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MikeSaint
Nov 9, 2008, 3:39 AM
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Question for the folks that rope solo using a Soloist.
Let me describe a hypothetical/ idea as I would like some feedback and commentary on the positive/ negative aspects of it.
I have always used my Soloist for top roping but never leading. I have been told a lead fall with a Soloist is hard on the rope, gear and bottom anchor. Under this premise I create the hypothetical below:
Suppose I set up a bottom anchor and that anchor is solid. When the Power Point is established I clip a Yates Screamer to the Power Point. The lead rope would be connected to the screamer. Using a longer runner will be the back up for the screamer.
Excluding the back up, the sequence of the anchor is listed below:
Bomber Anchor
Power Point
Screamer
Lead Line
The idea would be in the event of a lead fall, the screamer would activate first, and taking a bit of that force of out of the system. Ideally making it a little more forgiving during a lead fall?
...So what are your thoughts on that? Anything in particular? Unnecessary? Brilliant? STFU Ya Gunna Die!?11? Green/ Red Arrows?
Thanks
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moose_droppings
Nov 9, 2008, 4:06 AM
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MikeSaint wrote: Question for the folks that rope solo using a Soloist. Let me describe a hypothetical/ idea as I would like some feedback and commentary on the positive/ negative aspects of it. I have always used my Soloist for top roping but never leading. I have been told a lead fall with a Soloist is hard on the rope, gear and bottom anchor. Under this premise I create the hypothetical below: Suppose I set up a bottom anchor and that anchor is solid. When the Power Point is established I clip a Yates Screamer to the Power Point. The lead rope would be connected to the screamer. Using a longer runner will be the back up for the screamer. Excluding the back up, the sequence of the anchor is listed below: Bomber Anchor Power Point Screamer Lead Line The idea would be in the event of a lead fall, the screamer would activate first, and taking a bit of that force of out of the system. Ideally making it a little more forgiving during a lead fall? ...So what are your thoughts on that? Anything in particular? Unnecessary? Brilliant? STFU Ya Gunna Die!?11? Green/ Red Arrows? Thanks
Yeah, that would work.
I've never made a gear anchor for my bottom anchor when roped soloing, always had a bomber tree or boulder near the start of the routes to anchor to so never worried about it on the bottom.
Top of 1st pitch belay and up I'll clip a screamer to the first piece (jesus nut) I can get in right above the belay.
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holdplease2
Nov 9, 2008, 4:44 AM
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Hi:
I've taken solo falls free climbing without a screamer in the system and its a bad idea if there isn't much rope out, hurts like hell which means prolly dangerous.
Also, though, I've took a solo aid fall that blew every screamer on the pitch and the one in my anchor system didn't get deployed.
So much friction in the system means that the one on the anchor may not help you unless you factor two or have very very little rope out and a very hard fall.
Now when I rope solo, I put scream aids in the system, 3 of them, because they deploy at a lower rate. Of course, this is backed up to a knot because these can fail altogether.
-Kate.
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anthonymason
Nov 9, 2008, 4:51 AM
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Mike, the solist is such a inferior piece of crap, it really should be taken off the market.
That said buy a silent partner, same maker, however it is worth every penie, Easy to use and is a great tool for rope-solo-leading. It really will broaden you're view.
Anthony
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MikeSaint
Nov 9, 2008, 3:05 PM
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Unfortunately I already own the Soloist. The device has been great for top roping. Perhaps down the road I'll lead with it though its unlikely.
...
Based on the comments above it wouldnt really hurt to have some screamers on the pieces above the bottom anchor- if only to provide a softer catch?
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moose_droppings
Nov 9, 2008, 4:44 PM
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anthonymason wrote: Mike, the solist is such a inferior piece of crap, it really should be taken off the market. That said buy a silent partner, same maker, however it is worth every penie, Easy to use and is a great tool for rope-solo-leading. It really will broaden you're view. Anthony
Inferior,.... to a few other devices I guess.
Piece of crap,.... hardly.
Taken off the market,....right along with the grigri, figure 8's, aliens, belay loops on harnesses, online blanket statements, etc. etc. etc.
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adamtd
Dec 3, 2008, 4:19 AM
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Mike,
I climb with a soloist on top rope. I too have yet to lead with it, and I don't know if I ever will. Looking at it from a purely technical stance though, the only way the soloist is different from a live belay, is that (1) your belay is a static belay, and (2) the soloist does put stress on the rope where it bites down onto it. Let me expand up on this...
(1) when you are belayed by a live person, they usually move a bit when you fall, absorbing some of the energy. In addition, if you have an experienced belayer, they can even give you dynamic belay purposefully.
(2) When the soloist arrests your fall, it crimps down the rope between the cam and the Soloist's frame. This actually has potential for causing failure of the sheeth, which could be catastrophic, although the lack of teeth on the Soloist's cam is supposed to help prevent this. When I was becoming certified in vertical rope rescue with the fire department, we tried to make a cam (Petzl ascender, same principals though) fail. We were using 1/2" static line. We dropped an 800 lb load approximately 40' (dropped from the anchor, so only a Factor 1 fall, btu on a static line) before we got the sheeth to fail, in which case the load (attached to the sheeth) rode down the rope's core for 10' before stopping.
On another note, let's talk about the forces exerted on you system when you take a lead fall. When you fall, if it were in a frictionless world, you actually create a 2-to-1 mechanical advantage against the piece of protection you're falling on. So if you weigh 200 lb, and fall 10 ft, you are generating 2000 lb (Weight x Height) of force in theory. Your falling body is generating that, and it has to be held by your belayer (again, in our frictionless world). The scary thing, is the piece of protection you are falling on, has to hold 4000 lbs of force due to the 2:1 mechanical advantage applied to it (this happens to be the same forces applied to top rope anchors too, fyi).
So where do you think you need the screamer? I would, and do, place screamers on my protection that I don't feel can hold a significant fall. If you have an extra one, sure place it at the anchor, and do back it up, but I personally wouldn't do it (remember, Keep It Simple Stupid) Thankfully, we don't live in a frictionless world, and we use dynamic ropes as opposed to static ropes, and a lot of energy is lost through friction and the system as a whole. One thing you could do to safe guard yourself even more however, is to find a rope with a longer elongation, and therefore a lower impact force. Lastly, place gear more frequently, minimizing your fall distances. Good luck, have fun, and be smart.
I still live by the golden rule though... The Leader Must Not Fall. If you want a really indepth discussion of this, Climbing Magazine did a series on forces in climbing a few years ago.
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uni_jim
Dec 3, 2008, 4:39 AM
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i have been doing this a little bit with cassin (?) reuseable shock absorbers, and it helps for the first several pices. However, on the later part of the rout, the rope stretch in a fall will make the screamer unnecesary, and you will want to put screamers as extenders on your gear.
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shoo
Dec 3, 2008, 5:07 AM
Post #9 of 14
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adamtd wrote: piece of protection you're falling on. So if you weigh 200 lb, and fall 10 ft, you are generating 2000 lb (Weight x Height) of force in theory. Your falling body is generating that, and it has to be held by your belayer (again, in our frictionless world).
This is completely and utterly wrong.
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majid_sabet
Dec 3, 2008, 5:42 AM
Post #10 of 14
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Registered: Dec 13, 2002
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adamtd wrote: Mike, I climb with a soloist on top rope. I too have yet to lead with it, and I don't know if I ever will. Looking at it from a purely technical stance though, the only way the soloist is different from a live belay, is that (1) your belay is a static belay, and (2) the soloist does put stress on the rope where it bites down onto it. Let me expand up on this... (1) when you are belayed by a live person, they usually move a bit when you fall, absorbing some of the energy. In addition, if you have an experienced belayer, they can even give you dynamic belay purposefully. (2) When the soloist arrests your fall, it crimps down the rope between the cam and the Soloist's frame. This actually has potential for causing failure of the sheeth, which could be catastrophic, although the lack of teeth on the Soloist's cam is supposed to help prevent this. When I was becoming certified in vertical rope rescue with the fire department, we tried to make a cam (Petzl ascender, same principals though) fail. We were using 1/2" static line. We dropped an 800 lb load approximately 40' (dropped from the anchor, so only a Factor 1 fall, btu on a static line) before we got the sheeth to fail, in which case the load (attached to the sheeth) rode down the rope's core for 10' before stopping. On another note, let's talk about the forces exerted on you system when you take a lead fall. When you fall, if it were in a frictionless world, you actually create a 2-to-1 mechanical advantage against the piece of protection you're falling on. So if you weigh 200 lb, and fall 10 ft, you are generating 2000 lb (Weight x Height) of force in theory. Your falling body is generating that, and it has to be held by your belayer (again, in our frictionless world). The scary thing, is the piece of protection you are falling on, has to hold 4000 lbs of force due to the 2:1 mechanical advantage applied to it (this happens to be the same forces applied to top rope anchors too, fyi). So where do you think you need the screamer? I would, and do, place screamers on my protection that I don't feel can hold a significant fall. If you have an extra one, sure place it at the anchor, and do back it up, but I personally wouldn't do it (remember, Keep It Simple Stupid) Thankfully, we don't live in a frictionless world, and we use dynamic ropes as opposed to static ropes, and a lot of energy is lost through friction and the system as a whole. One thing you could do to safe guard yourself even more however, is to find a rope with a longer elongation, and therefore a lower impact force. Lastly, place gear more frequently, minimizing your fall distances. Good luck, have fun, and be smart. I still live by the golden rule though... The Leader Must Not Fall. If you want a really indepth discussion of this, Climbing Magazine did a series on forces in climbing a few years ago.
welcome to RC.
there will be a lot of people watching you
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chossmonkey
Dec 3, 2008, 6:47 PM
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Instead of using a longer runner to back up the screamer I attache the rope to the powerpoint of the anchor and clove hitch the rope with the appropriate amount of slack into the top of the screamer. That uses a couple less pieces of gear and puts more rope in the system when you are low.
The idea of using the aid screamers is a good one. It would still give you a harder catch than if someone was belaying but would be better than a normal screamer.
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dr_feelgood
Dec 3, 2008, 11:05 PM
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Yay! Paragraphs!
Thanks adam!
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xtrmecat
Dec 3, 2008, 11:55 PM
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Mike, please ignore those above that blow the most hot air. Kate is not one of them. I respect all she writes, as it comes from the real world, is honest, and experience generated. That said unless they climb on a soloist and lead their opinion is just that, an opinion.
With all that out of the way, I lead on my soloist almost exclusively. Your idea has good thoughts in principle but I too have found like Kate has that the anchor gets very lilltle pull in a fall with several pieces in, especially with a lot of rope out. I recently took a whipper with my loaded pig and all my rope out and the soloist did not sheath my rope. Scared the shit out of me but the point is the theorists are wrong.
I trust my soloist within it's limits and never hesitate to climb just because there is no partner available. Just remember that you must backup the device as it doesn't catch inverted falls. That is the limitation. I weigh 250 to 265 and my pig on the day of the big air was around 125 or so pounds. The fall was around 50 foot. If it was such a piece of crap my wife would be writing this with a different view on the matter. Not the case.
Don't you live in my neighborhood? I would love to go out and show you my anchors and methods for leading with the soloist, and glean what I may from your methods. It opens up a lot of opportunity for climbing in the less visited parts of the country.
Bob
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kennoyce
Dec 3, 2008, 11:57 PM
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this is just what I was going to say, I don't know where adamtd learned his physics, but it is not even close to being correct. Just to clarify, Force doesn't equal force times distance (just look at the units), but instead equals mass times acceleration. in the case of a falling object stopping, the acceleration is the deceleration caused by the rope. Ropes are rated for a maximum impact force which I believe must be below 12 kN (roughly 2700 lbf) for UIAA certification. this maximum impact force occurs in a factor 1.8 fall with an 80 kg rigid weight. If leading with a soloest, you should never take a fall like this and therefor will never generate forces anywhere near 12 kN, but a screamer is a great idea anyway to help limit these forces. be safe, and as was said earlier, if you want to use a screamer on the bottom anchor, friction in the system will most likely cause this screamer to not activate, so you may want to use a backed up scream aid.
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