul line to that high anchor because I have to rappell down the pitch to tear apart my bottom anchor. So if I use the *pulley / reversed toothed ascender* that everyone suggests, then I'm down to one ascender to jug back up the line.
Therefore, I had thought, that by utilizing a Grigri at the high anchor I had the best of both worlds. It would fix the haul line, but still leave the loose end.... pullable... for when I'm ready to start hauling. The z-pulley system I had hoped would compensate for any drag experienced in the Grigri.
If there's better ideas out there lemme know (except for the blanket clause of buying more gear, cause it ain't gonna happen... with the exception of maybe another ascender....)
Thx for the ideas in advance, this post so far has surpassed my expectations.... ;)
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skiclimb
Aug 28, 2008, 1:22 AM
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holdplease2 wrote: Why not haul on a static line? I pity the fool that gets a core shot in his lead line and doesn't have a spare. I pity the fool that drops his pig 10 feet on a static line and blows his anchor. I pity the fool that decides to fix pitches from a basecamp and has to "Rope Shuffle" to have a dynamic line to lead on. I pity the fool who spends $200 on a static line when he has 3 lead lines around the house that will work just fine. I pity the fool that gets the chop on his lead line, and falls to the end of his haul line (its happened) only to find that, oops, it was static. And finally, I pity the fool that thinks that pulling two feet of dynamic rope through the pulley device is dramatically different from pulling two feet of static rope through the haul device. Even PTPP, who has railed for years that the 2:1 ratchet wouldn't work on a static sheepishly admitted that, after we hauled my pigs on a dynamic and his on a static, he couldn't tell the difference. :) The only real difference we noticed was losing 10 feet of stretch when lowering the pig onto the dynamic line...but having the leader cinch it tight from the top took care of a lot of this. Plusses for both static and dynamic haul lines, maybe just be sure you know the upsides and downsides of both before deciding. Depends on your situation? I climbed at least a dozen walls with static before switching to dynamic, but am much happier with my dynamic line for the reasons mentioned above. YMMV -Kate.
Hey Kate far be it from me (a moderately experience wall hacker) to argue with you much about the fine points of wallclimbing as you certainly have more experience than I...
However ..the first couple wall I did I used dynamic..then got a good .5 stretch sterling dynamic and my gawd ..what a difference i noticed..especially on semi-slabby hauls.
Just assumed most experienced wall climbers had the same opinion..
Any Idea why our experiences seem opposite?
Wonder if part of my observation is due to the fact that I was still rapidly becomeing a better wall climber between my 2nd and 3rd wallZ?...SO all in all hings were getting easier just because I was gennerally getting better at it?
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holdplease2
Aug 28, 2008, 1:35 AM
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Hey Skiclimb:
Could be because I only climb overhanging routes? Haven't hauled much of a slab in awhile.
Plus, are you squat-hauling or running down the wall backwards?
What aspect of the hauling did you notice to be improved? That might help to sort out the differences.
I totally love the sterling superstatic, it has just enough stretch not to kill you (maybe) if you dump your pigs, but is still pretty static. Can't lead on it tho.
Still, for the safety and versatility, I'll take a slightly less fun haul, most likely.
Love to hear your thoughts on your experience.
-Kate.
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jajen
Aug 28, 2008, 2:05 AM
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RangerJ wrote: When I get to my high anchor, I need to fix the haul line to that high anchor because I have to rappell down the pitch to tear apart my bottom anchor. So if I use the *pulley / reversed toothed ascender* that everyone suggests, then I'm down to one ascender to jug back up the line.
Clean the pitch with one ascender and the gri-gri.
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m-earle
Aug 28, 2008, 2:07 AM
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I havn't read the entire thread, so maybe someones talked about this already, but anyways...
Using a gri-gri to tighten a slackline once, it became apparent that the gri-gri was being overloaded, and in fact, the sever angle of the cam led to the device cutting through a bit of the rope's sheath (it was static). under that load, it was also impossible to release tension with the lever. even after we cut the rope, the cam had bit into the rope so hard, that it took ten minutes to pop it out.
I would avoid hauling with a gri-gri because a heavy pig could lead to a similar experience.
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