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tacomaster


Nov 29, 2008, 4:37 PM
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need camera help
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hey ive been climbing for about 2 years now and ive been wanting to buy a nice camera and start taking pictures. I just dont know what kinda camera i should be looking for. I have about $500-700. I would like a camera that is pretty high end and has that one feature that takes alot of photos really fast. thanks for the help


blondgecko
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Nov 29, 2008, 4:52 PM
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Define "really fast"...

Your price range should just get you in to the bottom end of the SLR market, with kit lenses. I'll let others argue over which is best - my opinion is that they're all pretty damn good these days. Most will take at least a couple of frames a second for a dozen shots or so (at max resolution - more at reduced res).


tacomaster


Nov 29, 2008, 4:55 PM
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i was just looking into EOS Rebel XS and the PowerShot SX10 IS, how are those for climbing pictures? or is there something better around that price


(This post was edited by tacomaster on Nov 29, 2008, 4:58 PM)


USnavy


Nov 29, 2008, 6:32 PM
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Re: [tacomaster] need camera help [In reply to]
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My Canon 40D can do 6.5 FPS for atleast 130 pictures straight with a high speed CF card (120 mbps). But thats more like $1,300.


pico23


Nov 29, 2008, 10:58 PM
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Re: [blondgecko] need camera help [In reply to]
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blondgecko wrote:
Define "really fast"...

Your price range should just get you in to the bottom end of the SLR market, with kit lenses. I'll let others argue over which is best - my opinion is that they're all pretty damn good these days. Most will take at least a couple of frames a second for a dozen shots or so (at max resolution - more at reduced res).

$500-700 ain't much. High end to me wouldn't start before the $1300 range for your needs. And then you need quality glass, and that is where the real money and INVESTMENT is.

Although the tech behind these cameras has slowed down, they will continue to push the envelope and trickle down tech to sell more cameras. So it's not impossible that really fast at $700 is more than a year or two away.

My advice is to look for a used camera 1-2 years old in the brand you will be sticking with. Then add glass and upgrade in 1-2 years!

If not either the Olmypus E3, Nikon D300, or Canon 50D should suit your needs in current models but at 2x your budget with or without a lens!

Oh, edited to add, Casio makes a high speed still camera. It's not an SLR but might be what you need. I don't know a ton about it because it's not the type ofcamera I keep up with, but they have two models advertised on PopPhoto! One shoots 30fps, and the other 60fps. HD Video is like 21fps, with high end graphics done at as much as 30-60fps on computer games as a reference point!


(This post was edited by pico23 on Nov 29, 2008, 11:04 PM)


pico23


Nov 29, 2008, 11:51 PM
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Here is the link to the reference above:

http://www.casio.com/products/Cameras/High_Speed_EXILIM/

There is also a nice write up on the EFX 1 on Luminous landscape.

What I like about Luminous landscape is the reviews are by photographers about how the cameras handle in the real world, and not in a lab. So this review/info page should give you what you need to help make a choice!

And as far as the Rebel XS, it's painfully slow in RAW, and slow in JPEG. (3fps max JPEG, 1fps in RAW).


(This post was edited by pico23 on Nov 29, 2008, 11:56 PM)


knudenoggin


Dec 1, 2008, 9:38 PM
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Re: [tacomaster] need camera help [In reply to]
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"high end" and "$500-700" don't go together, unless you're talking about
P&S/compact cameras. (E.g., an older Canon 5D with a high-rated
24-105 L lens was offered & finally sold for $2,100, and that was a
deal!)

Of the P&S compacts, the ones latest at the top of the heap in
reviews & raves seem to be the Panasonic LX-3 & Canon G10; there
are reviews on-line of each, and head-to-head comparisons. (And one
can be mystified at how the G10 e.g. is at one review called nearly equal
to a $40_000 mid-format Hasselblad and elsewhere found a hair shy of
the LX-3 and neither equal to, well, $500-700 dSLRs (which of course
are no way near the Hasselblad)!) The LX-3 has some "movie mode".
But, as has already been asked, defined "fast". (A recent Rock & Ice
mag. has a sequence of I guess max-fps shots made from a Nikon D40
("x"?) of a guy taking a hard (head-first) fall.)

The D40 has been a very well received dSLR in your price range.
Current prices are lowest I've seen; but then some of the 2-lens deals
include the non-VR (vibe.reduction) lenses, and you'd want VR in at
least the longer one (55-200mm). The D60, OTOH, seems to be
shipping with VR in both the kit 18-55mm & the telephoto, and at
around $750. But dSLRs are much bigger than compacts, which might
be a concern if you want to take them UP with you. You can find fine
shots taken from all sorts of cameras. Might depend on how much
post-processing you want to do, or whether OutOfCamera JPEGs are
desired most.

--lots of choices! And, remember, they'll all be cheaper next year!
(eBay can be your answer?)

Wink


pico23


Dec 1, 2008, 10:28 PM
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knudenoggin wrote:

to a $40_000 mid-format Hasselblad and elsewhere found a hair shy of
the LX-3 and neither equal to, well, $500-700 dSLRs
--lots of choices! And, remember, they'll all be cheaper next year!
(eBay can be your answer?)

Wink

Nice post.

No idea how the G10 even equals an 2003 6MP DSLR, let a lone a $40,000 camera. The Canon 1Ds doesn't equal the Hasselblad so I'm really confused. Maybe they were joking? God I hope they were!

DPreview was GRACIOUS to the G10, and still said it was just not a great camera in the real world where ISO 80 is not something you can use all the time.

BTW, has anyone noticed since Amazon bought dpreview.com the reviews have gotten a bit more truthful and less overall shiny?

Noise wise it's horrible, resolution wise it doesn't live up to the pixel count.

Oddly, Dpreview said what I was thinking after shooting a G10 and handling a LX3...put the LX3 internals and LENS in a G10 and you have an amazing camera!!! The LX3 lens is way faster, way sharper. The sensor is bigger and better made, with fewer pixels!

The G series IMO opinion has gone downhill since my G3. SLower lenses, more pixels (and more noise), less detail!

Personally, I still think for the price, the best camera you can buy used is the Olympus E-1. Built like the Nikon D1/2/3 series, and weather sealed. The battery last 1000 frames!! It only shoots 3fps (but that includes RAW) and it has a respectable 12 RAW buffer. The new cameras like the D40/Rebel (and lower end Oly, Pentax, Sony's) all have 3-5 frame buffers in RAW and some don't shoot at full FPS in RAW!

Everything about it was top notch. And it sells used for under $500. Buy some glass while shooting that, and eventually upgrade to an E-3. Same quality build but with 5FPS, and with an SWD weather sealed lens the fastest AF of any DSLR!!!

A few reasons I like the E1:

Solid build (among the very best)
fully sealed
dust reduction and pixel mapping
spot meter
focus assist light (not tied to the flash like the lower end cameras)
100% viewfinder coverage
internal eye shutter for long exposures
etc, etc.

basically it's about 10X the camera of a basic entry level DSLR. Downsides are it's older and high ISO noise like any older camera are poor. It's still WAY better than a compact of which most are completely useless above ISO200-400!!!

And as I've noted before the register distance for lens mount on Oly DSLRs a is relatively long. Meaning you can mount just about any brand lens to the Oly with an adapter!


knudenoggin


Dec 2, 2008, 10:18 AM
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Maybe the main point of this spill of (photog) forum chatter from LL is not
the promo of a particular camera (Canon G10), but evidence point blank
of how varied reviews & user chatter can be about something, which one
would think couldn't be so variously received!

And re that--esp. in light of some explicit reports such as "... so I had to
return the first two, but the THIRD copy [of a lens, here] I got was perfect!"
I think that ...
If the reviews specified "Item Make-Model SERIAL #nnn was ...",
it might drive home that point. I.e., could be the opposing views are both
correct--HER camera works beautifully, and HIS sucks, though both are
ostensibly the same.

pico23 wrote:
No idea how the G10 even equals an 2003 6MP DSLR, let a lone a $40,000 camera. The Canon 1Ds doesn't equal the Hasselblad so I'm really confused. Maybe they were joking? God I hope they were!

The now famous article is on Luminous-Landscape.com, entitled (aptly)
"You've Got to be Kidding!". The author, He Who Runs L-L, reports taking
pics almost by whimsy/WhyNot? w/G10 as he did work w/Hasselblad, and
later was amazed at (RAW) files, and arranged a sort of competitoin w/Hassy
output for a gathered group of well-informed-in-photography industry
friends to judge,
and that the best selector only got 60% right (re which was from what)!
--avg. overall was 50-50. And from that site's forum about this very
issue of G10 quality, at http://uminous-landscape.com/....php?showtopic=29769
comes a reply--among several defending the G10 as quite good--:
In reply to:
I bought a G10 after reading Michael's review. I also own a Mamiya-Phase P45+. On balance I'd say it was an accurate review.
---[SAME FELLOW, later]
I have printed 44" wide several times from my G10. It can take it, but needs careful handling in shooting and post. ISO 100 is just about the highest you really want to push it, the noise pattern is ugly if you can see it.
Used the right way, in the hands of someone who knows what he's doing, like Michael, the G10 can deliver astonishing results. So can any other camera above $500.
ALSO:
My experience is that it's an incredible camera; I also found that the LX3 was not superior to the G10 on noise. I haven't looked at the DP Review article, but my recollection from the past is that a lot of DP Review's analysis is based on comparing JPEGs. I only shoot raw. I find that the G10 at iso 400, shot raw, is very good using DPP's limited RAW controls, and excellent using Lightroom's much better sharpening and noise suppression options.
So my experiences are far from those of DP Review. Thom Hogan's comparison and conclusion (bythom.com) is similar to [Lum-Lan's] Reichman's.
AND, I.P. RE CANON'S TOP GUN 1Ds MkIII:
I have a G10 and a 1Ds MKIII and shoot in RAW. The G10 is a great wee camera. It can take shots impossible with the big camera. Macro with subjects 1 inch from the lens, hand held at 1/10 sec because of no mirror bounce, superb bright LCD screen with resolution approaching the iPhone, really sharp lens at both wide and tele, and it has a great fully adjustable flash for casual shots (try taking casual shots with a 1Ds MKIII).
The G9 which I replaced was pretty good but I always wished I had taken the shot, especially tele shots, with the big camera. Not so with the G10. There is a touch of noise at 80 and 100ASA on blue skies which you can see at 100% on a monitor and 400ASA shows definite noise on screen especially after sharpening. However if you are into making prints up to 11 x 14 the quality is superb and noise is not a problem. 800ASA is fine for stuff on the web up to 800px wide and 1600ASA is unquestionably coarse. There's stuff it's no use at such as sport, action or anything requiring a modest or fast frame rate (it's slow to write to file and it can seem like an awful long wait until you can fire the shutter again).
So stop peering at reviews and pontificating about whose review is most accurate. If you want to make great prints and upload superb images to the web go and buy one - it will help the economy. But if you are only going to do endless pixel peeping on your monitor at 100% you really should be looking at medium format !!

So, along w/Thom Hogan's alleged favorable review, there's much in favor.

In reply to:
BTW, has anyone noticed since Amazon bought dpreview.com the reviews have gotten a bit more truthful and less overall shiny?
Ack, didn't know about ownership (bigger is worse)-: but I'd expect just
the opposite--that a SELLING org. would want much glow (buy all)!?

In reply to:
Oddly, Dpreview said what I was thinking after shooting a G10 and handling a LX3...put the LX3 internals and LENS in a G10 and you have an amazing camera!!! The LX3 lens is way faster, way sharper. The sensor is bigger and better made, with fewer pixels!
WHY enLARGE the LX-3 (which is significantly smaller than G10, yes?
What concerns me re LX-3 is no-viewfinder (add-on optional cost):
I find trying to SEE my D40's bright big monitor in sunlight pretty hard;
I'd not want to have to do that for composition!

In reply to:
[G10]... more pixels (and more noise), less detail!

Btw, post#16 in LL thread linked above has itself two links to side-by-side
photos by G10 vs. Nikon D2x w/24-70, w/impressive and intersting restults
--notably to me the decline of sharpness from G10's f/2.8 to /8 !

In reply to:
Personally, I stll think for the price, the best camera you can buy used is the Olympus E-1. Built like the Nikon D1/2/3 series, and weather sealed.

Okay, to eBay etc. and search for that!
(just read somewhere that a lens test of some Oly Zuiko gem rated it as
peerless !)
I've seen some sort of pseudo-weather-guard rubber armor on Nikons Dxxx.

Unimpressed


pico23


Dec 2, 2008, 11:18 AM
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All good points.

But then I always say that in the right hands any camera is A-Ok.

There are tricks, and knowledge to squeezing everything from a camera.

But they do note that the G10 is USELESS over ISO 100. For me, while I rarely shoot over ISO 200-400 with my DSLR or SLR, or any camera...pocket cams that are restricted to ISO 100 is not a good thing. Afterall you are using them to take shots you couldn't take with the big boy!

I think the opposite on DPreview. The purchase by amazon means they aren't slave to small advertising revenues, and ALL cameras are sold on Amazon so either way amazon wins!

I believe dpreview actually uses a RAW comparison of overall image quality now, as does PopPhoto. It's a standardized test they explain somewhere on both sites.

But then I just posted a thread about the RAW capabilities of each camera, and people said it was worthless...Just shows you that you cannot please all the people all the time.

Zuiko lenses are awesome, but expensive. Then again you get what you pay for! However, keep in mind that you can mount anything to an Oly with glassless adapters (as long as the lens controls aperture so no EOS, no newer Nikon, and no Pentax DA), but anything with an aperture ring, including Canon FD, and non AF-S Nikon can be mounted!!! The point is a $500 Oly E-1 and you can scour Ebay or any used camera shop for "cult classic" lenses and perhaps have the best glass ever made on that camera!

A 180mm 2.8 sharp as nails Nikon goes for less than $200 but becomes a 360mm 2.8 on the E-1!!!

However, Nikon is a reasonable option too. You could buy a D40 with the idea of upgrading to a D300/D400 down the road, the D300 has a faster frame rate with the grip (without it too). Those are weather sealed as well. I've personally been on the fence about the D300 or D700...big price difference, and I'll be using it at the telephoto exclusively for sports. I don't use my Nikon gear in the real world, just for sports and events so FF really is meaningless!

Of course the Oly E-3 still gives more, like 100% viewfinder and image stabilization in the camera. Plus, not to mention the ability to use millions of current lenses (with stabilization!). And one of the best (if not the best) live view in the business!

In terms of LX3 vs. G10. The size of the G10 is still smaller than an SLR. So enlarging the LX3 to G10 size could be a bonus. The controls on the LX3 stink. The G series and the A series from Canon have always been the best controlled cameras on the market. Only ones I think are better are the Ricoh GRD GX100/200. But for the price of those, I'll have to pass!

The lack of viewfinder on the LX3 is a serious omission. And another reason the Canon ergonomics are better!

So I'm still in the market for the perfect point and shoot! The Panosonic G1 with the Micro 4/3 system is interesting but the more that is revealed about it, the less I am impressed.

Size wise it's only a little smaller than a E-420 or D40, and the lenses are only a little smaller than Pentax DA Limited primes. And the Panasonic Micro 4/3 stabilized lenses are actually bigger than some camera stabilized zooms! So what are you really getting? A mirrorless SLR? There are pros to that of course but cons as well!


knudenoggin


Dec 2, 2008, 4:29 PM
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pico23 wrote:
But they do note that the G10 is USELESS over ISO 100.

No, actually they don't--the quotes are above, for re-reading.
(emphasis on **useless**, mind)
And there are differences between when one would be in these low ISOs
for P&S vs. say a base & lowest ISO 200 for the D40, so one shouldn't
lock on the nominal values.

*kN*


guangzhou


Dec 2, 2008, 4:32 PM
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tacomaster wrote:
hey ive been climbing for about 2 years now and ive been wanting to buy a nice camera and start taking pictures. I just dont know what kinda camera i should be looking for. I have about $500-700. I would like a camera that is pretty high end and has that one feature that takes alot of photos really fast. thanks for the help

You can buy a Nikon D80 for that price range these days. Not a high end camera, but it's threated me well. About 70% of my images on Alamy.com (search Emmanuel Lacoste) were shot with the D80. Most of the rest were shot with a D70 and the newest are shot with the D90. (Just bought it)

Hope that helps,
Eman

Dell.com had D80 a couple weeks ago.


curtis_g


Dec 2, 2008, 5:06 PM
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Nikon D40 and a fisheye lens.

Both together will keep you in your range.

If this is your first SLR or DSLR you won't find any use for the D60 or D80 over the D40 and save a lot of $$$.

If you're not printing glossy full page or bigger spreads for a mag. you will not find a difference between 6.1 MPixels or 10+ MPixels.

The D60 has the same body, just a higher MP card crammed into the same space. How do they do it? Make the card smaller. How? Make the pixels smaller. But don't smaller pixels have less resolution? Exactly.

Nikon D40 and a fisheye for some sweet climbing shots. Bounce flash (SB200?) for like $100 if you have the money.


pico23


Dec 2, 2008, 11:59 PM
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knudenoggin wrote:
pico23 wrote:
But they do note that the G10 is USELESS over ISO 100.

No, actually they don't--the quotes are above, for re-reading.
(emphasis on **useless**, mind)
And there are differences between when one would be in these low ISOs
for P&S vs. say a base & lowest ISO 200 for the D40, so one shouldn't
lock on the nominal values.

*kN*

Fair point.

But nevertheless, for me, these cameras have gone backwards. Nikon showed what was possible stepping back and dropping pixels! Noise at ISO 100 is unacceptable to me. I mean consider if your stuck at ISO 100, why not just shoot slide film? I love Provia 100F and it will blow away the G10 at ISO 100 in the real world!

Hopefully, the other brands will follow and actually advance IQ rather than just push pixels.

At least that is my hope!!! Until then I've given up on pocket cams. I'm awaiting micro 4/3s though, possibly the panacea to small sensor pixel cramming!


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