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mrdeadpt


Oct 19, 2008, 7:48 PM
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Skinny tag lines for bailing
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I was re-reading an old "tech tip" from a Climbing back issue: The author of the tip was advocating pulling along a static 7mm (yes, SEVEN) tag line (60-65 meters long) to use for full-length raps with the lead line AND to bail-off mid-lead by rapping the thin cord, off your top piece of pro', while being belayed on the lead line through the pro' below, cleaning all but the top piece as you descend. This sounds like a good way to get out of an uncomfortable spot, if you find yourself "in over your head". I started shopping around. Thing is Bluewater sells a 9mm static line--but they don't advocate using it for rappeling. Anyone have experience with this technique? What kind of skinny cord have you used?


altelis


Oct 19, 2008, 8:12 PM
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uni_jim


Oct 19, 2008, 9:16 PM
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mrdeadpt wrote:
Bluewater sells a 9mm static line--but they don't advocate using it for rappeling.

why? cuz its too skinny? how do thoes freaky ice climbers rappel when they are on those 7.5mm twins then?

buy some 7mm accessory cord and just carry some damn gloves!


clc


Oct 19, 2008, 9:57 PM
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Re: [uni_jim] Skinny tag lines for bailing [In reply to]
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the setup you describe sounds goofy getting off a too difficult route. I rap off my double 8mm ice climbing all the time. I just read of Steve house using 5mm cord for rap rope. it might have been spectra?


brownie710


Oct 20, 2008, 7:56 AM
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if your worried about 7 mm just ask Majid about raps with strands of the core of your rope


irregularpanda


Oct 20, 2008, 1:40 PM
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Re: [uni_jim] Skinny tag lines for bailing [In reply to]
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uni_jim wrote:
buy some 7mm accessory cord and just carry some damn gloves!

Or use an autoblock


billl7


Oct 20, 2008, 2:04 PM
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I have a 7mm X 75m static but prefer my 6mm X 60m static if I know the raps are clean. Also, fat chain links work well.

I do/use ...
* EDK tied so skinny must roll over fat for the knot to capsize;
* other end of tag line knotted off to a biner;
* during rap, skinny is stacked in a bag hanging from harness;
* gloves as was said (can't be emphasized enough);
* put knot on skinny side of anchor (pull skinny);
Yesterday, we did three raps this way with the 6mm tag line and a 9.8 lead rope. Not much friction! Used gloves and other techniques to increase friction other than with hands.
Bill


billl7


Oct 20, 2008, 4:16 PM
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As for the backcleaning technique, I believe that the main reason for the backup belay is in case the top pro/rock fails and not in case the static line fails. Regardless, the backup belay is only as good as the next-piece-to-be-cleaned (NPC). Is the NPC way down at the bottom of a "do not fall" zone? Could the NPC have shifted during an earlier fall and so no longer be good for a downward fall?


mrdeadpt


Oct 21, 2008, 4:00 AM
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Re: [billl7] Skinny tag lines for bailing [In reply to]
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I believe you have the idea Billl7, the belay is in case the top piece fails...and yeah, there's all kinds of considerations regarding the pro' below as you back clean on rappel. And yeah, I climb ice and have used skinny doubles. But the idea of a STATIC line as skinny as 7 or even 6mm for a tag/rap line is something I've never considered. I'm interested in knowing what the cord manufacturers have to say about it.

But then again, Petzl doesn't recommend using a Grigri for self belay either--and people do it.


billl7


Oct 21, 2008, 5:15 AM
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Googling a bit for 6 mm static lines, Outdoor Outlet specifically indicates their's is not for rappeling. And Mountain Gear indicates their intended purpose is for hauling.

Bill


altelis


Oct 21, 2008, 5:27 AM
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i wonder if the "not for rappelling" warning has to do with using the rope on its own for rappelling- either not being able to get enough friction with a normal device, increased risk of cutting due to skinny nature of rope (while hauling the rope is moving with relation to the rock and so the same spot isn't being rubbed over and over like with rappelling), etc

whereas if you are using a 6/7 mm tag line as a second line in conjunction with your lead line to rapp there are different forces at work

that being said, i still feel comfortable with this setup regardless of reason manufactures state. IF it is a skinny cord intended for climbing purposes (ie has a rated static load high enough) i think it will be fine. many many climbers use this technique with no problem (which i KNOW isn't reason enough....). there are limitations- KNOW THEM. but also know there are certain reasonable places to push climbing gear beyond the manufacturer's recommendation.

i think about it kinda like with drugs and docs. drugs are only approved for certain indications and drug companies (and their reps) can only tell docs about the uses of the drug for those indications. however a doc is allowed to prescribe any drug for any indication they feel is useful. you see this a lot in oncology where mortality rates are high and other feasible options low

maybe a false analogy, but i still feel it is relatively instructive regardless....


budman


Oct 21, 2008, 6:38 AM
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Re: [billl7] Skinny tag lines for bailing [In reply to]
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If your looking for a 6mm tag/rap rope, Espirt out of Canada has one for the job. Made specifically for rappeling, it's more like a cable and wears well. They don't make lead ropes anymore and tend to produce products for the military and expeditions. You would need to call them direct and order it. Believe it is marketed as The Personal Escape. Own one myself and have done single fixed line rappels. A bit spooky at first.


chossmonkey


Oct 21, 2008, 6:53 AM
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Re: [mrdeadpt] Skinny tag lines for bailing [In reply to]
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mrdeadpt wrote:
I was re-reading an old "tech tip" from a Climbing back issue: The author of the tip was advocating pulling along a static 7mm (yes, SEVEN) tag line (60-65 meters long) to use for full-length raps with the lead line AND to bail-off mid-lead by rapping the thin cord, off your top piece of pro', while being belayed on the lead line through the pro' below, cleaning all but the top piece as you descend. This sounds like a good way to get out of an uncomfortable spot, if you find yourself "in over your head". I started shopping around. Thing is Bluewater sells a 9mm static line--but they don't advocate using it for rappeling. Anyone have experience with this technique? What kind of skinny cord have you used?
If you know how to rig your rope so you can rap on one strand and still retrieve it (as with a Grigri) you could use dental floss as the second line as long as it is strong enough to pull the other rope.


mrdeadpt


Oct 22, 2008, 5:10 PM
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Re: [chossmonkey] Skinny tag lines for bailing [In reply to]
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Hey, you've got a point there: I believe I know the set-up you mean for setting up the single-strand rap: The fat line passed through the anchor, figure-eight on a bight with a 'biner through it and clipped around the main strand. Could this be in common use with guys who use those ridiculously-thin rap lines?


hafilax


Oct 22, 2008, 5:32 PM
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I remember that tech tip. If your tag line is only 60m then for bailing off a route make sure that your are less than 30m from the anchor or take a longer tag line.

The 7mm not for rappelling thing might mean single strand rappels? Maybe single strand isn't full strength? IDK


strider


Oct 23, 2008, 11:08 AM
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Mescalito345


Apr 19, 2009, 8:22 AM
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Where's the best place (online) to buy a 7 mm 60 meter static rope? Thanks.


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