When Messner said this he was referring more to aid climbing but it can be applicable to free climbing as well. Basically he was saying that ambitions were not based on skill but on equipment and the length of time available and thus courage could be carried in ones pack. As climbers we play a trivial game and argue about trivial things. Among those is the issue of whether to use bolts or not. To be clear I am not against bolts they have their place on many climbs.

Climbing has several aspects. There's the physical aspect in which one has the physical strength to pull up on holds. The mental aspect in which is the ability to be at height where most of this sport takes place. Another aspect is the technical aspect, rope management, clipping, etc. Some of us focus on some more than others but we all have strengths in certain areas and weaknesses in other. I for example am technically and mentally strong while being fairly weak physically.

Questions of style are generally not easy to answer because of people's difference of opinion but I will make a simple comparison to see whether my logic is as simple to others as it is to me. Not that long ago climbers chipped holds on climbs to bring them down to their level, for a long while in places like France this was accepted. Eventually climbers like Royal Robbins and Jean-Claude Droyer encouraged people to free climb and climb cleanly to not only avoid damaging the rock but to also push climbing standards. These days almost all climbers would be against chipping holds and the reason most would give is that you should not bring a climb down to your physical level because someone might be able to do it in the future. Despite this almost unanimous agreement that one should not bring a climb down to their physical level by chipping, people think that bolting a climb down to their mental ability is perfectly acceptable. People bolt cracks and retro-bolt traditionally protected climbs, or add bolts to climbs that were originally led without the additional bolts.

So I have to ask, if you wouldn't chip a climb to bring it down to your physical level then why would you bolt it to bring it down to your mental level? Now one could say that you could simply skip the bolts which is true, just as you could skip chipped holds. Nevertheless you still have an escape because someone brought the level of the climb down mentally or physically. If you don't feel ready for a climb physically or mentally you don't have to do it. So to reiterate the question why would you bring a climb down to your level mentally or physically?

So I have to ask, if you wouldn't chip a climb to bring it down to your physical level then why would you bolt it to bring it down to your mental level? Now one could say that you could simply skip the bolts which is true, just as you could skip chipped holds. Nevertheless you still have an escape because someone brought the level of the climb down mentally or physically. If you don't feel ready for a climb physically or mentally you don't have to do it. So to reiterate the question why would you bring a climb down to your level mentally or physically?

It seems at times that a portion of the climbing population simply does not respect the mental component of the game as much as the physical.

the abortion of ethics illistrated by the thread author unatributed use of a noted alpinists prose for the title of this thread speaks quite ironically to the authors supposed zeal for prestine moral ground.

When Messner said this

in reference to peaks
id say the childs use is the predicate

in reference to peaks
id say the childs use is the predicate

So I have to ask, if you wouldn't chip a climb to bring it down to your physical level then why would you bolt it to bring it down to your mental level? Now one could say that you could simply skip the bolts which is true, just as you could skip chipped holds. Nevertheless you still have an escape because someone brought the level of the climb down mentally or physically. If you don't feel ready for a climb physically or mentally you don't have to do it. So to reiterate the question why would you bring a climb down to your level mentally or physically?

Some of the boldest climbers and most intelligent folks I know are sport climbers.

What more people do not respect is 150 runnouts on overhanging 5.12 choss. Or certainly not the sort of respect that will prompt them to jump on such a route.

DMT

Let me be the first (but probably not last) one to chime in and say "Why do you use shoes and gear"? The purest form is free solo, nekkid. Round and round we go.....

I like to think the FA (or FA's) of a route are the artists.
The "songwriters" if you will, of that route (song). Other "artists" will sometimes redo a "song" and they may do it with stylistic difference. But the integrity of the original "song" needs to be retained. Don't change the "melody" or the "chord structure" and don't change the "lyrics".

I'm not saying that folks should be free to retrobolt or chip holds (well, I am kind of saying that, just not advocating it); I'm not really for that (though I do admit that I do lean toward the side of decreasing environmental impact and increasing safety, but I'm not stoutly in favor of those all of the time). I'm just saying that if we hold fast to keeping things the same then we'll eventually have used up any opportunity to change.

WARNING!! Slippery slope ^^here^^.

The over all sport should change and that can and will be reflected in the character of new route development but established climbs are off limits. One of two acception to that is if alterations to the means of protection are made by, or with permission from, the FAist. The only other time I feel its a good idea is if the FAist is not available and the local community is in overall agreement on the changes. Chipping should never happen.

Huh? Perhaps the word "mental" was a poor choice as intelligence has little to do with ones ability to manage doubt and fear and wasn't what I was talking about. Nor do I think that bolts and bold climbing or sport climbers and bold climbing are mutually exclusive.

I wasn't even so much talking about a respect, or lack there of, for a certain style of climbing but more for the people who enjoy climbs that are (for a lack of better phrasing) "heady" and pose as much of a psychological challenge as a physical one. I was talking to the "why not bolt it so everyone can enjoy the climb" crowd. The people who don't understand or respect the fact that for some people the route is much more fun and interesting with out the bolts.

I think there is enough rock for everyone to climb in the style they enjoy and one style should not be sacrificed for the sake of the other.

Some of the boldest climbers and most intelligent folks I know are sport climbers.

What more people do not respect is 150 runnouts on overhanging 5.12 choss. Or certainly not the sort of respect that will prompt them to jump on such a route.

DMT