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sgreer
Sep 19, 2008, 3:17 PM
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Anyone ever use drop-in anchors when bolting? I have a bunch of these in 3/8" and 1/2" SS. I'm planning on using them. Advice? Pros and Cons?
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sgreer
Sep 19, 2008, 3:30 PM
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I have the expensive stainless steel ones not the lead ones. The 3/8" have a pull out force of 4100 lbs and the 1/2" have a pull out force of 6000 lbs. I have stainless bolts and hangers to go with them as well.
here is what I have.
http://www.confast.com/products/drop-in-anchor.aspx
(This post was edited by sgreer on Sep 19, 2008, 3:32 PM)
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majid_sabet
Sep 19, 2008, 3:31 PM
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if public is going to use those bolts, make sure you set them up correctly .
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sgreer
Sep 19, 2008, 3:35 PM
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that's a given dude.
(This post was edited by sgreer on Sep 19, 2008, 4:45 PM)
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dingus
Sep 19, 2008, 3:37 PM
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sgreer wrote: I have the expensive stainless steel ones not the lead ones. The 3/8" have a pull out force of 4100 lbs and the 1/2" have a pull out force of 6000 lbs. I have stainless bolts and hangers to go with them as well. here is what I have. http://www.confast.com/products/drop-in-anchor.aspx
That's fairly strong pullout rating. They don't show hard vs. soft concrete pullouts like a lot of other spec sheets I see. I'm guessing those are hard concrete numbers, eqiuivalent to granite.
The shear strength however, isn't shown. I wonder why that is.... they reference shear in the discussion but don't state the strength.
Good luck with your decision.
DMT
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sgreer
Sep 19, 2008, 3:41 PM
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I'm guessing the shear is dependent on the bolt you pair with the insert. The only con I see is the 1/2" hole you have to drill for the 3/8" insert and the 5/8" for the 1/2".
Oh, I'm going to put these in a super hard blank granite face. Really high quality rock.
(This post was edited by sgreer on Sep 19, 2008, 3:45 PM)
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dingus
Sep 19, 2008, 3:44 PM
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sgreer wrote: I'm guessing the shear is dependent on the bolt you pair with the insert. The only con I see is the 1/2" hole you have to drill for the 3/8" insert. and the 5/8" for the 1/2".
Well for hand drilling it would break your back ultimately.
The sleeve is not removable (cons). Future rebolting will require glueing shut the old hole and drilling a new one. I don't see that as a huge liability but some folk do.
Cheers
DMT
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sgreer
Sep 19, 2008, 3:53 PM
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Hand drill? are you kidding me? This wall isn't in the valley so we're cool with the motors.
My buddy and long time Yosemite climber (since the 70's) has a DeWalt hammer drill that we'll use. I'm supplying the bolts and beer and he's supplying the transportation and drill. It is going to be a 6 pitch aid/free climb. The first pitch is a shear bolted ladder up featureless granite and the rest is clean free climbing.
(This post was edited by sgreer on Sep 19, 2008, 3:55 PM)
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dingus
Sep 19, 2008, 3:56 PM
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Cool. Where at?
DMT
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sgreer
Sep 19, 2008, 4:05 PM
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I'll let you know by PM when it's complete. I'll give you a topo as well.
Thanks.
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sgreer
Sep 19, 2008, 4:18 PM
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check your email.
Is it dingus@rockclimbing.com? I sent a pic.
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0x2102
Sep 19, 2008, 4:30 PM
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sgreer wrote: It is going to be a 6 pitch aid/free climb. The first pitch is a shear bolted ladder up featureless granite and the rest is clean free climbing.
Assuming the drop-ins are for the bolt ladder....why not keep it sporty and drill bat hooks instead, and place a real bolt every few feet for pro? I mean really, who wouldn't enjoy some nice hooking between bomber anchors, as opposed to just yarding on bolts?
Besides, if you're going at it with a hammer drill it barely takes a second to tap in a 1/4" hook placement, as opposed to fooling around with those drop-ins, and requires much less hardware.
Less work, less gear, more spice = good.
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sgreer
Sep 19, 2008, 4:35 PM
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Sounds good. I think we'll do that.
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shockabuku
Sep 19, 2008, 5:31 PM
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dingus wrote: sgreer wrote: I'm guessing the shear is dependent on the bolt you pair with the insert. The only con I see is the 1/2" hole you have to drill for the 3/8" insert. and the 5/8" for the 1/2". Well for hand drilling it would break your back ultimately. The sleeve is not removable (cons). Future rebolting will require glueing shut the old hole and drilling a new one. I don't see that as a huge liability but some folk do. Cheers DMT
Why not drill out the sleeve (for rebolting)?
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dingus
Sep 19, 2008, 5:34 PM
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I dunno - can you 'drill out' a stainless steel sleeve? I have no idea personally. Never tried. Never used drop in anchors for anything, myself.
DMT
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majid_sabet
Sep 19, 2008, 5:52 PM
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dingus wrote: I dunno - can you 'drill out' a stainless steel sleeve? I have no idea personally. Never tried. Never used drop in anchors for anything, myself. DMT
its hard to drill SS sleeve. Also if the bit becomes stuck in the sleeve and start spinning, it could damage the hole.
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crotch
Sep 19, 2008, 6:43 PM
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sgreer
Sep 19, 2008, 6:48 PM
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So are you sujesting button heads with no hangers? Kinda, like the old school ladders that you have cinch a wire onto.
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dingus
Sep 19, 2008, 7:14 PM
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Does this area have a fairly bold tradition? Some history upon which you can inform your strategy?
I'm guessing you and your partner are pretty well versed with the history of your area. Use that as your guide?
One other thing to consider: What if the climbing above the blank face turns out to be 'blah?'
Cheers and good luck
DMT
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0x2102
Sep 19, 2008, 7:41 PM
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crotch wrote: I think that power-drilling bathook holes is pretty contrived,
Agreed. Hand drill the bathooks and power drill the bolts.
Or maybe find another way to access the wall above....?
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sgreer
Sep 19, 2008, 8:13 PM
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The line will go for sure nicely. All the routes on the dome are trad and ours will be good place for first time aiders to get thier wits about them. We are going to set some solid 1/2" bolts at the top of the aid pitch where people can practice setting up their portaledges and the such. It will be well appreciated and recieved. My buddy knows the FA of all the established lines. They are both old-timer fun hogs from the area. Oh, and we are going to paint everything to match the wall.
(This post was edited by sgreer on Sep 19, 2008, 11:03 PM)
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climbbaja
Sep 19, 2008, 10:24 PM
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sgreer,
Drop-in anchors require a precise hole depth. The same is not true of wedge anchors and sleeve anchors.
The embedment depth is shallow (typical flush mounting), compared to other types of bolts.
The length of the threaded bolt and length of thread engagement is critical. The installer should be highly skilled with drop-ins, otherwise placement can be botched.
For those reasons, I do not consider them a desireable or acceptable bolt for climbing purposes.
My $.02 is to sell them on craigslist to a construction worker. Purchase Hilti "Kwik Bolt" or ITW Ramset-Redhead "Trubolt" wedge anchors.
Trubolts in 304 SS in 3/8" x 2-3/4" are $0.86 each, 3/8" x 3-3/4" @ $.096 each through www.toolup.com.
I just purchased 100 of each size. Delivered to my doorstep, the price averaged $0.97 each.
The only brands that I trust in the construction industry are ITW Ramset-Redhead, Hilti, and Powers. There are climbing-specific wedge anchors by Fixe, Raumer, and Petzl, but with a 200%+ price jump. DO NOT purchase out of unlabeled boxes at the hardware store. That is usually offshore junk, perhaps suitable for mounting a bookshelf.
Installation of wedge anchors is simple. Just be careful not to overtorque. Specs for the SS 3/8" should be around 20-22 lbs. ft. Wedge anchors are "self energizing" in their holding power. Once the collar grabs the cone during intial torque, the harder you pull, the deeper/stronger it will seat.
Drill the hole 1/4" deeper that the bolt will reach.
The holes should be cleaned by blowing and brushing, repeat, then a final blow.
To prevent removal/theft of hangers, I like to weld a tiny bead on the outermost threads. Install the hanger, flat washer, and nut on the bolt. A 1 to 2 second burst of a MIG welder and auto-darkening hood makes that easy. Grind smooth - an aluminum oxide disc on a body grinder works well. A less aesthetic method to prevent removal, is to bash the outer threads with the hammer after installation.
Wedge anchors do have the disadvantage of being non-removeable. They would not be the bolt of choice where replacement is necessary in a few years, such as a bolt that is repeatedly subjected to falls. Wedge anchors are only for hard rock such as granite, solid basalt, quartzite, etc.
A preferred bolt for replacement and medium-soft rock is a sleeve anchor, such as, Powers "Power-Bolt" (aka: "5-piece"). The SS Power-Bolt is very expensive, probably 500% or more vs. the Trubolt.
For your purposes, the "Trubolts" or Hilti "Kwik Bolts" are a cost effective and reliable alternative to drop-ins.
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sgreer
Sep 19, 2008, 11:17 PM
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Thanks for the advice. I'll consider every bit of it.
In reply to: Drop-in anchors require a precise hole depth.
The drill has a depth gauge you can preset (a simple rod device). So that shouldn't be a problem. I also have a setting tool for the drop-in anchor.
I do have a box of 50 redheads that are 3/8" x 3" long that I am going to lug along as well.
Thanks again baja.
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In all seriousness though, I suppose I'll be the guy doing the rebolting when the time comes. 
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