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josher
Nov 7, 2002, 7:47 PM
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What about wear. drag aluminum across rock, and you wont see much. Drag a plastic hex across the rock and wont you have a chunk missing (like sand paper). Also, the "filings" dont just go away. making "greasy" holds?
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loren
Nov 7, 2002, 8:04 PM
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"I've got one word for you. Plastic."
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punk
Nov 7, 2002, 8:25 PM
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I cant wait to see them certify by the UIAA and CN once this done I will buy and use with confidence SHEEEEEETZ 60% lighter !!! I don’t care what they are made from all I care that Im not the gunny pig
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drector
Nov 7, 2002, 8:28 PM
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Is nylon a plastic?! We all climb on plastic ropes. It can't be all that bad.
Dave
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boesgaard
Nov 7, 2002, 8:29 PM
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I have no problem beleiving in their strength. But plastic, as far as I know, loses strength from UVA- and UVB rays (the sun). Somebody with chemistry-knowledge can probably confirm if that could actually be a problem.
Its probably not a problem in the short run....
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rocknpowda
Nov 7, 2002, 9:00 PM
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I don't use hexes or nuts that big so they are of no value to me. Keep me posted if they come up with something more useful that's made out of plastic.
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airscape
Nov 7, 2002, 9:01 PM
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I wonder why everyone seems to think of plastic as weak and fragile and soft...
Has anyone ever seen polycarbonate windows?? the kind they use for bulletproofing..
As a matter of fact you can have polyethylene(they make bottles and stuff with) that can be as hard as rock.
And even Nylon(not in the rope form) has a tensile strenght of 76-95Mpa and a yield strenght of 45-83Mpa
And that of aluminium is tensile strenght 90Mpa and yield strenght 35Mpa
Strenght is not a factor when it comes to plastics, neither is softness or durability. All these things can be adjusted it all depends on the type of composites and the types of reinforcements used. There are even aditives for plastics that make them UV resistant...
The only factor I think would be cost, to make an extremely good climbing product out of polymers that would far exceed the specs on metal ones would cost a great deal to produce... But I definatly think that all climbing gear will eventually become plastic, and most other things we use that are metal now.... OR MAYBE EVEN CERAMICS... but thats a topic for a whole new post...
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coldclimb
Nov 7, 2002, 9:19 PM
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I never said plastic isn't strong. What I said was metal is stronger!
Quote:Is nylon a plastic?! We all climb on plastic ropes. It can't be all that bad.
Dave
See, the thing is that yes, we climb on plastic, and yes, it is strong, but cables made from metal are a whole lot stronger. The only problem is weight. We don't want to carry a cable up the mountain, so we use a much weaker, but lighter plastic rope. If they can prove that the weight loss is worth the strength loss, I'll use them, but right now it doesn't appear that this is the case. I'll probably use them if they get certified and are a whole lot cheaper than aluminum, and if they pick better colors, but until then, I'd rather not be caught dead with one of those clipped to my rope.
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billcoe_
Nov 7, 2002, 9:26 PM
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I've climbed with one.
My climbing partner Dave English is looking over my shoulder as I type this. I get to see that ugly bright green stopper one all the time as he bought it when we were at Natimuck-Arapiles, in Austraila over a year ago. He won't take it off his rack.
We both like it a lot. Dave says it is very comparable to the Chouinard square side stoppers (I think they more resemble the old Forest Foxheads) BUT, and we both agree here, the down side is ..do you know the feeling when you take an aluminum stopper and yank it down and it sort of sets (you go Ahhhh)? These don't do that.
Upside, much easier to clean.
You would think with this feature that they would fall out easy, but we haven't seen that to be the case. Of course, we have been climbing together for @ 20 some years and rarely have any pieces fall out any more. Of course, they are big pieces too which helps, and we both are into carrying a lot of runners.
I was very dubious when he bought this. It was cheap $$ and felt that way too. (The prices on the web site are in Austrailian, last year you could divide by 2 to get the US cost. But it is quite a nifty piece. It works great and looks like it tests out fine, the cable would probably break before the nut. Have not ever fallen on one. We rarely fall on pro though.
Dave says that he hauled it up 1/2 Dome NW face last month and they found a lot of placements for it. When your old and slow (Dean Potter passed them when they were "camped" in the chimneys! ) every ounce counts. Thats why I have a rack of Petzel biners and may toss those out for something lighter as well. Daves 1/2 Dome partner, Andrew, started inventing plastic nuts a long time ago. I remember him cutting off an end of a frying pan handle and threading it to make a nut, and trying various casting crap. He use to try to get me to carry that crap and I refused, anyway, Andrew is a brilliant guy and an inventor at heart: he loves the plastic nut Dave hauled home from Austraila.
Anyway, thought you all would appreciate the beta on this. I like it, but alum stoppers have a slight edge in my heart, perhaps because that is what I have grown up with and am familiar with.
Regards:
Bill
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daryl512
Nov 7, 2002, 9:57 PM
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WOW! you guys seem to be a bit behind the times. Those plastic nuts and hexes have been out for a few years now. I have the set of plastic nuts and plan on buying the hexes from a friend sometime this millenium.
Here's the scoop. Yes they are quite a bit larger than everything else on the market but suprisingly you can find ALOT of great placements for them. Because they are plastic the bight really well (and hold even better) but are a bitch to clean if you fall on them. They have a small ammount of strech to them when weighted which I think is the biggest reason why they're sooo hard to clean but these things are absolutley bomber even in much less than ideal placements.
Daryl
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stevematthys
Nov 7, 2002, 11:41 PM
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hmm. i must be behind the times as well, i have never heard of them.
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phil_nev
Nov 8, 2002, 2:21 PM
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ahhh.... No thanks!
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data118
Nov 8, 2002, 2:33 PM
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No thanks for me also. I like the sound my metal nuts and hexes make when I'm walking or climbing.
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billcoe_
Nov 8, 2002, 7:55 PM
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I could really see a rack of these having a huge advantage on a wall where 150 lbs of metal (or whatever it is) pulling on your neck all day starts to suck. Any long trad it seems like you carry lots of gear, and the weight reduction would be important.
daryl512, what you are describing sounds different than my experience with Daves green one. Do you have the same brand, and were you able to pick it up in the states? Where can you get them, I've not seen them for sale over hear yet?
Regards:
Bill
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jeejo
Nov 10, 2002, 10:59 PM
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Hi Guys
My name is John Marshall and I run Jeejo Climbing , the site supplying poly hexes.
I use them myself and have great confidence in them. overall they are slightly less in weight tham their metal counterparts and are virtually indestructable. The company who makes them took approx. two years of trials with the right poly carbs and extensive testing before releasing them to the market. They are applying for certification worldwide so they can be retailled in other countries other than Aust and NZ. But you can still purchase off the web. The colours are rather grand but who cares most of us are fairly easily seen on the rock anyway. They do tend to grip well in all rock but so far I haven't had any major problems releasing them.
Prices were all in Aust dollars and comparable with all metal hexes.
Cheers
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bradbaker
Nov 12, 2002, 3:53 PM
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John (at Jeejo)-
Adding a secure method of submitting orders via the web would help increase your sales. I would have already ordered some poly hexes and/or nuts if the web site provided a secure credit card payment option. The WILL CALL option isn't nearly as appealing due to the costs incurred by the buyer and the time spent on the phone completing the order.
Brad Baker
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biggernhell
Nov 12, 2002, 4:20 PM
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The strength issue does not phase me a bit. I'm sure that they are plenty strong and very light. The only thing I see as a problem is duability. If they are plastic, bite well, and sometimes difficult to clean, does this mean that when removed you have small bits of plastic in the crack, thus rendering is a bit more slippery for the next guy who trys to jam there?
I heard a interview with Yvon Chouinard just this morning and the one thing that stuck in my mind was that after he stopped making pitons he decided to never put a product out on the market without looking into all of the consequences, no matter how unintended.
So are they going to slick up granite cracks if used too much?
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billcoe_
Nov 12, 2002, 8:52 PM
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John: ditto on the secure ordering thing. Austraila is a long way to go for us US climbers to buy anything. Otherwise, you might consider US distributors.
Biggernhell: Regarding your question "So are they going to slick up granite cracks if used too much?"
Are you saying YOU would not use them if that is the case? Or that Chouinard would not use them?
Frankly, I do not think they would slick up the rock at all.
But if you answered NO to the question: IE, YOU would buy them anyway if they slicked up the rock, could you advise us of what brand shoes you wear? I've noticed that ALL brands gradually slick up the rock. Including the Scarpas that BD distributes. Perhaps you have found something better, please share!
Regards all:
Bill
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klimberbob
Nov 12, 2002, 10:15 PM
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at least someone out there who has actually used them has commented! i have only seen them in the natimuk shop at araps in australia. feel cool to play with, and definatly lighter than regular alloy pro, which is always good only down side i have heard is the cleaning thing - but then if you take a whipper on a regular nut, they can also be pretty hard to clean
i can't wait till they start making plastic cams, and seeing the debate THAT causes
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tanner
Nov 12, 2002, 11:05 PM
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If they where aproved I would use them for sure. If they felt good to place that is. The weight reductioin of plastic pro would be really cool as well I like the colors. Its faster to ID the right nut.
Plastic could be the best for pro.
As for the retard that said that climbers would use cables to climb if it wasn't for the weight. I hope I read that comment wrong.
Rope has give, cable no give.
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paulc
Nov 12, 2002, 11:24 PM
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Airscape;
Back a while ago you mentioned carbon fiber gear. Won't happen. Here's why.
Carbon fiber is great stuff, strong light, but not that hardy. If you scratch it especially across the grain then it basically falls apart. Obviously this causes issues with climbing gear as it tends to get beat on pretty good even if you take good care of it.
Now plastic I don't know about. Without knowing more details about the composite that they are using I am not going to comment.
Paul
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wlderdude
Nov 13, 2002, 1:55 AM
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That's right.
Carbon fiber is strong and stiff, but also very brittle. Brittle failure is not the failure mode for climbing gear, so you will likely not be seeing any life supporting carbon fiber climibing gear any time soon.
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airscape
Nov 13, 2002, 2:10 AM
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I was not referring to the carbon fibre which is used in general, there are other composites where carbon fibre is used that makes it extremely strong and durable, where they use it as a fibre reinforcement for polymers.
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curt
Nov 13, 2002, 2:45 AM
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This is clearly the way of the future. Any of you try to carry-on your climbing gear when flying these days? (I mean since 09/11/01?) This plastic stuff is stealth gear, it won't show up on radar or in x-rays. Its just what we need to avoid that "special line" for "unusual people" that carry "suspicious objects" through airport security.
Curt
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nite_climber
Nov 16, 2002, 9:40 PM
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Good idea! I love the new, different and rad stuff! Hopefully they can get it CE/UIAA certified so we can start purchasing it in the US.
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