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jermanimal
Sep 4, 2008, 3:40 PM
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I am new to setting and put up my second bolts and bucket route (vs tape on existing holds route) two days ago. Last night was the first time people "got on it" and gave me feedback.
I was setting for myself, I wanted a route that incorporated stuff I liked and mixed in some tricks, natural holds (gym has entreprise fiberglass wall) and some dummy hands. Also playing with forced movements into those location.
I thought it was a 5.10b maybe. I sent it first go, after I put in the last hold.
Now everyone said it was really tough and lead route setter said it was a 5.11a.
So my question is, if you set a mild 5.10 if it is done right and don't skip holds, it is clearly a mild 5.10, but if you mix in a bunch of "tricks" into the route does that make it harder?
On one hand it makes the route more analytical for the 5.10 climber and challenging still for the 5.12 climber.
You wouldn't call a 5.6 a 5.11 if you skipped 3/4th of the holds.
Thoughts?
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rock_ranger
Sep 4, 2008, 3:52 PM
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Silly rabbit.."tricks" are 4 kids
sorry couldn't help it 
besides, 99% of replies on this site are worthless anyways..lol
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Valarc
Sep 4, 2008, 3:55 PM
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When you watched people climb it, did they do it using your "trick" beta, or did they do it another way? If they didn't use your beta, have them climb it again with your beta, and see what they say ratings-wise.
I generally bump things up a half grade or so if there is a move that's tricky to figure out. Realize that, since you climb harder, those tricky moves will be easier for you to figure out than for someone who climbs at the grade you're setting. I run into this all the time with weird mantles and footwork, especially on easy problems. It's really easy to set a route that feels like a 5.8 to me, with a move that's ridiculously simple with a backstep flag, but an average 5.8 indoor climber has probably never done a backstep flag in his life, so for him the move will be a lot harder to figure out. I might call it an 8+ or even a 9 at that point, not because the route is hard to climb, because it's hard to read.
For what it's worth, I do this solely to avoid pissing people off, and not because I feel it's an accurate rating system. I've been accused of being a dirty, dirty sandbagger anyway, so I try to give a little when it comes to rating tricky routes.
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joek
Sep 4, 2008, 4:05 PM
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rock_ranger wrote: Silly rabbit.."tricks" are 4 kids sorry couldn't help it besides, 99% of replies on this site are worthless anyways..lol
Way to pad the stats...
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chossmonkey
Sep 4, 2008, 4:35 PM
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rock_ranger wrote: Silly rabbit.."tricks" are 4 kids sorry couldn't help it besides, 99% of replies on this site are worthless anyways..lol
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chossmonkey
Sep 4, 2008, 4:38 PM
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jermanimal wrote: So my question is, if you set a mild 5.10 if it is done right and don't skip holds, it is clearly a mild 5.10, but if you mix in a bunch of "tricks" into the route does that make it harder?
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ax
Sep 7, 2008, 2:06 PM
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Yes it does make it harder.
In addition to rating a routes difficulty by the strength required to climb it, you must also rate it by the technique required to climb it. Technique includes the ability to decipher cryptic sequences. For example... you will rarely if ever find challenging cross through moves on 5.9s and less. You usually don't see high high steps, required backsteps, or bump moves till you get into the hard 5.10s and 11s... etc.
As an experienced route setter, I've learned that the general climbing community (< 5.12) prefers easier to read routes. In cases like this I usually tell setters "don't try to be too clever... just hand it to 'em".
That is ... if you want others to enjoy your routess.
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Valarc
Sep 7, 2008, 9:07 PM
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I disagree - I've found that the routes that get the most traffic for the grade tend to be the trickier ones, at least once you hit around the 5.9 point where you can actually start using some tricks.
I guess it depends on your customer base, and also the type of climbing they are used to. I've worked hard to "train" my climbers to expect sneaky sequences, and I get told regularly that they enjoy the creative puzzle solving aspect of routes as much or more than the outright hard-to-pull moves. I guess I would say our "gym climbers" are more "climbers who are climbing in a gym at the moment". Boring setting begets boring climbers... not that I'm saying your setting is boring, but you might be able to shift your climbers' opinions with a well balanced mix of styles. IMHO, it's more a question of psychology than of setting skill (I'm sure you're both more experienced and more skillful a setter than I am).
I would say one in five of my routes has some sort of sneaky trick or gimmick, and while there are always a few powerhouse crimpaholics who despise them, by and large they get a disproportionately huge chunk of the traffic compared to the less creative routes.
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kmsmoguls
Sep 7, 2008, 10:33 PM
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When I set I do not place dummy hands. Ideally my goal is to have every hold used and needed. Clearly this is an impossible goal but one I still shoot for. When I set I try to make interesting sequences that still make the climber perform that sequence. This forces the climber to think about the moves. I set a lot of traverses and sometime down climbing (which is interesting to watch people figure out)
One possible reason why your route felt easy for you is that you know the beta. I don't grade my routes. I get as many people on them as possible and let them decide. There will always be a range but i will take the average. Hope this helps.
EPH
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petsfed
Sep 7, 2008, 11:04 PM
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First, if you don't try to challenge people, your routes will be BORING. Even if its a technique they know, a seldom used technique will add spice to the problem.
Second, it is nearly impossible to force a move on an easy problem. If its easy, there are enough holds close enough together that pure brute strength will get you through everything. This is true for most everything below 5.10 (if that's not the case at your gym, consider the inflated grades ... compensation). You can always finesse your way up the 5.6, but if the only way to do a route is with finesse, it ain't 5.6.
Third, I don't ever feel obligated to uprate my routes because a climber does not know a technique. Pre-drop knees, some modern 5.12s went 5.13. Pre-Leavittation, some 5.4s that I can think of went at 5.8. Does that mean those routes are in fact harder? NO. It just means that the climber needs to learn more technique. There is no sense in coddling people. If somebody shows them the beta that makes your 10b a 10b, then they will be a better climber for it.
Fourth, there is nothing wrong with sandbagging if everybody is in on it. However, a one-man-against-the-world approach, either for or against sandbagging, simply wins you the derision of the masses. Be like the reed in the river, yeah?
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Senate156
Sep 8, 2008, 12:45 AM
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I am definitely one of those who spend way too many days/hours in the gym, but I'm not a route setter by any means.
That being said, yes, tricky routes are awesome...I love going home and obsessing over a particular route, drawing out the sequence and trying to figure out to make the moves.
on the other hand, I hate it when the crux is low, within the first couple moves. It just gets annoying...sure you can bypass that move and get a little satisfaction that way, but it's still frustrating.
I like the way my current gym handles the ratings. Basically there are 3 ratings...Easy, Mod, and Hard. Sometimes there are + and - to the mod and hard routes, but that's pretty rare. I like it this way though because it's much less of a psychological factor.
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lena_chita
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Sep 8, 2008, 1:29 AM
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Without knowing anything about your route, I can only say this:
You are new to this, and if the lead route setter at the gym, as well as a fair number of other people, say that the route feels like 5.11a, I would probably believe them over you.
If you set the route, it is almost the same as if you worked on the redpoint. You have probably tried all the moves several times, so of course it might feel easier to you than to someone climbing it for the first time. Some routes are hard to figure out on the onsight, but much easier once you know the sequence. So? What else is new? Just like some areas "outside" seem to grade routes on their 'onsight feel' but others grade on their 'redpoint feel'...
Depending on how your gym is set up, it might be important to label something 5.10b or 5.11a. At our gym the routes are graded easy/medium/hard/very hard, so even with the various opinions that have been expressed about your route, it would still fall into "medium" category, and the difference of opinion between "medium" and "medium plus" would be considered not enough to spend time thinking about it. I kinda like that attitude... besides, just like outside, there could be a 5.10b route that feels like 5.11a to me b/c I can't reach something and have to do a tricky move, but to the route-setter, who is 8-10 inches taller than me, it feels like an easy move. Or, it could be a move that feels easy to me b/c I can fit all three fingers into a pocket or feel more comfortable on a smaller crimp, but to the route-setter feels harder b/c of his bigger hands...
Now, back to the route-setting, I think it is cool to have routes with tricks. "Decoy" holds, funky moves-- bring them on! You can go overboard, and if you always set with the same tricks, it can get boring, too. But a few of those will only make stuff interesting. This is why I like to climb routes set by different people-- b/c everyone sets different types of moves.
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shockabuku
Sep 8, 2008, 2:56 AM
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In my experience as a climber getting on "tricky" routes, not many people are really interested in your tricks, especially if they're not used to that kind of setting. Discussing the merits of routes with a good number of different setters with a wide range of experience seems to verify that.
Most people are more than happy to go out and figure out tricky beta outside but want their indoor routes to be a bit more classic. They don't want to be mislead into the wrong moves by dummy holds and other "ha! tricked ya" bullshit. You were, presumably, hired to put up routes for other people, not yourself. While your setting may be interesting to you, other people may just not appreciate it.
Save most of your tricks for boulder problems, they're usually more well received there.
(This post was edited by shockabuku on Sep 8, 2008, 2:58 AM)
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AlexCV
Sep 10, 2008, 1:33 PM
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ax wrote: Yes it does make it harder. In addition to rating a routes difficulty by the strength required to climb it, you must also rate it by the technique required to climb it. Technique includes the ability to decipher cryptic sequences. For example... you will rarely if ever find challenging cross through moves on 5.9s and less. You usually don't see high high steps, required backsteps, or bump moves till you get into the hard 5.10s and 11s... etc.
What gym do you climb at? Sounds like they rate really soft.
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j_ung
Sep 10, 2008, 2:21 PM
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jermanimal wrote: I am new to setting and put up my second bolts and bucket route (vs tape on existing holds route) two days ago. Last night was the first time people "got on it" and gave me feedback. I was setting for myself, I wanted a route that incorporated stuff I liked and mixed in some tricks, natural holds (gym has entreprise fiberglass wall) and some dummy hands. Also playing with forced movements into those location. I thought it was a 5.10b maybe. I sent it first go, after I put in the last hold. Now everyone said it was really tough and lead route setter said it was a 5.11a. So my question is, if you set a mild 5.10 if it is done right and don't skip holds, it is clearly a mild 5.10, but if you mix in a bunch of "tricks" into the route does that make it harder? On one hand it makes the route more analytical for the 5.10 climber and challenging still for the 5.12 climber. You wouldn't call a 5.6 a 5.11 if you skipped 3/4th of the holds. Thoughts?
I don't know for sure, but it sounds like you made a fairly common new-route-setter error. You set moves you felt were 5.10, but didn't take into account the cumulative effect of all those moves. My second guess is that your tricks turned out to be contrived nightmares that no normal climber would consider or find fun. (No offense meant!) When you're just starting out, I think the best thing to do is set logical moves that flow together, eschewing "tricks" entirely. Climbers of various styles and builds will inevitably add their own spice to your sequences, anyway.
Build your setting foundation before you get all tricky, or risk building a rep as a crappy setter and ending your career in shame. 
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mturner
Sep 10, 2008, 2:59 PM
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Chris is notorious for dynamic, comp-like, exciting and showy moves. Your average gym should have a mix of those and technical problems/routes. Know your audience
(This post was edited by mturner on Sep 10, 2008, 3:01 PM)
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jermanimal
Sep 10, 2008, 3:39 PM
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j_ung wrote: I don't know for sure, but it sounds like you made a fairly common new-route-setter error. You set moves you felt were 5.10, but didn't take into account the cumulative effect of all those moves. My second guess is that your tricks turned out to be contrived nightmares that no normal climber would consider or find fun. (No offense meant!) When you're just starting out, I think the best thing to do is set logical moves that flow together, eschewing "tricks" entirely. Climbers of various styles and builds will inevitably add their own spice to your sequences, anyway. Build your setting foundation before you get all tricky, or risk building a rep as a crappy setter and ending your career in shame.
certainly there is room for new-setter error, but I didn't really make a gimmicky route. It is a fun flow-y route once you figure out the moves; scruchy crux a few moves in and then a series of laybacks with no feet 2/3 up.
The tricks were pretty standard at our gym, use a big sloper used so it is only a foot or using the "naturals". I think there is a difference between a gimmick and a trick.
There is no rest, but I am really against having much of a rest on a 35 ft wall...come on.
I will heed your advise though...I am not going to take any more "make a hard one" setting jobs for a while, the 5.8-5.9 are harder because they need to be fun for everyone, not just the regulars that want a project.
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j_ung
Sep 10, 2008, 3:42 PM
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jermanimal wrote: j_ung wrote: I don't know for sure, but it sounds like you made a fairly common new-route-setter error. You set moves you felt were 5.10, but didn't take into account the cumulative effect of all those moves. My second guess is that your tricks turned out to be contrived nightmares that no normal climber would consider or find fun. (No offense meant!) When you're just starting out, I think the best thing to do is set logical moves that flow together, eschewing "tricks" entirely. Climbers of various styles and builds will inevitably add their own spice to your sequences, anyway. Build your setting foundation before you get all tricky, or risk building a rep as a crappy setter and ending your career in shame. certainly there is room for new-setter error, but I didn't really make a gimmicky route. It is a fun flow-y route once you figure out the moves; scruchy crux a few moves in and then a series of laybacks with no feet 2/3 up. The tricks were pretty standard at our gym, use a big sloper used so it is only a foot or using the "naturals". I think there is a difference between a gimmick and a trick. There is no rest, but I am really against having much of a rest on a 35 ft wall...come on. I will heed your advise though...I am not going to take any more "make a hard one" setting jobs for a while, the 5.8-5.9 are harder because they need to be fun for everyone, not just the regulars that want a project.
Go back to my first guess, then. You might have missed the cumulative affect of your moves.
(This post was edited by j_ung on Sep 10, 2008, 3:44 PM)
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clamber
Sep 11, 2008, 5:28 AM
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This is strangely coincidental because there's a new guy at the gym where I climb who's going through the same process. He's set a few routes and always eagerly asks for feedback. Recently, he was wanting set route in the 5.8 range. He finished it while I was there, then climbed it and said it felt like a hard 5.9. It's very juggy but has a couple of long reaches. To illustrate an interesting point, I'll mention that he's probably around 5'9" and has sent several 5.11's on the wall.
Since several of us who climb there regularly were present, we all decided to give it a go and a grade. The first guy is about 6'1" and routinely sends 5.11's - he says it feels like a 5.6 but with the reaches probably a 5.7. The second guy is about 6' and regularly sends 5.10's - he gives it a 5.7. Then I climb it. I'm 6'5" and regularly send the 5.11's on the wall - it felt just as difficult as the other 5.6 on the wall barring the two long reaches, so I give it a 7.
And the setters pride is hurt so. Well, no, he was very receptive about it. And in the end the route got a 5.7 grade. And I say this because in hind site I think we made an error. If a 5'2" someone gets on it, they're going to either have to do a very powerful lock off or a dyno to make one or two of the moves...not exactly 5.7 moves(to my knowledge). But, there is no rule that says you cant change the grade.
It's also interesting how this scenario was a reciprocal of the one you described: the subsequent climbers down graded from the grade given by the setter. But we're all TALLER than he is! Its quite obvious that a route needs to be climbed by variously sized climbers before a grade gets slapped on it. But then again, this is gym climbing we're talking about so grades, I believe, are merely a rough estimate of difficulty. The same could probably be said for routes outdoors.
I personally love it when I have to figure out a trick to make a move. However, as I said, I'm 6'5" and the primary route setter at the gym is 5'7"....so I usually assume I'm going to have to use different beta than what he intended. But I think thats the beauty of it, and to me one of the most fun aspects of climbing.
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shockabuku
Sep 11, 2008, 7:41 AM
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jermanimal wrote: a series of laybacks with no feet
Huh?
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sungam
Sep 11, 2008, 11:52 AM
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shockabuku wrote: jermanimal wrote: a series of laybacks with no feet Huh?
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mturner
Sep 11, 2008, 2:44 PM
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One man's tricky fun is another man's awkward no fun
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shockabuku
Sep 11, 2008, 5:49 PM
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sungam wrote: shockabuku wrote: jermanimal wrote: a series of laybacks with no feet Huh? Smearing and jugs sideyways, right?
Smearing is feet. To me "no feet" means campus. But okay if that's what he meant.
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sungam
Sep 11, 2008, 5:57 PM
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shockabuku wrote: sungam wrote: shockabuku wrote: jermanimal wrote: a series of laybacks with no feet Huh? Smearing and jugs sideyways, right? Smearing is feet. To me "no feet" means campus. But okay if that's what he meant.
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