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patmay81
Oct 3, 2008, 6:11 PM
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sungam wrote: Read some of Aceto's threads about hearing the rock, and letting it guide you across it's faces. It won't let you fall, and it will grip tight the bolts if you should slip by your own doing.
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petsfed
Oct 3, 2008, 6:33 PM
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Check out the Rock Warrior's Way by Arno Ilgner. It might work for you, it might not, but there's some really good advice about dealing with fear, which is why you've got a crappy lead head.
Its a 3-step process:
1) Be afraid. Fear is normal, its your minds way of reminding you to pay attention. When you get afraid, its time to go to the next step.
2) Assess the situation and form a plan. Would the fall be safe? Are you willing to take that fall?
3) Commit to your plan. Even if your plan is to go down, you MUST stick to it. Constantly second guessing yourself will allow fear to take control.
The other key is to just lead more. Every time you climb, lead something. Get used to getting above the bolt (or your gear if that's what's protecting you).
Eventually, your lead ability will start to reach parity with your toprope ability. In fact, you'll start doing moves on lead that you'd previously only consider on toprope. Once you stop climbing more conservatively on lead than on toprope, you'll have licked the problem.
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henryflaig
Oct 7, 2008, 3:10 AM
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try to burn some herbs before to clear that lead head
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asiaclimber
Oct 7, 2008, 4:17 AM
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Just stop top roping all together for a while. Thats what helped me. That and fall practice. get up a few bolts on something with a clean fall and whip on purpose. This helped me tremendously. At this point I hate being on top rope for several reasons, number one reason being that the rope is in my way.
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bigfatrock
Oct 7, 2008, 7:09 PM
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What worked for me was losing weight and getting stronger. It's amazing how big of a difference it makes when you have a better strength-to-weight ratio. I was top roping up to 10d and recently onsighted my first .10b and it was my first day leading .10's. The whole thing boosted my confidence level.
Now if you are in good shape and already climbing hard that could be another story. If that is the case you need to find out what is causing the lack of confidence. For me I lack it when trad climbing because I haven't fallen on gear yet. But once I do a few times I imagine my confidence level will go up.
Maybe taking a few practice falls will help. You may want to back it up with a top rope though for safe measure. Good luck man.
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sugdenj82
Oct 7, 2008, 8:54 PM
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I notice on your profile you lead 5.8 trad. Focus on trad for a while and going back to sport climbing might be a bit easier. At least in my world, I plateaued in sport leading at 11b about three years ago and have been focusing primarily on trad leading up to 11b, now 11d on sport doesn't seem so bad. Basically trad, well at least rad trad, will get you stronger and clear your head a bunch especially when there's small runouts between bolts. Also depends on what kinds of trad lines you choose to climb. That's my 2 cents.
John
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vertical1
Oct 14, 2008, 2:48 AM
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For the longest time I had been stuck around 11a sport, My hardest toprope is 12b, but I have led several 12a's.
(This post was edited by vertical1 on Oct 14, 2008, 2:49 AM)
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SendMasterJack
Oct 24, 2008, 8:53 PM
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ive always thought climbing was a pretty stupid and dangerous thing to do, and i cant explain why i keep doing it. That being said, in my experience, in order to feel more comfortable doing things your body might deem "dangerous" you have to go against your human instinct of backing out and being a bitch and put everything on the line to take it to the next level! WOO! Luckily we have these things called bolts and cams, and those little stopper things, so if you fall you might get fucked up real bad, but chances are you're not going to die. Climbing to me has always been about reaching for the hold you can't quite reach, or confronting your fear of falling or whatever. it's an inexplicable phenomena of the human psyche. so if you're a really climber you must be crazy as fuck so why not do some crazy ass shit!
thank you..
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rockprodigy
Oct 25, 2008, 3:08 AM
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I don't have the patience to read all the other posts. so apologies if this is a repeat....
Ya'll shouldn't be toproping so much. So-called "advanced" climbers NEVER toprope. Fears of sport lead climbing are completely irrational. Start leading all the time and take falls routinely. You should be taking at least 5 lead falls every time you go climbing if you're trying hard routes.
Take a Saturday and visit a "hardman" crag in-season when people are climbing there (Rifle, VRG, Maple, Motherlode, Smith, others?) You will see everyday people taking everyday falls like it's no big deal...which it is.
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rtwilli4
Oct 26, 2008, 2:40 AM
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i didnt really read the replies but I like answering this question. stop tRing. find climbs that are below or at your limit for leading and only climb them. Hell... do laps on 5.8's if that's what it takes, but forget trying to TR stuff. It makes you sloppy and it gives you a sense of safety that is probably bad for your head. once you get your head straight, then you can TR stuff that's over your head, try to work out the moves, then lead it. I assume that's why you would TR in the first place. Unless your are multi-pitching or learning about gear placement, that's the only other reason I see to TR stuff.
i always have a hard time climbing (leading) at my limit when I get to a new place. I always have to spend a day or two leading a few number grades below my limit, just to get used to the rock. It's not something to be embarrassed about... it's just what you have to do to have fun. When you understand how your mind and body work, you will have much more fun and when you are having fun you will climb better.
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stonefox
Oct 26, 2008, 3:22 PM
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There was a day, I had finished a route and asked my belayer to dirt me. Standing next to my belayer, untying my rope, I looked at him and said, "I want to lead that next time." And he looked at me puzzled - I looked up at the wall and realized I DID just lead that climb, no kidding. Brainwashing works. You can't think about being above your last bolt, what will happen if you blast up to a hold and it's no good or peel off of a high step that was just a little too high. But why envision any of those things when just the opposite can happen. Don't cloud you mind with that stuff. Ask yourself what makes you more confident when you stick a move on TR as opposed to being on lead? You have the same ability climbing TR as you do on lead.....it's all in your head. Play some tricks on your mind. You have to trust yourself and your abilities - you should NOT have to think about your belayer at all. Lastly, falling is an active part of climbing, you get used to the capabilities of your rope, your gear etc. You get accustomed to the way a fall feels. I can't say I am ever 100% comfortable in flying through the air but I accept it. Without accepting though, you are hindering your ability, second guessing yourself and talking yourself out of something that might get you thought the hardest part of your climb. If you have good people, good gear and a positive outlook on climbing there is nothing stopping you from getting to that next level. Use a little brainwashing( get your mind to think you are on TR when you are leading), be willing to fall. Seriously, you have to remember, you put yourself there (4 bolts up), you want to be there, you know the circumstances and risks to climbing but don't let it overload your purpose for getting out there and having fun. Keep trying - you'll get there.
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chossmonkey
Oct 26, 2008, 3:35 PM
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USnavy wrote: I see many people mentioned taking practice falls. Well see the thing is I am not new to sport climbing. I have been leading for over four years. I have caught over 500 lead falls (single and multi-pitch, sport and trad) and taken around 80 myself (99% of which were intentional or me just “giving up”). I am knowledgeable in the technical aspect of leading. I know how to position the rope in reference to my legs at any given point, I know when to jump when belaying, I know when to fall back and pull slack in to prevent a ledge fall, I know when to allow a controlled slippage of the rope through my belay device to lower the impact on a piece of pro, I know which way to face the gates on my draws in any given scenario, I know when longer quickdraws or slings are needed on a route (sport or trad) and how to use them, I can accurately calculate an approximate total fall distance to determine where I or my climbing partner would stop if I / she / he took a fall at any given point, I am familiar with the safety advantages and disadvantages of most if not all of the different types of quickdraws on the market, I have a good understanding of the specifications of dynamic ropes and how they relate to lead climbing, I am familiar with the history of the bolts at the creigs I climb at to the extent that I know when they were installed, yet with all that I still find myself top roping many of my 11’s. Some days I am good on lead and I am not really that afraid and other days I don’t want to do anything but top rope.
I'm not reading all that.^^^
Clean the sand out of your mangina and get on the sharp end.
As long as the falls are relatively safe don't ever TR. TRing very easily turns into a crutch
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sungam
Oct 26, 2008, 3:50 PM
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chossmonkey wrote: TRing very easily turns into a crutch
Ditch the TR and you'll prolly soon get used to the lead, but leading and TR will slow that down.
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chossmonkey
Oct 26, 2008, 4:24 PM
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sungam wrote: chossmonkey wrote: TRing very easily turns into a crutch This ^ is a good point. Ditch the TR and you'll prolly soon get used to the lead, but leading and TR will slow that down.
One case study of mine (my lovely and talented wife) would always TR routes before getting on them on lead. Once I started pulling the rope after hanging the draws for her she hated me for a while but then her leading really took off as she got used to it.
It was RAD to see her going back for more after lobbing off, just short of the next bolt her first time up a new project. It can be tough to climb back above the last bolt you just fell onto and risk another big fall. The only way you will ever get the fortitude to do so is to ditch the TR and embrace the chance of falling.
If it is safe, I like to start the day of with a fall on one of my warm ups.
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spikeddem
Oct 26, 2008, 4:27 PM
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chossmonkey wrote: It can be tough to climb back above the last bolt you just fell onto and risk another big fall. .
That's interesting. Almost always I find that once I fall and realize it wasn't half as bad as my mind made it, it is much easier to hop back on and not be worried about the fall.
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sungam
Oct 26, 2008, 4:31 PM
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spikeddem wrote: chossmonkey wrote: It can be tough to climb back above the last bolt you just fell onto and risk another big fall. . That's interesting. Almost always I find that once I fall and realize it wasn't half as bad as my mind made it, it is much easier to hop back on and not be worried about the fall.
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chossmonkey
Oct 26, 2008, 6:48 PM
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sungam wrote: spikeddem wrote: chossmonkey wrote: It can be tough to climb back above the last bolt you just fell onto and risk another big fall. . That's interesting. Almost always I find that once I fall and realize it wasn't half as bad as my mind made it, it is much easier to hop back on and not be worried about the fall. I guess that depends on how the fall felt.
Even if you can convince your mind that the fall is safe it can also be tough to convince your mind that you can do the move you just whipped off of. With a route at or near your limit that can be a very tough sell.
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jt512
Oct 26, 2008, 8:04 PM
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rockprodigy wrote: So-called "advanced" climbers NEVER toprope.
That's not even remotely true. I'd say that it's more like intermediate climbers who never top rope. I know lots of advanced climbers who are completely indifferent about whether they top rope or lead a route.
In reply to: Fears of sport lead climbing are completely irrational.
That's not true either. There are lots of situations in sport climbing in which a call could result in serious injury or death. I've always been shocked about how many good sport climbers are completely oblivious to these dangers.
Jay
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chossmonkey
Oct 26, 2008, 11:47 PM
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jt512 wrote: In reply to: Fears of sport lead climbing are completely irrational. That's not true either. There are lots of situations in sport climbing in which a call could result in serious injury or death. I've always been shocked about how many good sport climbers are completely oblivious to these dangers. Jay
Bad bolt jobs and aging hardware is the short list. Climbing IS dangerous. You can never eliminate all danger completely.
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chossmonkey
Oct 26, 2008, 11:51 PM
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In reply to: pendereki wrote: In reply to: Fears of sport lead climbing are completely irrational. That's not true either. There are lots of situations in sport climbing in which a call could result in serious injury or death. I've always been shocked about how many good sport climbers are completely oblivious to these dangers. Jay Jay is right! This is exactly why I quit carrying my cell phone to the sport crag.  |
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rockprodigy
Oct 28, 2008, 1:56 PM
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I just remembered why I stopped contributing here....
I think it's been long-established that you need to get out more Jay, so no, I'm not at all impressed by all the advanced climbers you know.
Given the "lots of situations in sport climbing" that you mentioned, can you give us some examples where "serious injury or death" occured from a lead fall on a sport route? You're a stats guy...if thousands of these death-defying feats are going on daily, odds are we should have people cratering left and right.
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jt512
Oct 28, 2008, 5:05 PM
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rockprodigy wrote: I just remembered why I stopped contributing here.... I think it's been long-established that you need to get out more Jay...
I don't know how much more that I can get out than every weekend all year-round, so maybe it is the fact that I get out as much as I do, and actually think about what I am doing, that I am aware of some of the risks that other climbers, like you apparently, remain blissfully unaware of.
In reply to: Given the "lots of situations in sport climbing" that you mentioned, can you give us some examples where "serious injury or death" occured from a lead fall on a sport route? ... You're a stats guy...if thousands of these death-defying feats are going on daily, odds are we should have people cratering left and right.
I can name such incidents, including a broken back that nearly resulted in paralysis. But that really isn't the point. The fact is that the risks are there. If a climber wants to take a risk knowingly that's his business. The problem, though, is the common attitude that you seem to be advocating, based on stupidity and ignorance, that sport climbing is automatically safe.
For example, I know of several routes that start off a ledge, where, should the leader fall above the first bolt and his draw come unclipped, he would miss the ledge and fall to the ground, virtually guaranteeing a serious injury, or worse. Yet most sport climbers would take no precaution against this risk, not because they have assessed the situation and have deemed it acceptable, but merely because the danger has never occurred to them. Sure, unclipping of a draw is rare, which is why we aren't carrying bodies out of sport crags on a daily basis, but unclipping is does happen.* Since I am a stats guy, and you've expressed an interest in a statistical analysis, it is this: although the probability of a failure is low, its consequences are extraordinary negative, and hence the expected value is negative.
Again, what I am advocating is increased awareness of where the risks are in sport climbing. It's difficult to understand how anybody such as yourself could actually be opposed to that.
*Just two days ago an incident of a first clip breaking was reported in this thread at supertopo.com. The climber decked and struck his head on a rock, causing, luckily, only a nasty laceration. It could easily have been a life-trheatening skull fracture, as happened to a friend of mine who fell only 15 feet.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Oct 28, 2008, 5:22 PM)
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