Forums: Climbing Information: General:
The Murder of the Impossible
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for General

Premier Sponsor:

 
First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All


jmeizis


Oct 8, 2008, 11:08 PM
Post #1 of 57 (3366 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 25, 2006
Posts: 635

The Murder of the Impossible
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

When Messner said this he was referring more to aid climbing but it can be applicable to free climbing as well. Basically he was saying that ambitions were not based on skill but on equipment and the length of time available and thus courage could be carried in ones pack. As climbers we play a trivial game and argue about trivial things. Among those is the issue of whether to use bolts or not. To be clear I am not against bolts they have their place on many climbs.

Climbing has several aspects. There's the physical aspect in which one has the physical strength to pull up on holds. The mental aspect in which is the ability to be at height where most of this sport takes place. Another aspect is the technical aspect, rope management, clipping, etc. Some of us focus on some more than others but we all have strengths in certain areas and weaknesses in other. I for example am technically and mentally strong while being fairly weak physically.

Questions of style are generally not easy to answer because of people's difference of opinion but I will make a simple comparison to see whether my logic is as simple to others as it is to me. Not that long ago climbers chipped holds on climbs to bring them down to their level, for a long while in places like France this was accepted. Eventually climbers like Royal Robbins and Jean-Claude Droyer encouraged people to free climb and climb cleanly to not only avoid damaging the rock but to also push climbing standards. These days almost all climbers would be against chipping holds and the reason most would give is that you should not bring a climb down to your physical level because someone might be able to do it in the future. Despite this almost unanimous agreement that one should not bring a climb down to their physical level by chipping, people think that bolting a climb down to their mental ability is perfectly acceptable. People bolt cracks and retro-bolt traditionally protected climbs, or add bolts to climbs that were originally led without the additional bolts.

So I have to ask, if you wouldn't chip a climb to bring it down to your physical level then why would you bolt it to bring it down to your mental level? Now one could say that you could simply skip the bolts which is true, just as you could skip chipped holds. Nevertheless you still have an escape because someone brought the level of the climb down mentally or physically. If you don't feel ready for a climb physically or mentally you don't have to do it. So to reiterate the question why would you bring a climb down to your level mentally or physically?


rat-baby


Oct 9, 2008, 3:04 AM
Post #2 of 57 (3311 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 17, 2002
Posts: 103

Re: [jmeizis] The Murder of the Impossible [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Bolts next to a crack or a retro-bolt of an existing route with out the consent of the F.A. would be chopped in an area with any kind of ethic. So no, people do not think that bolting a climb down to their mental ability is perfectly acceptable.


notapplicable


Oct 9, 2008, 5:10 AM
Post #3 of 57 (3266 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771

Re: [jmeizis] The Murder of the Impossible [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jmeizis wrote:
When Messner said this he was referring more to aid climbing but it can be applicable to free climbing as well. Basically he was saying that ambitions were not based on skill but on equipment and the length of time available and thus courage could be carried in ones pack. As climbers we play a trivial game and argue about trivial things. Among those is the issue of whether to use bolts or not. To be clear I am not against bolts they have their place on many climbs.

Climbing has several aspects. There's the physical aspect in which one has the physical strength to pull up on holds. The mental aspect in which is the ability to be at height where most of this sport takes place. Another aspect is the technical aspect, rope management, clipping, etc. Some of us focus on some more than others but we all have strengths in certain areas and weaknesses in other. I for example am technically and mentally strong while being fairly weak physically.

Questions of style are generally not easy to answer because of people's difference of opinion but I will make a simple comparison to see whether my logic is as simple to others as it is to me. Not that long ago climbers chipped holds on climbs to bring them down to their level, for a long while in places like France this was accepted. Eventually climbers like Royal Robbins and Jean-Claude Droyer encouraged people to free climb and climb cleanly to not only avoid damaging the rock but to also push climbing standards. These days almost all climbers would be against chipping holds and the reason most would give is that you should not bring a climb down to your physical level because someone might be able to do it in the future. Despite this almost unanimous agreement that one should not bring a climb down to their physical level by chipping, people think that bolting a climb down to their mental ability is perfectly acceptable. People bolt cracks and retro-bolt traditionally protected climbs, or add bolts to climbs that were originally led without the additional bolts.

So I have to ask, if you wouldn't chip a climb to bring it down to your physical level then why would you bolt it to bring it down to your mental level? Now one could say that you could simply skip the bolts which is true, just as you could skip chipped holds. Nevertheless you still have an escape because someone brought the level of the climb down mentally or physically. If you don't feel ready for a climb physically or mentally you don't have to do it. So to reiterate the question why would you bring a climb down to your level mentally or physically?

Nicely phrased.

It seems at times that a portion of the climbing population simply does not respect the mental component of the game as much as the physical. Climbing that requires a steady hand and a quiet mind is not understood or considered to be as valid a pursuit as that of the purely physical. Dismissed as an unfortunate downside or byproduct of climbing, the fear is to be negated when possible and not embraced as its own form of challenge to ones constitution.

Thats not to say every route needs to be a horror show, fuck that, I like to clip bolts with abandon as much as the next guy. What is important, is preserving routes that challenge the mind and understanding that for some, those routes are both a source of enjoyment and an end in and of themselves.


dingus


Oct 9, 2008, 5:30 AM
Post #4 of 57 (3246 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398

Re: [jmeizis] The Murder of the Impossible [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jmeizis wrote:
So I have to ask, if you wouldn't chip a climb to bring it down to your physical level then why would you bolt it to bring it down to your mental level? Now one could say that you could simply skip the bolts which is true, just as you could skip chipped holds. Nevertheless you still have an escape because someone brought the level of the climb down mentally or physically. If you don't feel ready for a climb physically or mentally you don't have to do it. So to reiterate the question why would you bring a climb down to your level mentally or physically?

Your premise is wrong. Many if not most hard sport routes are chipped.

In terms of why I would do one and not the other? Me and my mates have deemed one acceptable in certain situations, but not the other.

I'm not one of those desperate souls that has to have consistency in all thought and principle.

The entire 'bring it down to my level' really has no personal meaning for me. I am far more atuned to norms and practices of the small community of climbers with which I hang.

They are my friends, mentors and heros. I mean that. I would not want to disappoint them nor do something to cayse them to lose access.

I did it all for the nookie. So you can take that cookie...

Cheers!
DMT


dingus


Oct 9, 2008, 5:33 AM
Post #5 of 57 (3241 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398

Re: [notapplicable] The Murder of the Impossible [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

notapplicable wrote:
It seems at times that a portion of the climbing population simply does not respect the mental component of the game as much as the physical.

Some of the boldest climbers and most intelligent folks I know are sport climbers.

What more people do not respect is 150 runnouts on overhanging 5.12 choss. Or certainly not the sort of respect that will prompt them to jump on such a route.

DMT


dingus


Oct 9, 2008, 5:35 AM
Post #6 of 57 (3232 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398

Re: [dingus] The Murder of the Impossible [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

A counter question if I may...

if a bolt is unacceptable because it sullies a cliff and Murders the Unlikely?

WHY is it acceptable to cover a whole patch of motherearth with bolts and concrete and rebar and fiberglass and fake rock holds - for the convenience of gym climbers/ Talk about the murder of the impossible!

DMT


bender


Oct 9, 2008, 5:37 AM
Post #7 of 57 (3226 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 23, 2002
Posts: 188

Re: [notapplicable] The Murder of the Impossible [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

  
the abortion of ethics illistrated by the thread author unatributed use of a noted alpinists prose for the title of this thread speaks quite ironically to the authors supposed zeal for prestine moral ground.


(This post was edited by bender on Oct 9, 2008, 5:39 AM)


Partner wormly81


Oct 9, 2008, 5:56 AM
Post #8 of 57 (3199 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 9, 2004
Posts: 280

Re: [bender] The Murder of the Impossible [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

bender wrote:

the abortion of ethics illistrated by the thread author unatributed use of a noted alpinists prose for the title of this thread speaks quite ironically to the authors supposed zeal for prestine moral ground.

The first sentence of the authors post wrote:
When Messner said this


(This post was edited by wormly81 on Oct 9, 2008, 5:57 AM)


bender


Oct 9, 2008, 7:03 AM
Post #9 of 57 (3150 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 23, 2002
Posts: 188

Re: [wormly81] The Murder of the Impossible [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

in reference to peaks
id say the childs use is the predicate


IsayAutumn


Oct 9, 2008, 7:10 AM
Post #10 of 57 (3143 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 8, 2008
Posts: 355

Re: [jmeizis] The Murder of the Impossible [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Since this is already my second post on rc.com, I feel more than qualified to interject myself into a controversial topic. Unsure With that disclaimer, I would just like to say that I agree with the OP. I do think that bolts have their place, especially if they were installed/used by the FA party. And I have all the respect in the world for sport climbers. I myself love to sport climb. But, bolting easily protected climbs or retrobolting difficult climbs seems selfish to me.

Just because someone loves to climb does not mean that the same person should be able to jump on every climb and be safe and successful. Climbing skills -- technical, physical, and mental -- need to be built up before attempting certain routes. For me, that is part of the fun and evolution of climbing. And climbing is more than just a sport for me. I enjoy the adventurous aspect of it, as I'm sure most of you do. Bolting routes that can be protected with gear just so more climbers can send a route, in my very humble opinion, should be discouraged.

There are plenty of climbs out there for climbers of every skill level. Personally, I will do my best to stay on those routes that I feel I can handle. I would never do anything to modify a route that is otherwise out of my mental ability just so I can add it to my tick list. I would be disappointed if others did not show routes in my favorite places a similar respect, so to speak.


dingus


Oct 9, 2008, 7:15 AM
Post #11 of 57 (3135 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398

Re: [bender] The Murder of the Impossible [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

bender wrote:
in reference to peaks
id say the childs use is the predicate

You couldn't be more cryptic if you tried.

DMT


knieveltech


Oct 9, 2008, 7:28 AM
Post #12 of 57 (3113 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 1, 2006
Posts: 1431

Re: [bender] The Murder of the Impossible [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

bender wrote:
in reference to peaks
id say the childs use is the predicate

Looks like someone's running a dissociated press algorithm. Tsk tsk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociated_press


Gmburns2000


Oct 9, 2008, 7:52 AM
Post #13 of 57 (3080 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15253

Re: [jmeizis] The Murder of the Impossible [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jmeizis wrote:

So I have to ask, if you wouldn't chip a climb to bring it down to your physical level then why would you bolt it to bring it down to your mental level? Now one could say that you could simply skip the bolts which is true, just as you could skip chipped holds. Nevertheless you still have an escape because someone brought the level of the climb down mentally or physically. If you don't feel ready for a climb physically or mentally you don't have to do it. So to reiterate the question why would you bring a climb down to your level mentally or physically?

OK, I know I'm going to hear about this in one fashion or another, but just to play a very, very, small and weak devil's advocate - it is likely easier to skip the bolt than it is the chipped hold. In other words, skipping the bolt won't change the grade, but skipping the hold probably would, particularly if the hold was chipped because there are no other reasonable holds around it to use (therefore requiring the hold be chipped, so that something can, in fact be used).

I'm not advocating either, but since routes are primarily graded on a physical basis, we can't really have the discussion about the mental challenge of the climb if the climb is over bolted. Because of this, if it is over bolted, then the discussion is almost always surrounded by the environmental or asthetic arguments. One can skip the bolt and make the climb more mentally challenging without changing the grade. One can probably not skip the hold to make it more mentally challenging without changing the grade. Think soloing a crack. The soloist is certainly changing the mental aspect despite the amount of gear available, but I doubt he's skipping holds to make it more mentally challenging.


edited to add the very last clause.


(This post was edited by Gmburns2000 on Oct 9, 2008, 7:53 AM)


Darkforrest


Oct 9, 2008, 9:15 AM
Post #14 of 57 (3000 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 27, 2007
Posts: 88

Re: [Gmburns2000] The Murder of the Impossible [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In my opinion, Routes are bolted not to "bring the level down" but so more people can experience the route.
I do not believe all routes should be bolted. But there is a place for Sport areas.
Retro Bolting without FA permission does not sit well with me.


notapplicable


Oct 9, 2008, 10:14 AM
Post #15 of 57 (2947 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771

Re: [dingus] The Murder of the Impossible [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

dingus wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
It seems at times that a portion of the climbing population simply does not respect the mental component of the game as much as the physical.

Some of the boldest climbers and most intelligent folks I know are sport climbers.

What more people do not respect is 150 runnouts on overhanging 5.12 choss. Or certainly not the sort of respect that will prompt them to jump on such a route.

DMT


Huh? Perhaps the word "mental" was a poor choice as intelligence has little to do with ones ability to manage doubt and fear and wasn't what I was talking about. Nor do I think that bolts and bold climbing or sport climbers and bold climbing are mutually exclusive.

I wasn't even so much talking about a respect, or lack there of, for a certain style of climbing but more for the people who enjoy climbs that are (for a lack of better phrasing) "heady" and pose as much of a psychological challenge as a physical one. I was talking to the "why not bolt it so everyone can enjoy the climb" crowd. The people who don't understand or respect the fact that for some people the route is much more fun and interesting with out the bolts.

I think there is enough rock for everyone to climb in the style they enjoy and one style should not be sacrificed for the sake of the other.


watchme


Oct 9, 2008, 10:20 AM
Post #16 of 57 (2936 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 26, 2003
Posts: 236

Re: [jmeizis] The Murder of the Impossible [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Modern free climbing is about bringing the climb down to a lower level; bolts or no bolts. As soon as a person top-ropes the hell out of a route (which everyone does now a days under "trad' or sport style) , then leads it (on gear or with bolts), that made the climb easier than trying it ground up with no hangdogging.

It is not a bolt/no bolt issue. Not all bolts go in top down. Some go in free and on lead.


dynosore


Oct 9, 2008, 10:25 AM
Post #17 of 57 (2928 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 29, 2004
Posts: 1768

Re: [jmeizis] The Murder of the Impossible [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Let me be the first (but probably not last) one to chime in and say "Why do you use shoes and gear"? The purest form is free solo, nekkid. Round and round we go.....


IsayAutumn


Oct 9, 2008, 10:50 AM
Post #18 of 57 (2908 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 8, 2008
Posts: 355

Re: [dynosore] The Murder of the Impossible [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Let me be the first (but probably not last) one to chime in and say "Why do you use shoes and gear"? The purest form is free solo, nekkid. Round and round we go.....

To me it seems that this discussion about purity of style is a different discussion altogether. Someone's decision to do a climb barefoot, naked, left-handed, etc., in no way compromises my view of the climb itself, or my ability to attempt/send the climb. However, retrobolting or chipping holds does alter the climb in a lasting way. For all I care, people can climb a route in a space suit, or with knee pads, gloves, and sticky spray for their shoes. I climb for my own enjoyment (whatever that may be), but I like to make sure that I don't affect anyone else's ability to do the same. Adding bolts to a route that was originally done without them changes the climb, IMHO. All this is said with the understanding that ethics may be different, and most surely are, in different parts of the country or world. But for what it's worth, that's the starting point for my personal philosophy on this topic...


zeke_sf


Oct 9, 2008, 11:00 AM
Post #19 of 57 (2897 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18730

Adult Content
This post contains nudity or adult content. To protect the innocent we require that you register and turn off your Adult Content Filter to read it.


thatguyat99


Oct 9, 2008, 11:26 AM
Post #20 of 57 (2869 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 24, 2008
Posts: 121

Re: [IsayAutumn] The Murder of the Impossible [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

 

I like to think the FA (or FA's) of a route are the artists.
The "songwriters" if you will, of that route (song). Other "artists" will sometimes redo a "song" and they may do it with stylistic difference. But the integrity of the original "song" needs to be retained. Don't change the "melody" or the "chord structure" and don't change the "lyrics".


Gmburns2000


Oct 9, 2008, 12:20 PM
Post #21 of 57 (2835 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15253

Re: [thatguyat99] The Murder of the Impossible [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

thatguyat99 wrote:

I like to think the FA (or FA's) of a route are the artists.
The "songwriters" if you will, of that route (song). Other "artists" will sometimes redo a "song" and they may do it with stylistic difference. But the integrity of the original "song" needs to be retained. Don't change the "melody" or the "chord structure" and don't change the "lyrics".

Sigh, well, I don't really want to take away from the main argument, but I have heard this analogy before and I don't buy it. There are perfectly good examples of songs, for instance, that have been covered where the lyrics have been changed, the music represented differently in relation to the original, and / or spun off as a tribute. Some of these covers are great, and some fail miserably, and it goes both ways where when the original song is left intact and / or changed considerably; both can be an artistic successs or failure.

- Bad and probably not art - Lovesong by The Cure covered by 311

- Good and very artistic - Nothing Compares to You by Prince covered by Sinead O'Connor


Where I have a difficult time with this in climbing is that art is meant to be somewhat progressive. There is supposed to be an advancement of the art in order to achieve something meaningful, or else it's just a lump of metal dumped into a pile. Sure, art can look back, but there has to be a reason why it looks back, otherwise it has already been done and therefore, it is irrelevant and not really art.

Just because the FA did something a particular way, that doesn't mean that everyone who follows must follow that precise line, unless everyone else who follows is never considered any kind of "artist." Because doing the same thing is, well, doing the same thing, and there's nothing particularly creative in that.

I'm not saying that folks should be free to retrobolt or chip holds (well, I am kind of saying that, just not advocating it); I'm not really for that (though I do admit that I do lean toward the side of decreasing environmental impact and increasing safety, but I'm not stoutly in favor of those all of the time). I'm just saying that if we hold fast to keeping things the same then we'll eventually have used up any opportunity to change.


notapplicable


Oct 9, 2008, 1:50 PM
Post #22 of 57 (2804 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771

Re: [Gmburns2000] The Murder of the Impossible [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Gmburns2000 wrote:
I'm not saying that folks should be free to retrobolt or chip holds (well, I am kind of saying that, just not advocating it); I'm not really for that (though I do admit that I do lean toward the side of decreasing environmental impact and increasing safety, but I'm not stoutly in favor of those all of the time). I'm just saying that if we hold fast to keeping things the same then we'll eventually have used up any opportunity to change.


WARNING!! Slippery slope ^^here^^.

The over all sport should change and that can and will be reflected in the character of new route development but established climbs are off limits. One of two acception to that is if alterations to the means of protection are made by, or with permission from, the FAist. The only other time I feel its a good idea is if the FAist is not available and the local community is in overall agreement on the changes. Chipping should never happen.


Gmburns2000


Oct 9, 2008, 2:04 PM
Post #23 of 57 (2785 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15253

Re: [notapplicable] The Murder of the Impossible [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

notapplicable wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
I'm not saying that folks should be free to retrobolt or chip holds (well, I am kind of saying that, just not advocating it); I'm not really for that (though I do admit that I do lean toward the side of decreasing environmental impact and increasing safety, but I'm not stoutly in favor of those all of the time). I'm just saying that if we hold fast to keeping things the same then we'll eventually have used up any opportunity to change.


WARNING!! Slippery slope ^^here^^.

The over all sport should change and that can and will be reflected in the character of new route development but established climbs are off limits. One of two acception to that is if alterations to the means of protection are made by, or with permission from, the FAist. The only other time I feel its a good idea is if the FAist is not available and the local community is in overall agreement on the changes. Chipping should never happen.

Yeah, I know it is a slippery slope, and I don't have a definite black-and-white answer, but I wanted to point out that things shouldn't be untouchable once done. That's all.


dingus


Oct 9, 2008, 2:31 PM
Post #24 of 57 (2764 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398

Re: [notapplicable] The Murder of the Impossible [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

notapplicable wrote:
dingus wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
It seems at times that a portion of the climbing population simply does not respect the mental component of the game as much as the physical.

Some of the boldest climbers and most intelligent folks I know are sport climbers.

What more people do not respect is 150 runnouts on overhanging 5.12 choss. Or certainly not the sort of respect that will prompt them to jump on such a route.

DMT


Huh? Perhaps the word "mental" was a poor choice as intelligence has little to do with ones ability to manage doubt and fear and wasn't what I was talking about. Nor do I think that bolts and bold climbing or sport climbers and bold climbing are mutually exclusive.

I wasn't even so much talking about a respect, or lack there of, for a certain style of climbing but more for the people who enjoy climbs that are (for a lack of better phrasing) "heady" and pose as much of a psychological challenge as a physical one. I was talking to the "why not bolt it so everyone can enjoy the climb" crowd. The people who don't understand or respect the fact that for some people the route is much more fun and interesting with out the bolts.

I think there is enough rock for everyone to climb in the style they enjoy and one style should not be sacrificed for the sake of the other.

My only comment is that the vast majority of those who claim to prefer 'heady' climbs only do so on a part time basis and rarely, in practice.

There are very notable exceptions of course.

DMT


quiteatingmysteak


Oct 9, 2008, 2:47 PM
Post #25 of 57 (2746 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 15, 2004
Posts: 804

Re: [dingus] The Murder of the Impossible [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

dingus wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
It seems at times that a portion of the climbing population simply does not respect the mental component of the game as much as the physical.

Some of the boldest climbers and most intelligent folks I know are sport climbers.

What more people do not respect is 150 runnouts on overhanging 5.12 choss. Or certainly not the sort of respect that will prompt them to jump on such a route.

DMT


I gotta disagree on this one, as I don't see it as a sportVStrad debate (version 2.0). Rather, I see it as applicable to lines that CAN go on gear. I am immediately reminded of at least five routes that give this legs:

1. Greenspit. 5.14 euro roof crack bolted, debolted, sent! Not much to discuss, this is the far end of the scale.

2. The Path. 5.14R climbing, probably takes smallish gear, not a climb for mortals. Chopped, re-sent. Getting more grey.

3. East Face of Monkey Face. Again another Sonnie Trotter route. Climbed on teeny tiny nuts by a guy with huge stoppers. Not chopped, Re-Sent.

4. Arcturus FFA. Piz and Anderson added bolts to a crack, which caused a backbreaking fall. Later sent free. Two arguments were used by the party - "It was not a very appealing or difficult aid pitch, so it won't change the difficulty of the aid route" and "We weren't able to get any gear to fit." Sounds a little strange to me.

5. Dihedral Wall. Bolts added to a seam by Skinner, used on the FFA by TC. Probably, Tommy could have done so with less bolts. It reduced the difficulty of the aid pitch (only 40 or so feet of a 3000 foot route, so no huge issue some might say), and is protectable on cruddy gear. Could have fixed a few pins, but is this better than a bolt? Not sure.

We can see things getting more and more blurry. Could the dihedral wall or Arcturus be sent without the bolts? Maybe, we will never know. Could the Path and Greenspit go without bolts? OF COURSE! So the point sits. Adding bolts to a crack, insipiant crack, or even (as one crazy british bastard showed us) the Bachar-Yerian can be avoided.

There is no right-wrong here. Whats important is to take the reality of the future generation with your drill. Will this climb be a mega-classic? Will this choss never see a Second ascent? Are others nipping at the bud to get on this? Case by case logic kills these discussions, so lets embrace it!

First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Climbing Information : General

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook