|
deltav
Oct 11, 2008, 9:05 PM
Post #1 of 33
(2083 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 29, 2005
Posts: 597
|
The other day I saw a guy tine in by wrapping the rope through his harness twice before tying the 8. I have never seen or even heard of this practice. Who else here does that and why?
Thanks,
|
|
|
|
|
Lazlo
Oct 11, 2008, 9:10 PM
Post #2 of 33
(2075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 5079
|
deltav wrote: The other day I saw a guy tine in by wrapping the rope through his harness twice before tying the 8. I have never seen or even heard of this practice. Who else here does that and why? Thanks,
Let me get this straight...
Dude ties the 8 into the rope...
Feeds end of rope through harness...
Then feeds it through again...
Then follows through with the 8 to finish his knot?
...Weird.
|
|
|
|
|
deltav
Oct 11, 2008, 9:13 PM
Post #3 of 33
(2071 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 29, 2005
Posts: 597
|
Correct. I thought it was weird too, but he insisted that he had never seen it done any other way. I think he is from CO. Being an east coast guy, can anyone help me out?
|
|
|
|
|
chossmonkey
Oct 11, 2008, 9:14 PM
Post #4 of 33
(2065 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 1, 2003
Posts: 28414
|
I think some people think that it helps keep the knot from cinching tighter.
|
|
|
|
|
derk424
Oct 11, 2008, 9:17 PM
Post #5 of 33
(2058 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 28, 2008
Posts: 40
|
I have heard of doubling through the harness it's used to absorb a lil bit of the tension created in a 8 knot after a big fall. Another method is to grab the extra rope coming out of the double 8 and follow it over the highest loop and then through the bottom portion. Just helps for removing the knot later.
|
|
|
|
|
ccspikes
Oct 11, 2008, 9:27 PM
Post #6 of 33
(2052 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 15, 2006
Posts: 33
|
I've seen people do this--didn't bother to ask them why.
|
|
|
|
|
jacobs2011
Oct 11, 2008, 9:37 PM
Post #7 of 33
(2046 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2008
Posts: 6
|
It helps in untying after a big fall. I have taken similar falls back to back in the gym both ways and it helps. Not a lot, but it does.
|
|
|
|
|
milesenoell
Oct 11, 2008, 9:43 PM
Post #8 of 33
(2038 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 19, 2006
Posts: 1156
|
So does tying in using a bowline with a yosemite finish. Plus the bowline uses less rope.
As far as I can tell the main (only?) reason for using a figure 8 instead is that it's easier to check the knot.
|
|
|
|
|
tradrenn
Oct 11, 2008, 9:54 PM
Post #9 of 33
(2028 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 16, 2005
Posts: 2990
|
deltav wrote: Who else here does that and why?
I think this is called figure 9 knot by some people.
I did it couple of times and figure it's a waste of time.
Figure 8 - Yosemite Finish is what works for me best.
|
|
|
|
|
coolcat83
Oct 11, 2008, 11:40 PM
Post #10 of 33
(1968 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 27, 2007
Posts: 1007
|
If you put it through twice when you fall doesn't the rope loops pull tight around the tie ins more than if you would just ut it through? seems like it would cause more wear and reduce the pivoting of the rope into the right position.
|
|
|
|
|
deltav
Oct 12, 2008, 12:22 AM
Post #11 of 33
(1942 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 29, 2005
Posts: 597
|
So what I am getting is that this guy doesn't really know what he's talking about?
|
|
|
|
|
milesenoell
Oct 12, 2008, 12:48 AM
Post #12 of 33
(1920 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 19, 2006
Posts: 1156
|
Regardless of whether he knows what he's talking about, it is not necessary (or as standard as a regular figure 8). It sounds like it may help a bit for making the knot easier to untie, but there are other (and likely better) ways of achieving those results.
|
|
|
|
|
coastal_climber
Oct 12, 2008, 3:55 PM
Post #14 of 33
(1810 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 17, 2006
Posts: 2542
|
I think the figure 9 is when tying a figure 8 on a bight and you keep passing the master-point around until you have the correct length.
>Cam
|
|
|
|
|
milesenoell
Oct 12, 2008, 6:15 PM
Post #15 of 33
(1756 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 19, 2006
Posts: 1156
|
If you take a bight and give a half turn and pass the working end through the loop, you have an overhand. Take a bight and give it a full turn and pass the working end through, you have a figure 8. Take a bight and give it a turn and a half, and pass the working end through and you have a figure 9. The extra twist in the middle of a figure 9 makes the knot easier to untie after loading, but is a big honkin' knot that uses several feet of rope. Figure 8 knots can roll or "flip" under load, making it important to leave a tail longer than your knot. Bowlines don't roll, and use a lot less rope. Just make sure to use either a yosemite finish or some other method of securing the loose end. The double bowline is tied on a bight and ends with a loop that can be clipped to your harness with a biner.
|
|
|
|
|
carbonrx8
Oct 12, 2008, 7:01 PM
Post #16 of 33
(1733 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 15, 2006
Posts: 267
|
j_ung wrote: You can use a bowline/dbl bowline, and that works better, anyway. But, I switched to a double bowline for a little while, and I never fell in love with it. Tying in with a fig-8 has a slight calming effect on me that the bowline just doesn't.
A stopper knot is critical with the double bowline where as it is a non issue with the 8. You gotta keep an eye on the double bowline because if the stopper knot comes undone, the bowline will sooner or later, follow. There are documented accidents and anecdotal stories to this effect. I used to use the bowline exclusvly as I tend to weld the 8 on falls. After one scare at the top of a route (on top rope no less) I have discontinued my use of the bowline.
tradrenn wrote: deltav wrote: Who else here does that and why? I think this is called figure 9 knot by some people.
|
|
|
|
|
spikeddem
Oct 12, 2008, 9:05 PM
Post #17 of 33
(1709 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2007
Posts: 6319
|
Wow, there are so many incorrect statements in this thread about knot fundamentals. Most of them have been corrected though.
For anybody that isn't familiar with these knots, please ignore everything in this thread.
|
|
|
|
|
deltav
Oct 12, 2008, 9:46 PM
Post #18 of 33
(1693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 29, 2005
Posts: 597
|
spikeddem wrote: Wow, there are so many incorrect statements in this thread about knot fundamentals. Most of them have been corrected though. For anybody that isn't familiar with these knots, please ignore everything in this thread.
Other than stating that everyone else is wrong, you have done nothing to contribute to the discussion.
|
|
|
|
|
hanginhank
Oct 12, 2008, 9:46 PM
Post #19 of 33
(1693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 28, 2008
Posts: 39
|
I'm pretty sure that a figure 9 is a variation of the figure 8 that results with two loops instead of one.
|
|
|
|
|
climbingaggie03
Oct 12, 2008, 10:18 PM
Post #20 of 33
(1678 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: 1173
|
hanginhank wrote: I'm pretty sure that a figure 9 is a variation of the figure 8 that results with two loops instead of one.
nope that's called a super 8, a figure nine has an extra twist in it, if you take a bight of rope twist it 360 degrees and then pull the end through the loop, you will have a figure 8. If you twist it 540 degree's and pull the end through, you will have a figure 9
|
|
|
|
|
climbingaggie03
Oct 12, 2008, 10:27 PM
Post #21 of 33
(1671 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: 1173
|
milesenoell wrote: If you take a bight and give a half turn and pass the working end through the loop, you have an overhand. Take a bight and give it a full turn and pass the working end through, you have a figure 8. Take a bight and give it a turn and a half, and pass the working end through and you have a figure 9. The extra twist in the middle of a figure 9 makes the knot easier to untie after loading, but is a big honkin' knot that uses several feet of rope. Figure 8 knots can roll or "flip" under load, making it important to leave a tail longer than your knot. Bowlines don't roll, and use a lot less rope. Just make sure to use either a yosemite finish or some other method of securing the loose end.
Agreed
milesenoell wrote: The double bowline is tied on a bight and ends with a loop that can be clipped to your harness with a biner.
just so you know, you can tie a double bowline directly to your harness, I've used it a fair amount and it's kinda a pain to tie, can be hard to check, and has the same posibility of untieing itself as any other bowline (although it might be a little less unlikely because it's threaded through your harness as opposed to being on a biner) The main advantage of this is less bulk and not having a carabiner between you and the rope. (one locker would scare me, two would probably be good, but if I can eliminate them, why not?)
To the OP the double wrap is most commonly used to make the figure 8 knot easier to untie if it holds a hard/multiple fall(s). Apparently opinions vary on it's effectiveness. I use it rarely, but I have a partner that uses it all the time, I haven't noticed any unusual wear on his harness as opposed to mine, but YMMV.
|
|
|
|
|
abe_ascends
Oct 12, 2008, 10:51 PM
Post #22 of 33
(1653 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 18, 2005
Posts: 367
|
tradrenn wrote: deltav wrote: Who else here does that and why? <snip> Figure 8 - Yosemite Finish is what works for me best.
Seconded.
|
|
|
|
|
shockabuku
Oct 12, 2008, 11:11 PM
Post #23 of 33
(1634 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4868
|
milesenoell wrote: The double bowline is tied on a bight and ends with a loop that can be clipped to your harness with a biner.
That sounds like a bowline on a bight except that it should have two loops.
This is the double bowline.
|
|
|
|
|
knudenoggin
Oct 13, 2008, 2:43 AM
Post #24 of 33
(1590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 6, 2004
Posts: 596
|
deltav wrote: spikeddem wrote: Wow, there are so many incorrect statements in this thread about knot fundamentals. Most of them have been corrected though. For anybody that isn't familiar with these knots, please ignore everything in this thread. Other than stating that everyone else is wrong, you have done nothing to contribute to the discussion.
Firstly, it's not just nonsense about knots that's above, but incredible
misinterpretation of the OP, which was double-checked and well stated
by the first respondent: somehow, the rest of the non-reading responders
had little regard for the quite simple (1 sentence!) question!!!
--absolutely appalling.
So, let's put it in bold, now:
...through his harness twice before tying the 8 ...
And Lazlo makes clear in step-wise reiteration:
Dude ties the 8 into the rope...
Feeds end of rope through harness...
Then feeds it through again...
Then follows through with the 8 to finish his knot?
---
OP confirms: "Correct".
This has NOTHING to do with the knot (body), as clearly pointed
out by the first response: through the harness twice, BEFORE ....
Is it a "Fig.9"--geeesh, Google can help you avoid that gaff. But
it's nothing that alters whatever eye-knot was chosen (the same
peculiarity could be done with anything, even Two Half-Hitches,
for that matter). It is not a **knot** aspect.
To the OP, I see nothing to recommend it, and a little to say against it,
concurring in Coolkat's conjecture
In reply to: seems like it would cause more wear and reduce the pivoting of the rope into the right position.
Now, making a (full) 2nd eye--where the end finishes the first eye in passing
through the knot, then makes a 2nd one--, might yield some benefits of
an easier-to-untie knot (in some cases); not sure whether 2 diameters of
rope through the harness will make much difference there (but with two
eyes, the tension on each rope strand will be halved).
In reply to: Figure 8 knots can roll or "flip" under load, making it important to leave a tail longer than your knot. Bowlines don't roll, and use a lot less rope.
only if ring-loaded--i.e., the eye pulled apart, both ends slack--,
as in the case of the offset, abseil-rope-joining versions ("EDK");
and in such loading, no, the Bowline won't roll--it will rapidly pull apart!!
(Unless you've tied it "wrong", with the end on the outside, in a so-called
"Cowboy Bowline" (rabbit goes around the tree the other directions).)
This variant of the simplest such knot, the Overhand, is a good way to
remove vulnerability to ring-loading, and to have a slack-secure yet
easy-to-untie knot. http://i1.tinypic.com/2z3z8ts.jpg
In reply to: Just make sure to use either a yosemite finish or some other method of securing the loose end.
fed back through the main, nipping loop of the mailine. (e.g., End-Bound
Dbl.Bowline). cf http://i3.tinypic.com/wjwh1t.jpg
In reply to: The double bowline is tied on a bight and ends with a loop that can be clipped to your harness with a biner.
the bowline in which one *doubles* the rabbit hole, not the eye; what
you describe is known as the "Bowline on a Bight" (not "bite"). (FYI,
the YoBowl and some similar single-eye bowlines CAN be tied in the
bight--but bight tying is no use when tying in (unless one cares to engage
some comical bringing of a large bight around one's body!).)
>>> This is the double bowline. [URLink to Chockstone's images]
Let me remark that the near universal presentation of the bowline from
THIS side goes a long way to rendering the knot difficult to recognize!
The knot should be presented from the OPPOSITE perspecitve, as done
for the EBDB; it is on that face of the knot that most of the interesting
variations can be clearly seen. (And it is also better for the one-handed
(& similar, quick two-handed) tying method linked to and presented here
http://www.climerware.com/bow.shtml: Karl's image implies that the
rope hangs from above, making step-2 feasible; but in tying in, the rope
will likely be before & gravationally drawn below the tie-in point, and
there having the opposite orientation will see the mainline given support
by the inchoate knot.
*knudeNoggin*
|
|
|
|
|
tradrenn
Oct 13, 2008, 4:45 AM
Post #25 of 33
(1551 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 16, 2005
Posts: 2990
|
knudenoggin wrote: deltav wrote: spikeddem wrote: Wow, there are so many incorrect statements in this thread about knot fundamentals. Most of them have been corrected though. For anybody that isn't familiar with these knots, please ignore everything in this thread. Other than stating that everyone else is wrong, you have done nothing to contribute to the discussion. Well, let me, then. Firstly, it's not just nonsense about knots that's above, but incredible misinterpretation of the OP, which was double-checked and well stated by the first respondent: somehow, the rest of the non-reading responders. <snip>
Well, he did write twice didn't he ?
deltav wrote: The other day I saw a guy tine in by wrapping the rope through his harness twice before tying the 8. I have never seen or even heard of this practice. Who else here does that and why? Thanks,
Therefore I called it Figure 9, which is the wrong name that I used, you are right about that.
I guess you should include yourself in the non-reading group.
HTH.
(This post was edited by tradrenn on Oct 13, 2008, 4:49 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
